5 ms·

I'm reminded of this famous piece by A.J.P. Taylor: 'Until August 1914 a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existen

by wtbob 10y ago

I'm reminded of this famous piece by A.J.P. Taylor: 'Until August 1914 a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existence of the state, beyond the post office and the policeman. He could live where he liked and as he liked. He had no official number or identity card. He could travel abroad or leave his country for ever without a passport or any sort of official permission. He could exchange his money for any other currency without restriction or limit. He could buy goods from any country in the world on the same terms as he bought goods at home. For that matter, a foreigner could spend his life in this country without permit and without informing the police.' It's hard to believe how much we've given up.

anovikov 10y ago
It's simply a replacement of informal barriers with formal ones, plus compensation of the lowering of travel and communication costs due to technology: someone who traveled abroad in the XIXth century was either well-off so he would pass any currently existing barriers easily, or really really needed it so he would do it, too. With international air ticket worth less than a good meal, some other barrier had to be constructed or all modern nations would be quickly razed by influx of billions destitute immigrants.
- mynameislegion 10y ago
  Even in modern times, international air tickets are more expensive and worldwide wages lower than you imagine.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    Perhaps, but there are other options -- international bus tickets are pretty cheap. So is the ferry between, for example, Morocco and Spain. Plenty of people could afford this, or have friends/relatives in wealthy countries who could pay for them.
    - goblin89 10y ago
      It is actually easier to visit some countries by air today. Visa on arrival, visa-free transit or stay—these options can be available only at airports. Passport control as immigration regulation/deterrent definitely rings true to me, and some countries see less need for it with richer travelers.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  > With international air ticket worth less than a good meal Jesus Christ, where are you getting your lunch from?
  - ghaff 10y ago
    Low-cost carrier airfares within Europe can be quite cheap. Obviously most international flights from, say, the US are going to be in at least the hundreds of dollars.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - frobozz 10y ago
    Ryanair, I guess. Verona to Brussels is 8 Euros. A "meal deal" on the plane is 10.
    - chrischen 10y ago
      Why doesn't the US have such fares?
      - Symbiote 10y ago
        These fares do require decent flexibility -- for tourist destinations, you won't be leaving on a Friday and returning on Sunday. The £4.49 flight between London and Romania is on a Wednesday, on a Friday it's £60-70. Ryanair use the low fares for marketing, pretty successfully. They probably expect many people to add luggage (£10-40, depending on route), or buy food on the plane (£10+) or be disorganized and end up paying more. In Western/Northern Europe they use out-of-the-way airports -- London Stansted is 47 minutes by the fastest train from London, or over an hour by car. They have a reputation for reducing the fees they pay the airport by threatening to move to alternative airports, unless they're given a very good deal. People walk to the plane, they don't use jet bridges. The whole plane is economy class, and the seats plasticy-fake-leather, which must speed up cleaning. At airports, they'll usually use the worst (farthest) gates. All the planes are the same, so maintenance is simplified and pilots easily moved around. As to why the US doesn't have them -- I don't know. Norwegian is a budget airline, and has fares like New York to Paris for $175 one way (Tuesday, no luggage, no food!).
- abecedarius 10y ago
  > or really really needed it so he would [pass barriers easily], too A lot of European Jews in the 1930s were trying and failing to emigrate, in a system pretty much like today's (plus the unusual bonus that their home state wanted them to leave). https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007455 https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007455
jfoster 10y ago
That said, I think it's worth pointing out that in 1914, the means to travel didn't exist as it does today. We've given up some freedom but made gains on capability.
- Houshalter 10y ago
  But the artificial barriers we've put up are much more restrictive than the old barriers. Perhaps we should make an immigration tax, and anyone can enter if they are willing to pay $10,000. Or some arbitrarily high, but feasible, amount.
  - rst 10y ago
    These are called investors' visas, and already exist, though the prices are much steeper: $1 million investment in a new business for an American EB-5; 2 million pounds for the British equivalent. Payment doesn't go directly to the government; instead, it's supposed to be invested in a new business that creates at least ten jobs. But there are middlemen who offer the service of actually setting up and managing the business: http://fortune.com/2014/07/24/immigration-eb-5-visa-for-sale/ http://fortune.com/2014/07/24/immigration-eb-5-visa-for-sale...
s_kilk 10y ago
> It's hard to believe how much we've given up. It's weird, for all our progress, our world is more locked down and restricted than ever before.
thisrod 10y ago
Let's not get too nostalgic. The operative words there are "English man": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Restriction_Act_1901 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Restriction_Act_... Or at least someone with a good enough accent to pass for one.

by wtbob 10y ago

anovikov 10y ago

It's simply a replacement of informal barriers with formal ones, plus compensation of the lowering of travel and communication costs due to technology: someone who traveled abroad in the XIXth century was either well-off so he would pass any currently existing barriers easily, or really really needed it so he would do it, too. With international air ticket worth less than a good meal, some other barrier had to be constructed or all modern nations would be quickly razed by influx of billions destitute immigrants.

mynameislegion 10y ago
Even in modern times, international air tickets are more expensive and worldwide wages lower than you imagine.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  Perhaps, but there are other options -- international bus tickets are pretty cheap. So is the ferry between, for example, Morocco and Spain. Plenty of people could afford this, or have friends/relatives in wealthy countries who could pay for them.
  - goblin89 10y ago
    It is actually easier to visit some countries by air today. Visa on arrival, visa-free transit or stay—these options can be available only at airports. Passport control as immigration regulation/deterrent definitely rings true to me, and some countries see less need for it with richer travelers.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
> With international air ticket worth less than a good meal Jesus Christ, where are you getting your lunch from?
- ghaff 10y ago
  Low-cost carrier airfares within Europe can be quite cheap. Obviously most international flights from, say, the US are going to be in at least the hundreds of dollars.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- frobozz 10y ago
  Ryanair, I guess. Verona to Brussels is 8 Euros. A "meal deal" on the plane is 10.
  - chrischen 10y ago
    Why doesn't the US have such fares?
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      These fares do require decent flexibility -- for tourist destinations, you won't be leaving on a Friday and returning on Sunday. The £4.49 flight between London and Romania is on a Wednesday, on a Friday it's £60-70. Ryanair use the low fares for marketing, pretty successfully. They probably expect many people to add luggage (£10-40, depending on route), or buy food on the plane (£10+) or be disorganized and end up paying more. In Western/Northern Europe they use out-of-the-way airports -- London Stansted is 47 minutes by the fastest train from London, or over an hour by car. They have a reputation for reducing the fees they pay the airport by threatening to move to alternative airports, unless they're given a very good deal. People walk to the plane, they don't use jet bridges. The whole plane is economy class, and the seats plasticy-fake-leather, which must speed up cleaning. At airports, they'll usually use the worst (farthest) gates. All the planes are the same, so maintenance is simplified and pilots easily moved around. As to why the US doesn't have them -- I don't know. Norwegian is a budget airline, and has fares like New York to Paris for $175 one way (Tuesday, no luggage, no food!).
abecedarius 10y ago
> or really really needed it so he would [pass barriers easily], too A lot of European Jews in the 1930s were trying and failing to emigrate, in a system pretty much like today's (plus the unusual bonus that their home state wanted them to leave). https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007455 https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007455

jfoster 10y ago

That said, I think it's worth pointing out that in 1914, the means to travel didn't exist as it does today. We've given up some freedom but made gains on capability.

Houshalter 10y ago
But the artificial barriers we've put up are much more restrictive than the old barriers. Perhaps we should make an immigration tax, and anyone can enter if they are willing to pay $10,000. Or some arbitrarily high, but feasible, amount.
- rst 10y ago
  These are called investors' visas, and already exist, though the prices are much steeper: $1 million investment in a new business for an American EB-5; 2 million pounds for the British equivalent. Payment doesn't go directly to the government; instead, it's supposed to be invested in a new business that creates at least ten jobs. But there are middlemen who offer the service of actually setting up and managing the business: http://fortune.com/2014/07/24/immigration-eb-5-visa-for-sale/ http://fortune.com/2014/07/24/immigration-eb-5-visa-for-sale...

s_kilk 10y ago

> It's hard to believe how much we've given up. It's weird, for all our progress, our world is more locked down and restricted than ever before.

thisrod 10y ago

Let's not get too nostalgic. The operative words there are "English man": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Restriction_Act_1901 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Restriction_Act_... Or at least someone with a good enough accent to pass for one.