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Ranking TV Shows That Got Canceled

272 points by RaSoJo 10y ago

Vanit 10y ago
I loved Firely, but the analysis is flawed because it didn't account for the older shows having more time to accumulate more ratings.
- modernerd 10y ago
  I thought the same at first, but it's still in second place if you account for that: http://d.pr/i/1119j http://d.pr/i/1119j
- usrusr 10y ago
  Meta-priceonomics: raving about long-tail successful shows is great for your blog's linkability.
pmiller2 10y ago
I'm a little surprised Dollhouse didn't rank higher. It's really a wonderful, extended meditation on the nature of identity, wrapped up in a sci-fi, transhumanist, pre-apocalyptic shell, with a liberal dash of feminism. Fran Kranz, Olivia Williams, and (last, but not least) Enver Gjokaj are standouts among the excellent cast. I do, however, recommend watching the first pilot from the DVD set rather than the actual pilot episode that aired. It takes a couple episodes to get going, but once it does, it's truly amazing.
- jhou2 10y ago
  iirc, the "Save Dollhouse from Cancellation" campaign started before the first episode even aired. It still got cancelled.
- SwellJoe 10y ago
  I hated Dollhouse, despite being a nearly obsessive Whedon fan. I loved Buffy, Angel, and Firefly, and also loved Dushku and Acker in their roles on earlier Whedon shows. I kinda forced myself to watch it based on my love of all of Whedon's other shows, and the hope that, like Buffy, it would find its stride in the 2nd season. But, no, it was just bad. I didn't make it through the second season.
  - morganvachon 10y ago
    I'm glad I'm not the only one. I obsessed over Buffy (which I consider a guilty pleasure as I wasn't the target demographic of teenage-at-the-time girls), and enjoyed Angel to a lesser degree. Firefly absolutely blew me away, and was a starting point for several of its actors who have become successful in the years since. I've followed those actors into the shows they went on to do, with the exception of Nathan Fillion in Castle, which I found too cheesy for my taste. But Dollhouse...the cast was great, the story was intriguing even if a little derivative, but somehow the show fell flat for me. I found myself struggling to watch it and gave up about 10 episodes in. I still have the first season DVD on my Amazon wish list but it's been on there since December 2010 and I still haven't brought myself to buy it, despite its price dropping below $10 several times in the past. Maybe one day I'll pick it up and try again, but there's so much good TV out today and so little spare time to watch, I may never get around to it.
    - eggy 10y ago
      My ex-wife and I watched Buffy when it premiered in 1997, and she was pregnant with our first child. We loved it! Time flies: My daughter got into it and did several weeks of marathon watching with her friend when she was 17 in 2014. It didn't hold up for me when I watched a bit of one episode again, and I was definitely not in the demographic for the show by a stretch at that point ;)
      - ghaff 10y ago
        At least for me, there's a certain "you can't go home again" element to TV series--especially ones running over a number of seasons. You typically watch and enjoy them at the pace that they aired and in the context of the culture at the time and where you are at the time. This is changing with the splintering of mainstream culture, on-demand binge-watching etc. But it certainly applies to originally broadcast series. There's also just so much new content these days. It's really hard for me to imagine devoting 100 hours or whatever to either rewatching or watching for the first time some 1990s vintage TV show.
- thom 10y ago
  Dollhouse was premised on the idea that Eliza Dushku could convincingly play a different character every week. I do not think it worked very well.
  - morganvachon 10y ago
    I can imagine if they rebooted the show, Tatiana Maslany could pull it off without a hitch. It's basically what she's doing in Orphan Black, but she's playing those multiple characters two or three at a time in one episode.
  - pmiller2 10y ago
    I'd say that's more of a feature than a bug. I was far more interested in Echo than any of the implanted personalities.
- krylon 10y ago
  A fair amount of the time, Dollhouse seemed to me like it had been rushed into production without the time to think of better per-episode plots (as opposed to the longer story-arc). Which always made me a little sad, because the underlying theme is awesome. On the other hand, I agree that the cast was incredible. Even when some of the "little" plots were weak, they made the show very much worth watching to me.
  - pmiller2 10y ago
    Definitely. Season 1 was mostly "let's see whose ass Echo is going to kick this week." Unfortunately, I'd say about half of the first season was basically wasted on throwaway episodes. Season 2 felt rushed in general, because it was rushed. Had the show gotten the 5 or 6 years it actually needed to develop itself, it would have been far better.
- Animats 10y ago
  Dollhouse was a good idea, worth one season. Another season would have struggled with variations on the theme. This is a problem with high-concept drama; don't wear out the concept. That's also true of Firefly, although it might have gone two or three seasons before being brought to some kind of conclusion.
lutusp 10y ago
Who knows? Maybe if Firefly hadn't been cancelled, its audience might have evaporated, or Joss Whedon might have run out of ideas for new episodes (as unlikely as that sounds). We just can't know. I think Firefly was absolutely terrific and the people at Fox were perfect morons not to see what they were destroying, but none of this is science and we can't possibly know what might have happened in an alternate future. For contrast, there's the "Matrix" sequels to show what can happen when projects aren't terminated when their sell-by date arrives.
- masklinn 10y ago
  > Joss Whedon might have run out of ideas for new episodes Joss Whedon had planned 7 seasons.
pervycreeper 10y ago
How does the number of ratings on IMDB relate to profitability exactly?
minimaxir 10y ago
You can't use future events (# ratings on IMDb 10 years later) to determine what someone "should" have done. IMDb ratings in general follow a four point scale (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FourPointScale http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FourPointScale) and are also skewed toward the internet-savvy demographic. It's a good example of a homogeneous population and the problems that can cause for data analysis.
- valleyer 10y ago
  Do you mean "homogeneous"? If not, can you explain why a heterogeneous population is problematic?
  - minimaxir 10y ago
    Yes, fixed. (that's the problem with commenting on HN at 1 AM)
    - nilstycho 10y ago
      Nitpick: homogeneous, not homogenous. This error is so common that some dictionaries have deemed it acceptable, but homogeneous is preferred. I still fight the good fight.
      - minimaxir 10y ago
        ...this is clearly the last time I will comment on HN at 1 AM.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        pbhjpbhj 10y ago
        Said like a true addict!
        mlvljr 10y ago
petra 10y ago
The logic behind the rise of niche programs is simple : they didn't fit the advertising based model , which seeks mass appeal, but they are the thing that makes a loyal fan stay subscribed to netflix(or Amazon) even if the rest of netflix isn't great for him - but still nice to watch. As for the economics - let's say each niche grabs 5% of viewers - you need just 20 shows, which is reasonable.
- nardi 10y ago
  Only if each show's viewership is completely disjoint from all of the other shows'.
- grenoire 10y ago
  20, of course, is the best case scenario where each and every one of them capture 5% exactly and capture that 5% in such a manner that it is mutually exclusive from all other 19 shows.
  - caf 10y ago
    Alternately, if the probability of liking the shows are completely uncorrelated, then with 20 shows you'll have 64% of the market watching at least one of your shows. (and of course there's the worst-case scenario where all 20 shows appeal to the same 5%!)
- lucozade 10y ago
  This is related to an opportunity cost problem that Netflix doesn't have (so much). The networks have a limited set of time slots so if one show is deemed relatively better than another for a particular slot then it makes sense to consider a swap. Netflix only really needs the show to make money to keep it going. If a competing show makes more money then that's great. Show both.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Netflix to some extent actually prefers "niche programming". Their mass appeal library and show would sell subscriptions but they'll peak rather quickly as a replacement for cable. Their niche programming is very good at attracting new customers since these customers tend to be more hardcore and they don't have (m)any alternatives. How much of this will remain as Netflix moves towards original programming I don't know, I think that they are likely to move most of their mass appeal programming to originals and just pick up the odd cult classics/fanclub shows and movies and maybe revive a franchise once in awhile.
spike021 10y ago
I think a similar situation happened with 'Chuck'. The last couple seasons of it were produced in such a way that the finales could have worked as series finales since they were never sure it would be extended further. As a result, it had weird sponsorships like from Subway, which meant scenes of the show were pretty much Subway ads. But anyway, my point is that nowadays on Netflix and IMDB the show has lots of ratings and they're generally positive. IMDB has Chuck as 8.2/10 based on 109,543 ratings, which I would think is decent. I think the last time I noticed it, Netflix had it at 4.5 or so out of 5 stars (not sure on overall numbers, however). That show had a great blend of a bunch of genres: cheesy/action/suspense/romance/sci-fi to name just a few. But I think in general this kind of situation is mostly a result of our times. 5+ years ago shows were just really beginning to be widely available (at least to people who didn't torrent online and things like that). Back then you really had to intentionally be around when something aired on TV or you needed to care enough to set it to record to DVR (or heck, even VHS further back). Nowadays it's easy enough to just open up Netflix and continue watching a show sequentially on demand.
- jimminy 10y ago
  The Chuck writers were brilliant in their fan service in that regard. And it's not only the season finales, they were always on the bubble and never sure if they'd get the back-6 or back-9 of a season. Because of the uncertainty, there are generally 2-3 episodes per season, around either episode 9 or 13, and then including the finales, they would work as series enders.
- JshWright 10y ago
  We've rewatched Chuck a couple times, but always end on the episode where Ellie has her baby and Chuck proposes to Sarah. After that, it's just too much of a roller coaster (for all the reasons you mentioned).
  - spike021 10y ago
    The last couple seasons are still decent, but because of the on again, off again nature of the series that rollercoaster is quite uncomfortable to ride.
okket 10y ago
Amazing how popular this "Western meets Zombies in Space" trope still is.
- qznc 10y ago
  Zombies?
  - kabdib 10y ago
    Reavers, I think he means. [I'm tired of the trope. Probably my least favorite thing about Firefly]
    - 7952 10y ago
      Seems to me that the natural audience for a show like Firefly is actually children, in the same vein as star trek. It will also appeal to adults, but the basic premise is just going to be more appealing to children. The more adult/scary bits of the show felt bolted on and added little. Ironically a "kids" show like buffy morphed into something far more grown up than Firefly ever was.
    - usrusr 10y ago
      Oh, Reavers... the best (only?) way to enjoy Firefly is to pretend that this part of the universe simply does not exist. I guess every show has its low points. The main quality of Firefly was just plain old, maybe somewhat simplistic, character likability. Just like in SG-1. In my case, as I only discovered much later, that was also assisted by the heavy Traveller influence in Firefly. Never played it much, but Traveller (in some of it's incarnations) had always been my personal favorite amongst pen&paper RPGs.
      - ghaff 10y ago
        >The main quality of Firefly was just plain old, maybe somewhat simplistic, character likability. Agreed. In fact, I'd argue that if you take away the appealing and interesting cast and characters from Firefly, you're not left with an awful lot. Of course, characters form the backbone of a lot of shows but science fiction can also be driven by plot, the setting, ideas, etc. in a way that can make the characters less central. But in Firefly if you take away the characters you're mostly stuck with an overdone Western in space motif and generally unmemorable plots.
kchoudhu 10y ago
The list all of the high points for me: Veronica Mars, Jericho and Freaks and Geeks. I also appreciate the presence of Stargate: Universe on the list. Everyone hated it, but I really, really, really enjoyed the different take on the Stargate, er, universe.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  I liked it too. It was a very different Stargate. More dark, more psychological. Some camera takes stolen from BattleStar: Galactica. But it was interesting, and it get much more interesting (the whole cosmic microwave background thing) just before they cut it down :/.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    I loved it too. And it was just hilarious how much it looked like the "younger, edgier" version from SG1 "200". One of the best parts of the entire Stargate franchise is the amount of self-referential and self-deprecating humour in it.
- RileyKyeden 10y ago
  One of the writers warned before the SG:U finale that it would be really bad and disappointing. In reality, it was one of the best episodes with one of the best endings of any SG series.
  - kchoudhu 10y ago
    The ending with Eli standing, looking into infinity was simultaneously terrifying and uplifting. SciFi at its very best.
lolive 10y ago
Wow. "Pushing daisies" is listed too:) Really fun WTF show.
Jabbles 10y ago
Surely you would have to compare these with shows that were not cancelled? Firefly received a lot, but was it enough/more than others? Presumably something else should have been cancelled in its place?
grawlinson 10y ago
One season was enough. I don't know about the rest of you, but I quite like small one-off or short-lived TV runs because they often set out to tell a story and once their story is told, that is it. No tacked on extra seasons.
- ht_th 10y ago
  Agreed. Just tell a good story, take the time it needs, and be done. In my opinion, long-lived series tend to become repetitive and formulaic, escalate beyond measure because somehow there always has to be a new bigger bad (I am looking at you Stargate SG1) or more trumped up storyline. I understand the appeal to keep on going as long as it makes (a lot of) money. But as an appreciator of a good story I just move on to a fresh idea.
  - spoiler 10y ago
    I am a really huge fan of Supernatural, but lately it feels like it's kinda getting out of control. On the other hand, I also don't want it cancelled!
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      I was a huge fan too. I loved it till Season 7, gave up on it after Season 9. What bugs me the most is that the things that happen don't make any remote kind of sense anymore. It had some sort of consistent plot for a while, but it started breaking apart since somewhere around S5 / S6.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    I disagree with you on SG-1, though I'd like to bring up Supernatural 'spoiler mentioned as a perfect example of what you're talking about. SG-1, compared to many other overdone shows, had one redeeming quality - the protagonists (in this case, all humans) actually progressed through the course of the show. In SG-1 humans went from 1980s level of technology in Season 1 to spaceships, teleporters and off-world colonies in Season 10. So new 'bigger bad' always made some kind of sense, and I feel there was a space for a few seasons worth of additional interesting ideas. That, or they could have simply continued Stargate: Universe. There is one series I'm really up in arms about it being recently cancelled - Person of Interest. That one was nowhere close to repetitive, it had tons and tons of space for good, intelligent story developments, and it got cancelled behind the crew's back anyway, because whatever. Fuck you, CBS, for cutting out what was probably the only thing in history of television that approached the topic of AI in a smart, realistic way (and also basically broke Snowden's revelations a year before Snowden).
heisenbit 10y ago
There is a lot value and money to be made in the long tail. Simply taking a black box approach and measuring what is easy to measure in the short run is not really useful to predict how many people and how deeply people will engage. Distribution channels for narrow audiences (amazon for books/dvds, netflix/torrents for video) combined with social network dynamics have changed the game. Of course there is also the case that a world event changes the game. One of the most famous failed shows - not in the list - is Startrek. Moonlanding ignited that boom.
jfoutz 10y ago
Fox tried so many crazy things. Brisco County Jr., Dark Angel, Alien Nation. They'd stand by shows that did ok, like x files or fringe, and constantly try random new stuff. Yeah, i'm bummed with the rest of the internet that Firefly got canceled. Some browncoats still have some hate for Fox. But really without fox churning through random ideas, it never would have been made.
- masklinn 10y ago
  > Some browncoats still have some hate for Fox. But really without fox churning through random ideas, it never would have been made. Much of the hate for fox is not about trying new things or cancelling a failing show, it's that the way they aired the show gave it no chance: Fox changed the episode sequence (airing it in essentially random order destroying any chance of following the underlying plot), promoted it as an action-comedy series, and often interrupting or dropping it in favour of sports. There's a reason the show's "cult status" started mere months after it was cancelled.
- cgriswald 10y ago
  The browncoat hate for Fox isn't just that the show was cancelled but that it was aired somewhat out of order in inconsistent timeslots and then cancelled it. Fox has set up numerous shows for failure, including Arrested Development, which was aired against Monday Night Football and wasn't aired during sweeps week. How does a show succeed, no matter how good, when it's never given a chance to develop an audience? You're being overly generous to Fox. It's not enough to "try" crazy shows. They're dead in the water if they're set up for failure this way by extremely short term thinking.
  - sho_hn 10y ago
    > Fox has set up numerous shows for failure Seems like a dubious claim to me, since it's not in their interest. My guess is that since the most coveted timeslots are a finite resource, they need to make hard calls about placing stable earners in them vs. new shows, for example, or bank on audiences finding those new shows anyway, via directed marketing effots. "Giving a show a chance to develop an audience" is technically achieved by airing it at all, and it's not the only thing they need to get done in a day. You can criticize individual decisions they make, but only if you take that full picture of everything they need to accomodate into account. There can be good reasons why a network doesn't place your favorite show in your preferred timeslot.
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modernerd 10y ago
They used total ratings as a proxy for fan popularity. I sorted by average rating count per day to give a different outlook, as some shows have been available to rate for longer. Firefly (37 ratings a day) is still up there in second place below Terra Nova (38 a day): http://d.pr/i/1119j http://d.pr/i/1119j That doesn't take into consideration the rating values, though; just their quantity. It would be interesting to see ratings per day weighted by user rating, but I couldn't find a way to retrieve that raw data.
douche 10y ago
One of my favorite bits on Family Guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMTmtN7lHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMTmtN7lHI edit TLDW: Rapid-fire listing of 29 shows started and cancelled by Fox in the two years between Family Guy's initial cancellation and revival.
mSparks 10y ago
I really wish they'd finished V and Flashforward too. Both could have been signed off in a few episodes and would of added tons of value to the franchises.
lolive 10y ago
The performance of christina hendricks in Firefly is jaw-dropping !!!
forgettableuser 10y ago
Trivia: Bryan Fuller made the list 3 times with Pushing Daisies, Wonderfalls, and Dead Like Me.
- stevekemp 10y ago
  Dead Like Me was a great show, which was really getting into its stride (plot-wise) when it was cancelled. Thus far I've resisted the temptation to view the movie they made - largely due to Mandy Patinkin's absence.
Kiro 10y ago
Should I watch the pilot or not before watching the official episodes?
- throwanem 10y ago
  Watch the series in the order it's presented in the DVD set. The episodes were aired out of order in a way that makes the plot arcs incomprehensible; the DVD set has them in the intended order.
dogma1138 10y ago
Internet ranking for cult shows/movies is problematic, these shows have an extremely loyal fan base which ties the origins of the word fan to it's root fanatic quite often. While these are great shows, the ranking don't necessarily mean much, it just means that there were more fans willing to give the show a good rating, and more likely than not on probably more than a few accounts. It's hard to compare IMDB ratings properly when shows like America's Got Talent or the Voice only have 5000-7000 votes with a pretty shitty score while clearly being considerably more popular with the mass audience. Shows like GoT are an outlier with over 1M votes cast, while even highly acclaimed TV sci fi shows like Star Trek TNG have only about 60K votes. Firefly is the "best tv show that got canceled ever" just like Kim Jong Un is Time's internet person of the year, mostly anonymous internet voting and highly loyal and fanatic fan base can easily skew statistics. I love Firefly I would loved to have seen it live to be 5-6 seasons old, but every time I see people talk about it like it was the "greatest mistake" in modern television programming I can't really take them seriously.
- kijin 10y ago
  It might not have been the greatest mistake in modern television programming, but the size and enthusiasm of the fan base at least says something about how profitable it might be (or not) if it returned on, say, Netflix. Potential producers might also want to consider factors such as the average age and income of a Firefly fan (since it was aired 13 years ago and remain popular among Silicon Valley geeks) and whether it would be feasible to bring some of the original cast back together and still have an interesting story (Star Wars VII did).
  - gravypod 10y ago
    This idea almost makes me want to cancel my Netflix subscription and tell them "I won't buy Netflix unless you do this" Then again I already love what Netflix provides.
  - fsloth 10y ago
    " it might be if it returned on, say, Netflix." My Netflix has Firefly. In Finland. Our selection in Netflix in generally very limited, though. Or do you mean Netflix would make new seasons?
mioelnir 10y ago
Wasn't the reason that Rome was canceled after two seasons the fact that their entire wood-built set burnt down? How many more are on this list where it is not differentiated between canceled for ratings vs canceled due to an external event?
- fsloth 10y ago
  I don't know what actually happened but the public reason stated in the wikipedia page cites budget and the termination of the collaboration contract with BBC as the main reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_(TV_series)
gradstudent 10y ago
I was sad Firefly was cancelled back in the day. Now though? I'd rather Adam Baldwin not receive any support.
- fnj 10y ago
  Sniff, sniff ... in the absence of specification of any cause, I smell political axe-grinding. I am always perplexed by conflation of political views with professional proficiency.
- fsloth 10y ago
  If you censor your entertainment based on the perceived morals of the performers you are going to miss on lots of good stuff. For instance I have no problem enjoying the performance Tom Cruise in Mission Impossibles despite his bat-shit crazy position on Scientology. Roman Polanski is a convicted child rapist and that does not stop me from enjoying his films. Etc etc.
- deleted 10y ago
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LulzSect 10y ago
Here's an unpopular opinion. Firefly was a terrible show and was rightfully cancelled. Not sure why it is so revered amongst neckbeards. It's a poor rip off of Cowboy Bebop.
- fnj 10y ago
  Popular or unpopular, you know why you've taken a hit? Because you offer no rationale whatsoever for your opinion.
  - LulzSect 10y ago
    Bad acting Over used tropes Unimaginative plots The entire show was a poorly executed "train job".
- throwanem 10y ago
  You're claiming that the show is a ripoff of an anime, and you don't understand why it has nerdy fans? I don't accept your prior, but it does provide a clear answer to the question with which you have trouble.
  - LulzSect 10y ago
    The show is a poorly executed weeaboo fanficton gone wrong. Sorry you're all mad.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      I'm not mad, I'm confused. Even by your own lights you don't seem to be making much sense. Are you sure you've thought your opinion on this all the way through?
      - LulzSect 10y ago
        the show sucks period
- 10y ago
derekp7 10y ago
Looking over this list (at least for the ones I'm familiar with), most of these shows really require that you see the premier episode (or first several episodes) in order to "get into" it. It is hard for viewers that come in the middle of the season, or the following season. So unless it was really popular from the beginning, they stand a good chance of not picking up ratings later on. Which also explains why they do so good in streaming format -- you can binge watch them from the very beginning.
- sotojuan 10y ago
  Arrested Development especially rewarded loyal, in-order viewing and hurt "random" (seeing any episode out of order while switching channels) because the show focused a lot on jokes or plot devices made episodes before.
  - deleted 10y ago
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- Silhouette 10y ago
  I think there's a kind of reverse effect to the one you described as well: several of the shows on that list had a weak performance during the early part of the season when they were cancelled but then picked up later, presumably after the decision had already been made and it was too late to renew for another season. Watching right through on a streaming service or box set, you remember the strong final episodes, but those probably weren't even considered yet by the time the show was canned.
stevesun21 10y ago
Can I vote just cancel Fox keep cancel tv shows?
fauria 10y ago
It surprises me that there are no mentions to Carnivàle...
- Lio 10y ago
  Totally agree, it was a great show. You can really see in the second season how the they dithered over killing it. I believe it was originally set to be only 2 seasons, which is fine. Then they decided to extended it, so they added the Sophie plot. Then the execs changed their minds and cancelled it anyway without wrapping up the new plot. Doh! Whilst I was sad Rome only had 2 seasons at least it's fairly self contained and ends well. Deadwood though has to be my top pick for a bad incomplete ending.
  - sizzzzlerz 10y ago
    The first two seasons of Deadwood were exceptional with Ian McShane being the primary reason. Season 3 started to lose something by dwelling too long on the evil George Hearst character. I'm not sure the show could have stood up a compelling complete fourth season but I really would have liked some closure instead of yanking the cord like HBO did.
- tmnvix 10y ago
  It's in there, sixth equal just after Deadwood on the list of "highest average IMDB rating among canceled shows". Damn good show it was too. Of all of the great series' that have been cut short, Carnivale was the one that I most wish hadn't been.
- internaut 10y ago
  If you liked Carnival there is another canceled show called Utopia. It is the most incredible 2 season conspiracy thriller you shall ever see. I mention it because it has the same Lovecraftian feel that Carnival managed to obtain. It also has a score like no other. Listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2f6MfEzhvo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2f6MfEzhvo
dghughes 10y ago
I really liked Firefly too but it's sad to see Adam Baldwin (Jayne) is so vicious and crazy in real life. Too bad Wash died instead of Jayne.
- vanattab 10y ago
  How is Adam Baldwin vicious in real life?
  - rhapsodic 10y ago
    Probably confusing with Alec Baldwin.
    - deleted 10y ago
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    - zodiakzz 10y ago
      Can't find anything nefarious on Alec's Wiki page but found this on Adam's[1]: Baldwin is credited with having originated the GamerGate hashtag. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Baldwin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Baldwin
      - dghughes 10y ago
        I wasn't even aware of that I'm only referring to his Twitter feed. But anyway life is too short to worry about such things.
  - dghughes 10y ago
    Follow him on twitter for 10 seconds and you'll know why. I won't repeat what he says here.
- sctb 10y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12617298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12617298 and marked it off-topic.
IgorPartola 10y ago
If you don't mind getting attached to a brilliant story and characters for a single season, I can't recommend Battleground from Hulu enough. Do yourself a favor and watch it.
sovande 10y ago
The closest successor to Firefly, Dark Matter (minus the cowboy thing) only just made it to season 2 but is now renewed for season 3 by reducing production costs and selling older seasons to Netflix. The new way people are watching TV is on-demand rather than on-air which is dramatically cutting ad-based income for traditional networks. If networks can partner or sell to streaming companies like Netflix it might help long tail shows like Firefly to survive in the future. Another great Syfy show, The Expanse, will hopefully survive that way whereas back in 2003 it would have been axed by now.
mverwijs 10y ago
I am reminded of an interview with Joe Satriani. The interviewer asked if he was worried about recording contracts given that he is not hugely popular. His answer was something along the lines of: I may not be as popular as some, but studios also do not have to spend buckets of money on advertising and marketing when I release an album. My smallish fanbase will buy my albums when they come out regardless. I suspect Netflix is in a better position (now) to cater to those type of fans than Fox was then. Too late for firefly, unfortunately.
dieg0 10y ago
Don't care what the stats say, Brickleberry should be first on that ranking.
ravenstine 10y ago
Oh wow, I can't believe that Rome is #2! That's one of my all-time favorite shows and I've only ever known 1 other person who has even heard of it. I really do recommend it to anyone who likes historical drama with spare-no-expense sets, costumes and visual effects.
mandelbulb 10y ago
Well, Lie to Me had unfortunately been deteriorating so unless they would've employed new writers it isn't that bad it got cancelled. Now we hold only good memories of it.
- scrollaway 10y ago
  I agree. I was glad Lie to Me got cancelled.
spydum 10y ago
I think it will be very interesting how the major broadcasters/content producers do with Nielsen Total Audience Measurement going live. Remember all these media execs make the live or die calls off those media ratings and ad sales. For over a decade Nielsen has been discounting online viewership. Yes they were covering DVR, but it felt half assed. A lot of people blamed Jericho getting cut because they questioned nielsens numbers.
transfire 10y ago
The worst cancellation I have ever seen was of Caprica. The last show aired made a veiled criticism of Israel policies toward Palestine. It was pulled the next day! The rest of the season be damned. They stuck reruns of ST:NG into the slot. A year later they allowed the final few episodes to be shown and that was the end of that. Since then I am reluctant to watch anything on SyFy.
Razengan 10y ago
I just want this page to have a mention of The Pirates of Dark Water on it somewhere, so here it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pirates_of_Dark_Water https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pirates_of_Dark_Water
- forgettableuser 10y ago
  You reminded me of Gargoyles which is worth mentioning. Creator Greg Weisman quit over Disney planning to ruin it in Season 3. It was probably a good call because they did ruin Season 3. Weisman had created a detailed story arc that had a couple more centuries to go. He has continued to answer never ending fan questions and reveal details of the story arc for the following 20 years at "Ask Greg" at Station 8 Gargoyles http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/ http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/
brightball 10y ago
Any list that doesn't include Airwolf, tragically cancelled after 3 seasons (the 4th with a totally different cast doesn't count), is missing the mark.
- Noos 10y ago
  The list doesn't include The Adventures of Brisco County Jr either, which is far more of a true cult series than most of what is listed there.
- dottrap 10y ago
  Sledge Hammer! 2 seasons. Ran against Cosby as the sacrificial lamb.
solidr53 10y ago
John Doe :(
projektir 10y ago
I wonder how much Firefly has benefited from being cancelled so early. I imagine if Heroes got cancelled after about 10-13 episodes, it'd be very well perceived right now. The subsequent writers' strike mess and not being able to handle an evolving story messed that show up quite a bit. So many shows, even really well done ones, taper off at a point due to various production issues (Babylon 5 comes to mind).
wozniacki 10y ago
Luck is another HBO show that started to show great promise but was cancelled due to the death of some horses, at least according to the show's producers. [1] How to make it in America too was bright but was cancelled due to more conventional reasons. [2] [1] HBO Luck http://www.hbo.com/luck http://www.hbo.com/luck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luck_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luck_(TV_series) [2] HBO How to Make It in America http://www.hbo.com/how-to-make-it-in-america http://www.hbo.com/how-to-make-it-in-america https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Make_It_in_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Make_It_in_America
jccalhoun 10y ago
I thought Firefly was incredibly average. If I were to list the best SciFi shows of all time I don't think it would even occur to me to put it on the list. I honestly can't even think of the plots of any of the episodes. There was one with a guy in a spacesuit, I think it was red? and there was one with cattle or sheep? I don't have anything against it. I just don't really find it remarkable at all. Fans of Firefly, on the other hand, are the absolute worst. I used to have a game and see how many days I could go without reading someone online randomly bringing up how terrible it was that Firefly was cancelled. I rarely made it past Tuesdays.
waldrews 10y ago
Anybody remember what happened to Lone Star? 3 episodes, not 3 seasons, for a critical and cult favorite.
CurtMonash 10y ago
The Buffy vs. Angel vs. Firefly discussion is a good one. Babylon 5, Veronica Mars, and the recent Battlestar Galactica also fit in. Ditto Dollhouse, Heroes, Alias and Lost. I'd say: -- It's just a detail, but recall that the first season of Buffy was actually just a half-season in length. -- The first three seasons of Buffy had a very clear meta-metaphor. :) It posited monsters as being a good representation for what happens in actual high school life. -- That aspect of the show hit its stride in the Buffy/Angel romance: Girl sleeps with guy and he turns into a monster. -- Firefly was good, but nothing in it was as brilliant as, say, the best of Buffy. -- A lot of shows started with a lot of monster-of-the-week/crisis-of-the-week and emphasized the ongoing story more later into the run. But most of the shows cited did at least some standalone stories all the way to the end. (Babylon 5 is one exception). -- Firefly never got past that part of the show's evolution. This may be one reason it never matched Buffy's brilliance. -- Not knowing whether or not a show will be renewed is a huge problem. If you're a fan of Buffy or Angel or Babylon 5, you're familiar with the consequences. -- The writers' strike messed up multiple shows, or at least their audiences. I never went back to watching Battlestar Galactica post-strike. -- Joss Whedon tried to oversee three shows at once. That didn't go well. Each of Buffy, Angel and Firefly deserved more of his attention. -- Dollhouse didn't have real characters, the people running the place excepted. It was never going to work. -- Some shows have a brilliant idea for an overarching story, in which the big story and the individual characters' experiences and arcs mesh beautifully. Then that story comes to a natural end, and the show is never quite as good again. Veronica Mars Season 1 is a great example. Ditto the first 1 1/2 or 2 seasons of Alias. Ditto Babylon 5 after things were wrapped up in Season 4. -- I'd put Battlestar Galactica into the same group. The best part was the first season, as everybody builds a society on the fly )as it were) that can survive against terrible odds. The plots with the election and the defeat and the aftermath weren't as good. And the pseudo-mystical stuff toward the end was just weird.
- ghaff 10y ago
  I agree with a lot of what you wrote. Babylon 5 was a pretty unfortunate case. There was a lot to love about it but also so much that you have to overlook that it's really hard to recommend, especially a couple decades later (ack! seriously). The effects were pretty low budget at the time--even if somewhat revolutionary for low budget graphics (Amiga). The acting was very uneven. And, generally, as you suggest the uncertainties around renewals through the series run drove too many decisions with respect to the story arc and made the whole ending arc somewhat anticlimactic. I'm also not sure that shows driven so heavily by central mysteries--as B5 was--work very well outside of their original context. (And perhaps in today's on-demand viewing environment more broadly.) I think I liked Battlestar Galactica more than you did overall but agree that the final somewhat mystical arc wasn't a strong finish. Lost didn't close well either after a strong start.

272 points by RaSoJo 10y ago

Vanit 10y ago

I loved Firely, but the analysis is flawed because it didn't account for the older shows having more time to accumulate more ratings.

modernerd 10y ago
I thought the same at first, but it's still in second place if you account for that: http://d.pr/i/1119j http://d.pr/i/1119j
usrusr 10y ago
Meta-priceonomics: raving about long-tail successful shows is great for your blog's linkability.

pmiller2 10y ago

I'm a little surprised Dollhouse didn't rank higher. It's really a wonderful, extended meditation on the nature of identity, wrapped up in a sci-fi, transhumanist, pre-apocalyptic shell, with a liberal dash of feminism. Fran Kranz, Olivia Williams, and (last, but not least) Enver Gjokaj are standouts among the excellent cast. I do, however, recommend watching the first pilot from the DVD set rather than the actual pilot episode that aired. It takes a couple episodes to get going, but once it does, it's truly amazing.

jhou2 10y ago
iirc, the "Save Dollhouse from Cancellation" campaign started before the first episode even aired. It still got cancelled.
SwellJoe 10y ago
I hated Dollhouse, despite being a nearly obsessive Whedon fan. I loved Buffy, Angel, and Firefly, and also loved Dushku and Acker in their roles on earlier Whedon shows. I kinda forced myself to watch it based on my love of all of Whedon's other shows, and the hope that, like Buffy, it would find its stride in the 2nd season. But, no, it was just bad. I didn't make it through the second season.
- morganvachon 10y ago
  I'm glad I'm not the only one. I obsessed over Buffy (which I consider a guilty pleasure as I wasn't the target demographic of teenage-at-the-time girls), and enjoyed Angel to a lesser degree. Firefly absolutely blew me away, and was a starting point for several of its actors who have become successful in the years since. I've followed those actors into the shows they went on to do, with the exception of Nathan Fillion in Castle, which I found too cheesy for my taste. But Dollhouse...the cast was great, the story was intriguing even if a little derivative, but somehow the show fell flat for me. I found myself struggling to watch it and gave up about 10 episodes in. I still have the first season DVD on my Amazon wish list but it's been on there since December 2010 and I still haven't brought myself to buy it, despite its price dropping below $10 several times in the past. Maybe one day I'll pick it up and try again, but there's so much good TV out today and so little spare time to watch, I may never get around to it.
  - eggy 10y ago
    My ex-wife and I watched Buffy when it premiered in 1997, and she was pregnant with our first child. We loved it! Time flies: My daughter got into it and did several weeks of marathon watching with her friend when she was 17 in 2014. It didn't hold up for me when I watched a bit of one episode again, and I was definitely not in the demographic for the show by a stretch at that point ;)
    - ghaff 10y ago
      At least for me, there's a certain "you can't go home again" element to TV series--especially ones running over a number of seasons. You typically watch and enjoy them at the pace that they aired and in the context of the culture at the time and where you are at the time. This is changing with the splintering of mainstream culture, on-demand binge-watching etc. But it certainly applies to originally broadcast series. There's also just so much new content these days. It's really hard for me to imagine devoting 100 hours or whatever to either rewatching or watching for the first time some 1990s vintage TV show.
thom 10y ago
Dollhouse was premised on the idea that Eliza Dushku could convincingly play a different character every week. I do not think it worked very well.
- morganvachon 10y ago
  I can imagine if they rebooted the show, Tatiana Maslany could pull it off without a hitch. It's basically what she's doing in Orphan Black, but she's playing those multiple characters two or three at a time in one episode.
- pmiller2 10y ago
  I'd say that's more of a feature than a bug. I was far more interested in Echo than any of the implanted personalities.
krylon 10y ago
A fair amount of the time, Dollhouse seemed to me like it had been rushed into production without the time to think of better per-episode plots (as opposed to the longer story-arc). Which always made me a little sad, because the underlying theme is awesome. On the other hand, I agree that the cast was incredible. Even when some of the "little" plots were weak, they made the show very much worth watching to me.
- pmiller2 10y ago
  Definitely. Season 1 was mostly "let's see whose ass Echo is going to kick this week." Unfortunately, I'd say about half of the first season was basically wasted on throwaway episodes. Season 2 felt rushed in general, because it was rushed. Had the show gotten the 5 or 6 years it actually needed to develop itself, it would have been far better.
Animats 10y ago
Dollhouse was a good idea, worth one season. Another season would have struggled with variations on the theme. This is a problem with high-concept drama; don't wear out the concept. That's also true of Firefly, although it might have gone two or three seasons before being brought to some kind of conclusion.

lutusp 10y ago

Who knows? Maybe if Firefly hadn't been cancelled, its audience might have evaporated, or Joss Whedon might have run out of ideas for new episodes (as unlikely as that sounds). We just can't know. I think Firefly was absolutely terrific and the people at Fox were perfect morons not to see what they were destroying, but none of this is science and we can't possibly know what might have happened in an alternate future. For contrast, there's the "Matrix" sequels to show what can happen when projects aren't terminated when their sell-by date arrives.

masklinn 10y ago
> Joss Whedon might have run out of ideas for new episodes Joss Whedon had planned 7 seasons.

pervycreeper 10y ago

How does the number of ratings on IMDB relate to profitability exactly?

minimaxir 10y ago

You can't use future events (# ratings on IMDb 10 years later) to determine what someone "should" have done. IMDb ratings in general follow a four point scale (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FourPointScale http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FourPointScale) and are also skewed toward the internet-savvy demographic. It's a good example of a homogeneous population and the problems that can cause for data analysis.

valleyer 10y ago
Do you mean "homogeneous"? If not, can you explain why a heterogeneous population is problematic?
- minimaxir 10y ago
  Yes, fixed. (that's the problem with commenting on HN at 1 AM)
  - nilstycho 10y ago
    Nitpick: homogeneous, not homogenous. This error is so common that some dictionaries have deemed it acceptable, but homogeneous is preferred. I still fight the good fight.
    - minimaxir 10y ago
      ...this is clearly the last time I will comment on HN at 1 AM.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
        Said like a true addict!
      - mlvljr 10y ago

petra 10y ago

The logic behind the rise of niche programs is simple : they didn't fit the advertising based model , which seeks mass appeal, but they are the thing that makes a loyal fan stay subscribed to netflix(or Amazon) even if the rest of netflix isn't great for him - but still nice to watch. As for the economics - let's say each niche grabs 5% of viewers - you need just 20 shows, which is reasonable.

nardi 10y ago
Only if each show's viewership is completely disjoint from all of the other shows'.
grenoire 10y ago
20, of course, is the best case scenario where each and every one of them capture 5% exactly and capture that 5% in such a manner that it is mutually exclusive from all other 19 shows.
- caf 10y ago
  Alternately, if the probability of liking the shows are completely uncorrelated, then with 20 shows you'll have 64% of the market watching at least one of your shows. (and of course there's the worst-case scenario where all 20 shows appeal to the same 5%!)
lucozade 10y ago
This is related to an opportunity cost problem that Netflix doesn't have (so much). The networks have a limited set of time slots so if one show is deemed relatively better than another for a particular slot then it makes sense to consider a swap. Netflix only really needs the show to make money to keep it going. If a competing show makes more money then that's great. Show both.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Netflix to some extent actually prefers "niche programming". Their mass appeal library and show would sell subscriptions but they'll peak rather quickly as a replacement for cable. Their niche programming is very good at attracting new customers since these customers tend to be more hardcore and they don't have (m)any alternatives. How much of this will remain as Netflix moves towards original programming I don't know, I think that they are likely to move most of their mass appeal programming to originals and just pick up the odd cult classics/fanclub shows and movies and maybe revive a franchise once in awhile.

spike021 10y ago

I think a similar situation happened with 'Chuck'. The last couple seasons of it were produced in such a way that the finales could have worked as series finales since they were never sure it would be extended further. As a result, it had weird sponsorships like from Subway, which meant scenes of the show were pretty much Subway ads. But anyway, my point is that nowadays on Netflix and IMDB the show has lots of ratings and they're generally positive. IMDB has Chuck as 8.2/10 based on 109,543 ratings, which I would think is decent. I think the last time I noticed it, Netflix had it at 4.5 or so out of 5 stars (not sure on overall numbers, however). That show had a great blend of a bunch of genres: cheesy/action/suspense/romance/sci-fi to name just a few. But I think in general this kind of situation is mostly a result of our times. 5+ years ago shows were just really beginning to be widely available (at least to people who didn't torrent online and things like that). Back then you really had to intentionally be around when something aired on TV or you needed to care enough to set it to record to DVR (or heck, even VHS further back). Nowadays it's easy enough to just open up Netflix and continue watching a show sequentially on demand.

jimminy 10y ago
The Chuck writers were brilliant in their fan service in that regard. And it's not only the season finales, they were always on the bubble and never sure if they'd get the back-6 or back-9 of a season. Because of the uncertainty, there are generally 2-3 episodes per season, around either episode 9 or 13, and then including the finales, they would work as series enders.
JshWright 10y ago
We've rewatched Chuck a couple times, but always end on the episode where Ellie has her baby and Chuck proposes to Sarah. After that, it's just too much of a roller coaster (for all the reasons you mentioned).
- spike021 10y ago
  The last couple seasons are still decent, but because of the on again, off again nature of the series that rollercoaster is quite uncomfortable to ride.

okket 10y ago

Amazing how popular this "Western meets Zombies in Space" trope still is.

qznc 10y ago
Zombies?
- kabdib 10y ago
  Reavers, I think he means. [I'm tired of the trope. Probably my least favorite thing about Firefly]
  - 7952 10y ago
    Seems to me that the natural audience for a show like Firefly is actually children, in the same vein as star trek. It will also appeal to adults, but the basic premise is just going to be more appealing to children. The more adult/scary bits of the show felt bolted on and added little. Ironically a "kids" show like buffy morphed into something far more grown up than Firefly ever was.
  - usrusr 10y ago
    Oh, Reavers... the best (only?) way to enjoy Firefly is to pretend that this part of the universe simply does not exist. I guess every show has its low points. The main quality of Firefly was just plain old, maybe somewhat simplistic, character likability. Just like in SG-1. In my case, as I only discovered much later, that was also assisted by the heavy Traveller influence in Firefly. Never played it much, but Traveller (in some of it's incarnations) had always been my personal favorite amongst pen&paper RPGs.
    - ghaff 10y ago
      >The main quality of Firefly was just plain old, maybe somewhat simplistic, character likability. Agreed. In fact, I'd argue that if you take away the appealing and interesting cast and characters from Firefly, you're not left with an awful lot. Of course, characters form the backbone of a lot of shows but science fiction can also be driven by plot, the setting, ideas, etc. in a way that can make the characters less central. But in Firefly if you take away the characters you're mostly stuck with an overdone Western in space motif and generally unmemorable plots.

kchoudhu 10y ago

The list all of the high points for me: Veronica Mars, Jericho and Freaks and Geeks. I also appreciate the presence of Stargate: Universe on the list. Everyone hated it, but I really, really, really enjoyed the different take on the Stargate, er, universe.

TeMPOraL 10y ago
I liked it too. It was a very different Stargate. More dark, more psychological. Some camera takes stolen from BattleStar: Galactica. But it was interesting, and it get much more interesting (the whole cosmic microwave background thing) just before they cut it down :/.
- vidarh 10y ago
  I loved it too. And it was just hilarious how much it looked like the "younger, edgier" version from SG1 "200". One of the best parts of the entire Stargate franchise is the amount of self-referential and self-deprecating humour in it.
RileyKyeden 10y ago
One of the writers warned before the SG:U finale that it would be really bad and disappointing. In reality, it was one of the best episodes with one of the best endings of any SG series.
- kchoudhu 10y ago
  The ending with Eli standing, looking into infinity was simultaneously terrifying and uplifting. SciFi at its very best.

lolive 10y ago

Wow. "Pushing daisies" is listed too:) Really fun WTF show.

Jabbles 10y ago

Surely you would have to compare these with shows that were not cancelled? Firefly received a lot, but was it enough/more than others? Presumably something else should have been cancelled in its place?

grawlinson 10y ago

One season was enough. I don't know about the rest of you, but I quite like small one-off or short-lived TV runs because they often set out to tell a story and once their story is told, that is it. No tacked on extra seasons.

ht_th 10y ago
Agreed. Just tell a good story, take the time it needs, and be done. In my opinion, long-lived series tend to become repetitive and formulaic, escalate beyond measure because somehow there always has to be a new bigger bad (I am looking at you Stargate SG1) or more trumped up storyline. I understand the appeal to keep on going as long as it makes (a lot of) money. But as an appreciator of a good story I just move on to a fresh idea.
- spoiler 10y ago
  I am a really huge fan of Supernatural, but lately it feels like it's kinda getting out of control. On the other hand, I also don't want it cancelled!
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    I was a huge fan too. I loved it till Season 7, gave up on it after Season 9. What bugs me the most is that the things that happen don't make any remote kind of sense anymore. It had some sort of consistent plot for a while, but it started breaking apart since somewhere around S5 / S6.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  I disagree with you on SG-1, though I'd like to bring up Supernatural 'spoiler mentioned as a perfect example of what you're talking about. SG-1, compared to many other overdone shows, had one redeeming quality - the protagonists (in this case, all humans) actually progressed through the course of the show. In SG-1 humans went from 1980s level of technology in Season 1 to spaceships, teleporters and off-world colonies in Season 10. So new 'bigger bad' always made some kind of sense, and I feel there was a space for a few seasons worth of additional interesting ideas. That, or they could have simply continued Stargate: Universe. There is one series I'm really up in arms about it being recently cancelled - Person of Interest. That one was nowhere close to repetitive, it had tons and tons of space for good, intelligent story developments, and it got cancelled behind the crew's back anyway, because whatever. Fuck you, CBS, for cutting out what was probably the only thing in history of television that approached the topic of AI in a smart, realistic way (and also basically broke Snowden's revelations a year before Snowden).

heisenbit 10y ago

There is a lot value and money to be made in the long tail. Simply taking a black box approach and measuring what is easy to measure in the short run is not really useful to predict how many people and how deeply people will engage. Distribution channels for narrow audiences (amazon for books/dvds, netflix/torrents for video) combined with social network dynamics have changed the game. Of course there is also the case that a world event changes the game. One of the most famous failed shows - not in the list - is Startrek. Moonlanding ignited that boom.

jfoutz 10y ago

Fox tried so many crazy things. Brisco County Jr., Dark Angel, Alien Nation. They'd stand by shows that did ok, like x files or fringe, and constantly try random new stuff. Yeah, i'm bummed with the rest of the internet that Firefly got canceled. Some browncoats still have some hate for Fox. But really without fox churning through random ideas, it never would have been made.

masklinn 10y ago
> Some browncoats still have some hate for Fox. But really without fox churning through random ideas, it never would have been made. Much of the hate for fox is not about trying new things or cancelling a failing show, it's that the way they aired the show gave it no chance: Fox changed the episode sequence (airing it in essentially random order destroying any chance of following the underlying plot), promoted it as an action-comedy series, and often interrupting or dropping it in favour of sports. There's a reason the show's "cult status" started mere months after it was cancelled.
cgriswald 10y ago
The browncoat hate for Fox isn't just that the show was cancelled but that it was aired somewhat out of order in inconsistent timeslots and then cancelled it. Fox has set up numerous shows for failure, including Arrested Development, which was aired against Monday Night Football and wasn't aired during sweeps week. How does a show succeed, no matter how good, when it's never given a chance to develop an audience? You're being overly generous to Fox. It's not enough to "try" crazy shows. They're dead in the water if they're set up for failure this way by extremely short term thinking.
- sho_hn 10y ago
  > Fox has set up numerous shows for failure Seems like a dubious claim to me, since it's not in their interest. My guess is that since the most coveted timeslots are a finite resource, they need to make hard calls about placing stable earners in them vs. new shows, for example, or bank on audiences finding those new shows anyway, via directed marketing effots. "Giving a show a chance to develop an audience" is technically achieved by airing it at all, and it's not the only thing they need to get done in a day. You can criticize individual decisions they make, but only if you take that full picture of everything they need to accomodate into account. There can be good reasons why a network doesn't place your favorite show in your preferred timeslot.

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modernerd 10y ago

They used total ratings as a proxy for fan popularity. I sorted by average rating count per day to give a different outlook, as some shows have been available to rate for longer. Firefly (37 ratings a day) is still up there in second place below Terra Nova (38 a day): http://d.pr/i/1119j http://d.pr/i/1119j That doesn't take into consideration the rating values, though; just their quantity. It would be interesting to see ratings per day weighted by user rating, but I couldn't find a way to retrieve that raw data.

douche 10y ago

One of my favorite bits on Family Guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMTmtN7lHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMTmtN7lHI edit TLDW: Rapid-fire listing of 29 shows started and cancelled by Fox in the two years between Family Guy's initial cancellation and revival.

mSparks 10y ago

I really wish they'd finished V and Flashforward too. Both could have been signed off in a few episodes and would of added tons of value to the franchises.

lolive 10y ago

The performance of christina hendricks in Firefly is jaw-dropping !!!

forgettableuser 10y ago

Trivia: Bryan Fuller made the list 3 times with Pushing Daisies, Wonderfalls, and Dead Like Me.

stevekemp 10y ago
Dead Like Me was a great show, which was really getting into its stride (plot-wise) when it was cancelled. Thus far I've resisted the temptation to view the movie they made - largely due to Mandy Patinkin's absence.

Kiro 10y ago

Should I watch the pilot or not before watching the official episodes?

throwanem 10y ago
Watch the series in the order it's presented in the DVD set. The episodes were aired out of order in a way that makes the plot arcs incomprehensible; the DVD set has them in the intended order.

dogma1138 10y ago

Internet ranking for cult shows/movies is problematic, these shows have an extremely loyal fan base which ties the origins of the word fan to it's root fanatic quite often. While these are great shows, the ranking don't necessarily mean much, it just means that there were more fans willing to give the show a good rating, and more likely than not on probably more than a few accounts. It's hard to compare IMDB ratings properly when shows like America's Got Talent or the Voice only have 5000-7000 votes with a pretty shitty score while clearly being considerably more popular with the mass audience. Shows like GoT are an outlier with over 1M votes cast, while even highly acclaimed TV sci fi shows like Star Trek TNG have only about 60K votes. Firefly is the "best tv show that got canceled ever" just like Kim Jong Un is Time's internet person of the year, mostly anonymous internet voting and highly loyal and fanatic fan base can easily skew statistics. I love Firefly I would loved to have seen it live to be 5-6 seasons old, but every time I see people talk about it like it was the "greatest mistake" in modern television programming I can't really take them seriously.

kijin 10y ago
It might not have been the greatest mistake in modern television programming, but the size and enthusiasm of the fan base at least says something about how profitable it might be (or not) if it returned on, say, Netflix. Potential producers might also want to consider factors such as the average age and income of a Firefly fan (since it was aired 13 years ago and remain popular among Silicon Valley geeks) and whether it would be feasible to bring some of the original cast back together and still have an interesting story (Star Wars VII did).
- gravypod 10y ago
  This idea almost makes me want to cancel my Netflix subscription and tell them "I won't buy Netflix unless you do this" Then again I already love what Netflix provides.
- fsloth 10y ago
  " it might be if it returned on, say, Netflix." My Netflix has Firefly. In Finland. Our selection in Netflix in generally very limited, though. Or do you mean Netflix would make new seasons?

mioelnir 10y ago

Wasn't the reason that Rome was canceled after two seasons the fact that their entire wood-built set burnt down? How many more are on this list where it is not differentiated between canceled for ratings vs canceled due to an external event?

fsloth 10y ago
I don't know what actually happened but the public reason stated in the wikipedia page cites budget and the termination of the collaboration contract with BBC as the main reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_(TV_series)

gradstudent 10y ago

I was sad Firefly was cancelled back in the day. Now though? I'd rather Adam Baldwin not receive any support.

fnj 10y ago
Sniff, sniff ... in the absence of specification of any cause, I smell political axe-grinding. I am always perplexed by conflation of political views with professional proficiency.
fsloth 10y ago
If you censor your entertainment based on the perceived morals of the performers you are going to miss on lots of good stuff. For instance I have no problem enjoying the performance Tom Cruise in Mission Impossibles despite his bat-shit crazy position on Scientology. Roman Polanski is a convicted child rapist and that does not stop me from enjoying his films. Etc etc.
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LulzSect 10y ago

Here's an unpopular opinion. Firefly was a terrible show and was rightfully cancelled. Not sure why it is so revered amongst neckbeards. It's a poor rip off of Cowboy Bebop.

fnj 10y ago
Popular or unpopular, you know why you've taken a hit? Because you offer no rationale whatsoever for your opinion.
- LulzSect 10y ago
  Bad acting Over used tropes Unimaginative plots The entire show was a poorly executed "train job".
throwanem 10y ago
You're claiming that the show is a ripoff of an anime, and you don't understand why it has nerdy fans? I don't accept your prior, but it does provide a clear answer to the question with which you have trouble.
- LulzSect 10y ago
  The show is a poorly executed weeaboo fanficton gone wrong. Sorry you're all mad.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    I'm not mad, I'm confused. Even by your own lights you don't seem to be making much sense. Are you sure you've thought your opinion on this all the way through?
    - LulzSect 10y ago
      the show sucks period
10y ago

derekp7 10y ago

Looking over this list (at least for the ones I'm familiar with), most of these shows really require that you see the premier episode (or first several episodes) in order to "get into" it. It is hard for viewers that come in the middle of the season, or the following season. So unless it was really popular from the beginning, they stand a good chance of not picking up ratings later on. Which also explains why they do so good in streaming format -- you can binge watch them from the very beginning.

sotojuan 10y ago
Arrested Development especially rewarded loyal, in-order viewing and hurt "random" (seeing any episode out of order while switching channels) because the show focused a lot on jokes or plot devices made episodes before.
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Silhouette 10y ago
I think there's a kind of reverse effect to the one you described as well: several of the shows on that list had a weak performance during the early part of the season when they were cancelled but then picked up later, presumably after the decision had already been made and it was too late to renew for another season. Watching right through on a streaming service or box set, you remember the strong final episodes, but those probably weren't even considered yet by the time the show was canned.

stevesun21 10y ago

Can I vote just cancel Fox keep cancel tv shows?

fauria 10y ago

It surprises me that there are no mentions to Carnivàle...

Lio 10y ago
Totally agree, it was a great show. You can really see in the second season how the they dithered over killing it. I believe it was originally set to be only 2 seasons, which is fine. Then they decided to extended it, so they added the Sophie plot. Then the execs changed their minds and cancelled it anyway without wrapping up the new plot. Doh! Whilst I was sad Rome only had 2 seasons at least it's fairly self contained and ends well. Deadwood though has to be my top pick for a bad incomplete ending.
- sizzzzlerz 10y ago
  The first two seasons of Deadwood were exceptional with Ian McShane being the primary reason. Season 3 started to lose something by dwelling too long on the evil George Hearst character. I'm not sure the show could have stood up a compelling complete fourth season but I really would have liked some closure instead of yanking the cord like HBO did.
tmnvix 10y ago
It's in there, sixth equal just after Deadwood on the list of "highest average IMDB rating among canceled shows". Damn good show it was too. Of all of the great series' that have been cut short, Carnivale was the one that I most wish hadn't been.
internaut 10y ago
If you liked Carnival there is another canceled show called Utopia. It is the most incredible 2 season conspiracy thriller you shall ever see. I mention it because it has the same Lovecraftian feel that Carnival managed to obtain. It also has a score like no other. Listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2f6MfEzhvo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2f6MfEzhvo

dghughes 10y ago

I really liked Firefly too but it's sad to see Adam Baldwin (Jayne) is so vicious and crazy in real life. Too bad Wash died instead of Jayne.

vanattab 10y ago
How is Adam Baldwin vicious in real life?
- rhapsodic 10y ago
  Probably confusing with Alec Baldwin.
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - zodiakzz 10y ago
    Can't find anything nefarious on Alec's Wiki page but found this on Adam's[1]: Baldwin is credited with having originated the GamerGate hashtag. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Baldwin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Baldwin
    - dghughes 10y ago
      I wasn't even aware of that I'm only referring to his Twitter feed. But anyway life is too short to worry about such things.
- dghughes 10y ago
  Follow him on twitter for 10 seconds and you'll know why. I won't repeat what he says here.
sctb 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12617298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12617298 and marked it off-topic.

IgorPartola 10y ago

If you don't mind getting attached to a brilliant story and characters for a single season, I can't recommend Battleground from Hulu enough. Do yourself a favor and watch it.

sovande 10y ago

The closest successor to Firefly, Dark Matter (minus the cowboy thing) only just made it to season 2 but is now renewed for season 3 by reducing production costs and selling older seasons to Netflix. The new way people are watching TV is on-demand rather than on-air which is dramatically cutting ad-based income for traditional networks. If networks can partner or sell to streaming companies like Netflix it might help long tail shows like Firefly to survive in the future. Another great Syfy show, The Expanse, will hopefully survive that way whereas back in 2003 it would have been axed by now.

mverwijs 10y ago

I am reminded of an interview with Joe Satriani. The interviewer asked if he was worried about recording contracts given that he is not hugely popular. His answer was something along the lines of: I may not be as popular as some, but studios also do not have to spend buckets of money on advertising and marketing when I release an album. My smallish fanbase will buy my albums when they come out regardless. I suspect Netflix is in a better position (now) to cater to those type of fans than Fox was then. Too late for firefly, unfortunately.

dieg0 10y ago

Don't care what the stats say, Brickleberry should be first on that ranking.

ravenstine 10y ago

Oh wow, I can't believe that Rome is #2! That's one of my all-time favorite shows and I've only ever known 1 other person who has even heard of it. I really do recommend it to anyone who likes historical drama with spare-no-expense sets, costumes and visual effects.

mandelbulb 10y ago

Well, Lie to Me had unfortunately been deteriorating so unless they would've employed new writers it isn't that bad it got cancelled. Now we hold only good memories of it.

scrollaway 10y ago
I agree. I was glad Lie to Me got cancelled.

spydum 10y ago

I think it will be very interesting how the major broadcasters/content producers do with Nielsen Total Audience Measurement going live. Remember all these media execs make the live or die calls off those media ratings and ad sales. For over a decade Nielsen has been discounting online viewership. Yes they were covering DVR, but it felt half assed. A lot of people blamed Jericho getting cut because they questioned nielsens numbers.

transfire 10y ago

The worst cancellation I have ever seen was of Caprica. The last show aired made a veiled criticism of Israel policies toward Palestine. It was pulled the next day! The rest of the season be damned. They stuck reruns of ST:NG into the slot. A year later they allowed the final few episodes to be shown and that was the end of that. Since then I am reluctant to watch anything on SyFy.

Razengan 10y ago

I just want this page to have a mention of The Pirates of Dark Water on it somewhere, so here it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pirates_of_Dark_Water https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pirates_of_Dark_Water

forgettableuser 10y ago
You reminded me of Gargoyles which is worth mentioning. Creator Greg Weisman quit over Disney planning to ruin it in Season 3. It was probably a good call because they did ruin Season 3. Weisman had created a detailed story arc that had a couple more centuries to go. He has continued to answer never ending fan questions and reveal details of the story arc for the following 20 years at "Ask Greg" at Station 8 Gargoyles http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/ http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/

brightball 10y ago

Any list that doesn't include Airwolf, tragically cancelled after 3 seasons (the 4th with a totally different cast doesn't count), is missing the mark.

Noos 10y ago
The list doesn't include The Adventures of Brisco County Jr either, which is far more of a true cult series than most of what is listed there.
dottrap 10y ago
Sledge Hammer! 2 seasons. Ran against Cosby as the sacrificial lamb.

solidr53 10y ago

John Doe :(

projektir 10y ago

I wonder how much Firefly has benefited from being cancelled so early. I imagine if Heroes got cancelled after about 10-13 episodes, it'd be very well perceived right now. The subsequent writers' strike mess and not being able to handle an evolving story messed that show up quite a bit. So many shows, even really well done ones, taper off at a point due to various production issues (Babylon 5 comes to mind).

wozniacki 10y ago

Luck is another HBO show that started to show great promise but was cancelled due to the death of some horses, at least according to the show's producers. [1] How to make it in America too was bright but was cancelled due to more conventional reasons. [2] [1] HBO Luck http://www.hbo.com/luck http://www.hbo.com/luck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luck_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luck_(TV_series) [2] HBO How to Make It in America http://www.hbo.com/how-to-make-it-in-america http://www.hbo.com/how-to-make-it-in-america https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Make_It_in_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Make_It_in_America

jccalhoun 10y ago

I thought Firefly was incredibly average. If I were to list the best SciFi shows of all time I don't think it would even occur to me to put it on the list. I honestly can't even think of the plots of any of the episodes. There was one with a guy in a spacesuit, I think it was red? and there was one with cattle or sheep? I don't have anything against it. I just don't really find it remarkable at all. Fans of Firefly, on the other hand, are the absolute worst. I used to have a game and see how many days I could go without reading someone online randomly bringing up how terrible it was that Firefly was cancelled. I rarely made it past Tuesdays.

waldrews 10y ago

Anybody remember what happened to Lone Star? 3 episodes, not 3 seasons, for a critical and cult favorite.

CurtMonash 10y ago

The Buffy vs. Angel vs. Firefly discussion is a good one. Babylon 5, Veronica Mars, and the recent Battlestar Galactica also fit in. Ditto Dollhouse, Heroes, Alias and Lost. I'd say: -- It's just a detail, but recall that the first season of Buffy was actually just a half-season in length. -- The first three seasons of Buffy had a very clear meta-metaphor. :) It posited monsters as being a good representation for what happens in actual high school life. -- That aspect of the show hit its stride in the Buffy/Angel romance: Girl sleeps with guy and he turns into a monster. -- Firefly was good, but nothing in it was as brilliant as, say, the best of Buffy. -- A lot of shows started with a lot of monster-of-the-week/crisis-of-the-week and emphasized the ongoing story more later into the run. But most of the shows cited did at least some standalone stories all the way to the end. (Babylon 5 is one exception). -- Firefly never got past that part of the show's evolution. This may be one reason it never matched Buffy's brilliance. -- Not knowing whether or not a show will be renewed is a huge problem. If you're a fan of Buffy or Angel or Babylon 5, you're familiar with the consequences. -- The writers' strike messed up multiple shows, or at least their audiences. I never went back to watching Battlestar Galactica post-strike. -- Joss Whedon tried to oversee three shows at once. That didn't go well. Each of Buffy, Angel and Firefly deserved more of his attention. -- Dollhouse didn't have real characters, the people running the place excepted. It was never going to work. -- Some shows have a brilliant idea for an overarching story, in which the big story and the individual characters' experiences and arcs mesh beautifully. Then that story comes to a natural end, and the show is never quite as good again. Veronica Mars Season 1 is a great example. Ditto the first 1 1/2 or 2 seasons of Alias. Ditto Babylon 5 after things were wrapped up in Season 4. -- I'd put Battlestar Galactica into the same group. The best part was the first season, as everybody builds a society on the fly )as it were) that can survive against terrible odds. The plots with the election and the defeat and the aftermath weren't as good. And the pseudo-mystical stuff toward the end was just weird.

ghaff 10y ago
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. Babylon 5 was a pretty unfortunate case. There was a lot to love about it but also so much that you have to overlook that it's really hard to recommend, especially a couple decades later (ack! seriously). The effects were pretty low budget at the time--even if somewhat revolutionary for low budget graphics (Amiga). The acting was very uneven. And, generally, as you suggest the uncertainties around renewals through the series run drove too many decisions with respect to the story arc and made the whole ending arc somewhat anticlimactic. I'm also not sure that shows driven so heavily by central mysteries--as B5 was--work very well outside of their original context. (And perhaps in today's on-demand viewing environment more broadly.) I think I liked Battlestar Galactica more than you did overall but agree that the final somewhat mystical arc wasn't a strong finish. Lost didn't close well either after a strong start.