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But the EU charges are about Google's tactics within the Google run Android market. Google isn't leveraging it's monopoly outside of it's own brand either. Th

by Steltek 10y ago

But the EU charges are about Google's tactics within the Google run Android market. Google isn't leveraging it's monopoly outside of it's own brand either. The argument hinges on Google not owning or operating Android. AOSP has been a dead dream for a while now due to carriers locking down phones and Google needing to circle the wagons.

Esau 10y ago
Android is bigger than Google. Other companies make Android devices.
- danieldk 10y ago
  Google can exert a large amount of control over device makers --- Android without Google Play Services and the Google Play Store is pretty useless. (Unless you have Amazon's scale and can clone all that.)
  - totitipo 10y ago
    Android without Google Play Services/Store is not useless at all. Ask any Chinese Android user.
    - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
      In China, apps Chinese citizens want are available in app stores available there. Everywhere else, Android apps people want are solely available through Google's store. And the only reason China has a competitive Android market: Google doesn't operate there. In fact, China proves what's so bad about the Play Store: We can definitively see how much more freedom exists if Google is axed from the equation.
      - Fazzle 10y ago
        I don't think most of the Chinese app stores are good examples though. Too much piracy, too many repackaged apps and security nightmares.
      - hooluupog 10y ago
        On the contrary,China proves what's so bad without the Play Store and GCM.Android is a mess there.
danieldk 10y ago
iOS is a luxury brand (remember that carrier subsidies are smaller in the EU and are not allowed in some member states). So, realistically for a lot of people there is only one kind of affordable smartphone and that is an Android phone. As you mention, AOSP alone does not give you much Android and Google is likely to dictate all kinds of terms to use the Play services, Play Store, etc. So, the question is indeed does AOSP give enough to argue that Google does not fully control the Android market. Personally, I am not sure this is the most problematic aspect of Android though. If we assume for a moment that Android is a near-monopoly in the EU, the more troubling aspect is that people can only choose between having no smartphone (which is becoming harder) or letting Google suck all kinds of data out of them. In other words, only when you are rich enough, you can afford not to let a company suck up a lot of your private data.
- home_boi 10y ago
  the info to root your device is free on the internet
  - ethbro 10y ago
    *For certain devices
    - milankragujevic 10y ago
      Can't repeat this enough. My shitty Android tablet from Huawei that I got for free on contract cannot be rooted and is stuck on Android 4.1 forever, even though it has a modern ARM cpu and 1GB of RAM... :(
- on_and_off 10y ago
  not sure that the argument that iOS is a luxury brand holds up in most european countries where you can just as well get an iOS or Android device with the same subsidization from the carrier (especially since Apple does not only sell its last generation high end devices). There are still a couple of european countries where iOS devices sell extremely poorly. I am not sure if this is because of an absence of subsidies or another reason. Even if Android is the only option, you can always choose to refuse all data sharing from google, you are not forced to create a google account or to use google play. Admittedly, it makes things harder for a neophyte.
tarancato 10y ago
>AOSP has been a dead dream for a while now due to carriers locking down phones That's only in the US. Let's be honest here, AOSP is a dead dream because porting and maintaining AOSP for a device is kinda complicated. Many people do it for free, but you can't rely on that.
- IshKebab 10y ago
  No, AOSP is a dead dream because Google moved essential code into Google Play Services, which isn't open source.
  - tarancato 10y ago
    Essential code such as what? Can't you boot AOSP without installing the Google apps?
    - cwyers 10y ago
      Essential code for apps written against the platform's official APIs.
    - IshKebab 10y ago
      You can but a huge number of apps use Google Play Services and you can't use those. I suppose technically you couldn't get them anyway since you don't have Google Play, but anyway. GPS includes stuff like location services, Firebase, Chromecast, analytics, Google account authentication, Google Drive APIs, all the game stuff, Android Pay, etc.
  - rhodysurf 10y ago
    You can write plenty of good apps without google play services. Thats hyperbole.
    - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
      You can. But since almost nobody does, there's no viable use for a phone without it. Bear in mind, even Microsoft, who was part of starting this investigation against Google... Even Microsoft's apps like Outlook and Skype won't run without Play Services installed and enabled.

by Steltek 10y ago

Esau 10y ago

Android is bigger than Google. Other companies make Android devices.

danieldk 10y ago
Google can exert a large amount of control over device makers --- Android without Google Play Services and the Google Play Store is pretty useless. (Unless you have Amazon's scale and can clone all that.)
- totitipo 10y ago
  Android without Google Play Services/Store is not useless at all. Ask any Chinese Android user.
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    In China, apps Chinese citizens want are available in app stores available there. Everywhere else, Android apps people want are solely available through Google's store. And the only reason China has a competitive Android market: Google doesn't operate there. In fact, China proves what's so bad about the Play Store: We can definitively see how much more freedom exists if Google is axed from the equation.
    - Fazzle 10y ago
      I don't think most of the Chinese app stores are good examples though. Too much piracy, too many repackaged apps and security nightmares.
    - hooluupog 10y ago
      On the contrary,China proves what's so bad without the Play Store and GCM.Android is a mess there.

danieldk 10y ago

iOS is a luxury brand (remember that carrier subsidies are smaller in the EU and are not allowed in some member states). So, realistically for a lot of people there is only one kind of affordable smartphone and that is an Android phone. As you mention, AOSP alone does not give you much Android and Google is likely to dictate all kinds of terms to use the Play services, Play Store, etc. So, the question is indeed does AOSP give enough to argue that Google does not fully control the Android market. Personally, I am not sure this is the most problematic aspect of Android though. If we assume for a moment that Android is a near-monopoly in the EU, the more troubling aspect is that people can only choose between having no smartphone (which is becoming harder) or letting Google suck all kinds of data out of them. In other words, only when you are rich enough, you can afford not to let a company suck up a lot of your private data.

home_boi 10y ago
the info to root your device is free on the internet
- ethbro 10y ago
  *For certain devices
  - milankragujevic 10y ago
    Can't repeat this enough. My shitty Android tablet from Huawei that I got for free on contract cannot be rooted and is stuck on Android 4.1 forever, even though it has a modern ARM cpu and 1GB of RAM... :(
on_and_off 10y ago
not sure that the argument that iOS is a luxury brand holds up in most european countries where you can just as well get an iOS or Android device with the same subsidization from the carrier (especially since Apple does not only sell its last generation high end devices). There are still a couple of european countries where iOS devices sell extremely poorly. I am not sure if this is because of an absence of subsidies or another reason. Even if Android is the only option, you can always choose to refuse all data sharing from google, you are not forced to create a google account or to use google play. Admittedly, it makes things harder for a neophyte.

tarancato 10y ago

>AOSP has been a dead dream for a while now due to carriers locking down phones That's only in the US. Let's be honest here, AOSP is a dead dream because porting and maintaining AOSP for a device is kinda complicated. Many people do it for free, but you can't rely on that.

IshKebab 10y ago
No, AOSP is a dead dream because Google moved essential code into Google Play Services, which isn't open source.
- tarancato 10y ago
  Essential code such as what? Can't you boot AOSP without installing the Google apps?
  - cwyers 10y ago
    Essential code for apps written against the platform's official APIs.
  - IshKebab 10y ago
    You can but a huge number of apps use Google Play Services and you can't use those. I suppose technically you couldn't get them anyway since you don't have Google Play, but anyway. GPS includes stuff like location services, Firebase, Chromecast, analytics, Google account authentication, Google Drive APIs, all the game stuff, Android Pay, etc.
- rhodysurf 10y ago
  You can write plenty of good apps without google play services. Thats hyperbole.
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    You can. But since almost nobody does, there's no viable use for a phone without it. Bear in mind, even Microsoft, who was part of starting this investigation against Google... Even Microsoft's apps like Outlook and Skype won't run without Play Services installed and enabled.