8 ms·

A six-part story of a PTA-president mother, framed for drug possession

131 points by M2Ys4U 10y ago

dmoy 10y ago
Man this reads like something out of a TV drama. Some people I guess can go a bit overboard, maybe borderline delusional when their kids are involved.
- cperciva 10y ago
  Man this reads like something out of a TV drama. I don't think that's a coincidence. People copy what they see -- even if only unconsciously and because it's the first idea which comes to mind -- and for people who have no direct experience with crime, TV dramas make up most of what they have seen about it.
  - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
    I'd guess it's the other way round. I see a lot of fiction which is ripped from the headlines. People are endlessly creatively crazy and ripping off real life is a lot easier than making stuff up.
- zajd 10y ago
  Yeah it's a shame that given the level of their delusion there's no hope of a real satisfying answer for "what the hell were you thinking?"
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    I've seen a few instances of similarly irrational behavior, and the world may be watching a version writ large in the form of Donald Trump. While there's an appeal in holding out hope for a rational explanation, I think that's often simply not the case. Take Timothy McVeigh -- executed relatively shortly after his conviction (I believe he didn't appeal the sentence). One thing we never got was a clear explanation for his actions. But then, I don't think that Sirhan Sirhan or Charles Manson surviving decades of imprisonment did much either. Some people are simply broken.
    - zajd 10y ago
      That was my takeaway as well. If we haven't gotten an answer yet, we never will. Honestly we're spoiled by the internet and way too used to "getting answers" as it is :)
      - dredmorbius 10y ago
        The single-episode self-contained television serial, where all questions are wrapped up within 55 minutes (or is it now 36 with ads?) of airtime may contribute to this as well. I'm finding looking at unquestioned answers somewhat more rewarding than unanswered questions of late.
nerdponx 10y ago
This is sort of tangential to the rest of the article, but I'm glad it was mentioned: > Duff considered the possibilities. In so many places, he thought, it would have gone differently. If the attempted frame-up had happened in one of the gang neighborhoods of Los Angeles where he used to prosecute shootings, rather than in a rich, placid city in Orange County ... if the cop who found the stash of drugs in Kelli Peters’ car had been a rookie, rather than a sharp-eyed veteran ... if she had been slightly less believable ... I know there's a lot of talk about inequality and such on HN lately, but if you're from the US and this paragraph doesn't catch you for a second, in my opinion you need to reexamine your values.
- iiiggglll 10y ago
  Highly illustrative example of privilege. Over and over we're told that Kelli Peters is the perfect victim, that anyone else would not have been believed, yet nowhere other than that one sentence does anyone even come close to pointing out how wrong that is. The whole affair is also an example of the fallout from over-criminalizing everything when it comes to the "War on Drugs" -- mere possession is enough to destroy entire lives, making it easy (and apparently tempting) to use it against one's enemies. Statements from former members of the Nixon administration[1] confirm this is of course intentional, and mainly targeted at minorities. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ehrlichman#War_on_drugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ehrlichman#War_on_drugs
- emcrazyone 10y ago
  yes, for sure, totally agree. Which reminds me of the number one rule - don't talk. Shut up and ask for your attorney. She got lucky and is a prime example of an exception to the norm as many of us know what that means. Again, don't talk to cops. She was foolish to consent to the search without a warrant.
  - awongh 10y ago
    Refusing to talk wouldn't work if you were black or brown though. Either the cop would have looked in the car and found the drugs anyway, or they would have gotten the warrant and found the drugs. At which point you would be threatened with a trial that might not even be that winnable by the prosecution, but that they'd use as a stick to bully you into taking some kind of plea bargain, maybe even without jail time, but now at least you're on probation and/or have a criminal record.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
rdtsc 10y ago
This is a very good example of psychopaths taking advantage of government's irrational response to hurt others. Irrationality here is the War on Drugs. I think that should be talked about in more details in this case. Granted, if it was shorty after a terrorist attack they said she was making bombs in her basement, maybe sprinkle some fertilizer residue on her car. This always happens, it is a common pattern. I remember being told how during Stalin's time it wasn't uncommon for neighbors to rat on each other and say "so and so is against Stalin and making jokes", and magically the whole family disappears after an early morning visit from NKVD. Well they shouldn't have been letting the cows graze that close to the fence, that'll teach them. If War On Drugs wasn't there and cops and society wasn't twitchy and irrational about it, the criminals would have a harder time. This just made it all too easy (and the real reason this is news is because she got way and by strange coincidence the detective wanted to look deeper into the story).
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  I've been thinking for a while now that police overresponse and internal surveillance and control are similar to immune disorders: a hyperactive defense mechanism turns against that which it ought be protecting in the first instance. I'm suspecting this is a general systems problem.
gomijacogeo 10y ago
The 911 call claimed his name was 'Chandraskhar' (I assume a vowel got dropped in there and they meant Chandrasekhar), which isn't a name I'd expect someone to produce at random. But it's a pretty notable one if you have a physics background; Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar won the 1983 Nobel Prize for physics and the 'Chandrasekhar limit' is a well known number in astrophysics. So, I was wondering if someone in all of this would have some connection to astrophysics and lo and behold the crazy wife's dad is an astrophysicist. Makes me guess who wrote the script for the 911 call.
- jlubawy 10y ago
  It said at one point in the article that Easter had made the name up based on his Indian neighbor's name.
  - gomijacogeo 10y ago
    Oh, I must've missed that.
    - qb45 10y ago
      Well, it's not clear if they actually checked if he really had such neighbor.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
abysmallyideal 10y ago
That PTA lady was fortunate. This kinda thing happens all the time with class divides, power struggles, etc. The world ain't civil, and the US simply changed the methods people use. There is so much tit for tat, eye for an eye, you wouldn't be wrong to think it is still the old testament. The story itself is exceptional because she was fortunate there were 20 detectives with nothing better to do. Try to tell a story like this in any other neighborhood. In most cases, police are just trying to prevent those kinds of people from getting violent, and that is if that department is even functional.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 10y ago
  > That PTA lady was fortunate. That reminds of Orwell's account in "Homage to Catalonia" of being shot in the Spanish civil war: “No one I met at this time -- doctors, nurses, practicantes, or fellow-patients-- failed to assure me that a man who is hit through the neck and survives it is the luckiest creature alive. I could not help thinking that it would be even luckier not to be hit at all.”
  - abysmallyideal 10y ago
    People can be selfish, delusional, and cruel. If you take the Western ideals of individualism, a person would be lucky not to have to deal with people like the easters. Matter of fact is, everyone will have to at one point in their life or another.
Aloha 10y ago
Holy Shit. This is the kind of reporting I grew up with from the LAT - normally I wouldn't think of Irvine as a place of righting wrongs, or even justice - but clearly more than just wealth prevailed here. If more peoples interactions with the justice system went like this, we'd be better off. (To be clear I'm an Orange County Native - one does not think of South Orange County as a place of great crime - largely speeding tickets, and minor violations.)
- bigtones 10y ago
  Yes, it was a brilliantly written article and very engaging right to the end. A great read and I had a real sense of justice done against those two by the end of the piece. That Easter woman was insane.
solidsnack9000 10y ago
I hope we'll find out if they are hiding any money and they'll have to pay eventually.
- spacehome 10y ago
  I'm not so sure that's justice in this case, or in general. If someone has already spent time in jail and has a felony on their record, erasing the possibility of utilizing their law degree, do we need to punish them further? What does "paying one's debt to society" mean?
  - solidsnack9000 10y ago
    The civil penalty would hopefully go to the woman they harmed and not to society in general. It's not about paying their debt to society in the abstract but rather about making their very concrete victim whole.
icantdrive55 10y ago
"The sociopath next door" I read this, and I was honestly shocked anyone could be so petty. That said, I have a weird story about a neighbor. I'll keep it short, and change some of the details. I don't think they would ever be on this site, but who knows? They weren't bad people, but they just suprised me. Here goes-- Years ago a young couple moved in to a house adjacent to ours. Nice young couple. They even brought over a gift. I thanked them, and said, "If you need anything, I'm here a lot. I'm self-employed right now." They seemed to want me to know they were both Architects. They must have told me three times they were both Architects--in a few minute conversation? They were definetly a differnt generation than mine, and I remember the "What do you do" introductory questions. I never liked them. I remember really tiring of them them in the bar scene. "And what do you do?" I once told a young lady, I was a Proof reader in the pornography industry. Another, "A professional Drinker." Her, "Ewe", or something like that. Back to that first encounter, I figured they were just glad to be finished with school, and trying to network. They were proud of their professions, and that's fine. I knew right away I had nothing in common with the male Architect. We were just two different people. I remember I was working on my car, and my hands were filthy. I knew he wasen't the type of guy who ever got his hands dirty. That's fine, I'm just one of those guys. I try not to pay people for stuffI can do myself, and I was always just getting by financially. I couldn't afford to hire anyone for anything. There was just something about him, but I couldn't put a finger on it. Outwardly nice, but something seemed phoney. I was inwardly hoping they wouldn't invite me over for any socials. It turned out they weren't social. Anyway, I never gave them much thought. In my neighborhood, we don't know eachother. It might sound weird, but you get used to it, and kinda of begin to like it. We shared a property line. One day he wanted to replace a fence, but he claimed I was encroaching on his property line--by a few inches. I was kinda shocked. I asked him, "How do you know?" Oh---I can just tell. You know, "I'm an Architect?" Yea--I was shocked. I felt like telling him, "I'm an inactive general contractor", but dummied up. He caught me off guard. (I knew new when these houses were built, the set back linewas 5 feet, and 6 feet for two story homes. He was in a one story ranch style home. If anything, he was on our property?) I told him get a survey, and put the fence wherever the line is. I walked away thinking, that was kinda weird? A few years went by. He got a survey. Never heard from him. They had a kid. Maybe five years went by, and I honestly forgot their names. The then got another survey. I think it was a friend of his, because he was helping--holding the markers, etc. I knew I wasen't on his property, but he seemed determined to get a survey proving me wrong. A few more years went by. They had another baby. In all the years I lived next to them, we would wave, say hi on garbage day, but we really didn't know eachother. I just knew his wife worked, and he took care of the kids. I thought that was great. I thought he was a great father. They were a great couple! They seemed so normal. Never a fight. Just a quiet couple. He liked to wear a tie though. Never got that one. Why wear a tie around the house? One day, I was walking home from work, and saw a sign. "Free baby monitor. It works." I thought of my next door neighbors, and picked it up. I knew I wasen't going to knock on their door, but I might just put the monitor on their driveway. Plus--I like to fix disgarded electronics, or see how they are made. I was thinking of taking it apart to see how it was built, or maybe scavage any caps, resistors, etc. They didn't seem the type to have anything used, and I get that, but this baby monitor still had the stickers on it. It didn't look used. Put shrink wrap on it, and it would be new. I decided to keep it. They probally would want it. So, I'm at my workbench, and device this is just too nice to take apart. I decide to give it to my neighbors. I did want to test it before I put it one their property though. It's about 6 in the afternoon. I turn it on, and I hear people talking. "Wow!!" I was startled. It literally scared me. Then it kicked it; they must have a baby monitor, and it's on the same channel? Horrid security though! I immediately turned it off, but I couldn't help myself. It was just so clear. I was impressed with the radio's frequency power. So---I turned it back on. I thought I will just listen a little bit. I then heard my name. I thought they couldn't be talking about me. We have talked maybe three times in 10 years? But they were talking about me. I heard, "If he doesn't shut that dog up, I'm going to call the humane society." "Did you see his hair lately?" "Who's that new girl that comes over late?" I was floored. I didn't think they knew my name. I thought, what are the odds they just happened to be talking about me at that point in time? They must dislike me? Or, they are people I will never quite "get". I honestly didn't want to know, or listen. I turned that radio off. It really did hurt my feelings though. I actually thought they liked me. Well--I threw the baby monitor away. They ended up moving. They see me sometimes at Safeway, and both have huge smiles. I wave back--hoping my hair looked o.k.. I get in my car, and try to smooch down my poofy hair. Crazy people--crazy world?
rabboRubble 10y ago
I'm struck by the following sentence... "Duff was struck by how thoroughly the Irvine police had investigated a crime in which the victim had suffered no physical harm." She definitely suffered the threat of physical harm. As we've seen over and over, contact with the police can have fatal consequences for the civilian. Furthermore, being jailed and incarcerated is a physical harm. It's like the investigating police actually recognized this!

131 points by M2Ys4U 10y ago

dmoy 10y ago

Man this reads like something out of a TV drama. Some people I guess can go a bit overboard, maybe borderline delusional when their kids are involved.

cperciva 10y ago
Man this reads like something out of a TV drama. I don't think that's a coincidence. People copy what they see -- even if only unconsciously and because it's the first idea which comes to mind -- and for people who have no direct experience with crime, TV dramas make up most of what they have seen about it.
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  I'd guess it's the other way round. I see a lot of fiction which is ripped from the headlines. People are endlessly creatively crazy and ripping off real life is a lot easier than making stuff up.
zajd 10y ago
Yeah it's a shame that given the level of their delusion there's no hope of a real satisfying answer for "what the hell were you thinking?"
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  I've seen a few instances of similarly irrational behavior, and the world may be watching a version writ large in the form of Donald Trump. While there's an appeal in holding out hope for a rational explanation, I think that's often simply not the case. Take Timothy McVeigh -- executed relatively shortly after his conviction (I believe he didn't appeal the sentence). One thing we never got was a clear explanation for his actions. But then, I don't think that Sirhan Sirhan or Charles Manson surviving decades of imprisonment did much either. Some people are simply broken.
  - zajd 10y ago
    That was my takeaway as well. If we haven't gotten an answer yet, we never will. Honestly we're spoiled by the internet and way too used to "getting answers" as it is :)
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      The single-episode self-contained television serial, where all questions are wrapped up within 55 minutes (or is it now 36 with ads?) of airtime may contribute to this as well. I'm finding looking at unquestioned answers somewhat more rewarding than unanswered questions of late.

nerdponx 10y ago

This is sort of tangential to the rest of the article, but I'm glad it was mentioned: > Duff considered the possibilities. In so many places, he thought, it would have gone differently. If the attempted frame-up had happened in one of the gang neighborhoods of Los Angeles where he used to prosecute shootings, rather than in a rich, placid city in Orange County ... if the cop who found the stash of drugs in Kelli Peters’ car had been a rookie, rather than a sharp-eyed veteran ... if she had been slightly less believable ... I know there's a lot of talk about inequality and such on HN lately, but if you're from the US and this paragraph doesn't catch you for a second, in my opinion you need to reexamine your values.

iiiggglll 10y ago
Highly illustrative example of privilege. Over and over we're told that Kelli Peters is the perfect victim, that anyone else would not have been believed, yet nowhere other than that one sentence does anyone even come close to pointing out how wrong that is. The whole affair is also an example of the fallout from over-criminalizing everything when it comes to the "War on Drugs" -- mere possession is enough to destroy entire lives, making it easy (and apparently tempting) to use it against one's enemies. Statements from former members of the Nixon administration[1] confirm this is of course intentional, and mainly targeted at minorities. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ehrlichman#War_on_drugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ehrlichman#War_on_drugs
emcrazyone 10y ago
yes, for sure, totally agree. Which reminds me of the number one rule - don't talk. Shut up and ask for your attorney. She got lucky and is a prime example of an exception to the norm as many of us know what that means. Again, don't talk to cops. She was foolish to consent to the search without a warrant.
- awongh 10y ago
  Refusing to talk wouldn't work if you were black or brown though. Either the cop would have looked in the car and found the drugs anyway, or they would have gotten the warrant and found the drugs. At which point you would be threatened with a trial that might not even be that winnable by the prosecution, but that they'd use as a stick to bully you into taking some kind of plea bargain, maybe even without jail time, but now at least you're on probation and/or have a criminal record.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

rdtsc 10y ago

This is a very good example of psychopaths taking advantage of government's irrational response to hurt others. Irrationality here is the War on Drugs. I think that should be talked about in more details in this case. Granted, if it was shorty after a terrorist attack they said she was making bombs in her basement, maybe sprinkle some fertilizer residue on her car. This always happens, it is a common pattern. I remember being told how during Stalin's time it wasn't uncommon for neighbors to rat on each other and say "so and so is against Stalin and making jokes", and magically the whole family disappears after an early morning visit from NKVD. Well they shouldn't have been letting the cows graze that close to the fence, that'll teach them. If War On Drugs wasn't there and cops and society wasn't twitchy and irrational about it, the criminals would have a harder time. This just made it all too easy (and the real reason this is news is because she got way and by strange coincidence the detective wanted to look deeper into the story).

dredmorbius 10y ago
I've been thinking for a while now that police overresponse and internal surveillance and control are similar to immune disorders: a hyperactive defense mechanism turns against that which it ought be protecting in the first instance. I'm suspecting this is a general systems problem.

gomijacogeo 10y ago

The 911 call claimed his name was 'Chandraskhar' (I assume a vowel got dropped in there and they meant Chandrasekhar), which isn't a name I'd expect someone to produce at random. But it's a pretty notable one if you have a physics background; Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar won the 1983 Nobel Prize for physics and the 'Chandrasekhar limit' is a well known number in astrophysics. So, I was wondering if someone in all of this would have some connection to astrophysics and lo and behold the crazy wife's dad is an astrophysicist. Makes me guess who wrote the script for the 911 call.

jlubawy 10y ago
It said at one point in the article that Easter had made the name up based on his Indian neighbor's name.
- gomijacogeo 10y ago
  Oh, I must've missed that.
  - qb45 10y ago
    Well, it's not clear if they actually checked if he really had such neighbor.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

abysmallyideal 10y ago

That PTA lady was fortunate. This kinda thing happens all the time with class divides, power struggles, etc. The world ain't civil, and the US simply changed the methods people use. There is so much tit for tat, eye for an eye, you wouldn't be wrong to think it is still the old testament. The story itself is exceptional because she was fortunate there were 20 detectives with nothing better to do. Try to tell a story like this in any other neighborhood. In most cases, police are just trying to prevent those kinds of people from getting violent, and that is if that department is even functional.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
icebraining 10y ago
> That PTA lady was fortunate. That reminds of Orwell's account in "Homage to Catalonia" of being shot in the Spanish civil war: “No one I met at this time -- doctors, nurses, practicantes, or fellow-patients-- failed to assure me that a man who is hit through the neck and survives it is the luckiest creature alive. I could not help thinking that it would be even luckier not to be hit at all.”
- abysmallyideal 10y ago
  People can be selfish, delusional, and cruel. If you take the Western ideals of individualism, a person would be lucky not to have to deal with people like the easters. Matter of fact is, everyone will have to at one point in their life or another.

Aloha 10y ago

Holy Shit. This is the kind of reporting I grew up with from the LAT - normally I wouldn't think of Irvine as a place of righting wrongs, or even justice - but clearly more than just wealth prevailed here. If more peoples interactions with the justice system went like this, we'd be better off. (To be clear I'm an Orange County Native - one does not think of South Orange County as a place of great crime - largely speeding tickets, and minor violations.)

bigtones 10y ago
Yes, it was a brilliantly written article and very engaging right to the end. A great read and I had a real sense of justice done against those two by the end of the piece. That Easter woman was insane.

solidsnack9000 10y ago

I hope we'll find out if they are hiding any money and they'll have to pay eventually.

spacehome 10y ago
I'm not so sure that's justice in this case, or in general. If someone has already spent time in jail and has a felony on their record, erasing the possibility of utilizing their law degree, do we need to punish them further? What does "paying one's debt to society" mean?
- solidsnack9000 10y ago
  The civil penalty would hopefully go to the woman they harmed and not to society in general. It's not about paying their debt to society in the abstract but rather about making their very concrete victim whole.

icantdrive55 10y ago

"The sociopath next door" I read this, and I was honestly shocked anyone could be so petty. That said, I have a weird story about a neighbor. I'll keep it short, and change some of the details. I don't think they would ever be on this site, but who knows? They weren't bad people, but they just suprised me. Here goes-- Years ago a young couple moved in to a house adjacent to ours. Nice young couple. They even brought over a gift. I thanked them, and said, "If you need anything, I'm here a lot. I'm self-employed right now." They seemed to want me to know they were both Architects. They must have told me three times they were both Architects--in a few minute conversation? They were definetly a differnt generation than mine, and I remember the "What do you do" introductory questions. I never liked them. I remember really tiring of them them in the bar scene. "And what do you do?" I once told a young lady, I was a Proof reader in the pornography industry. Another, "A professional Drinker." Her, "Ewe", or something like that. Back to that first encounter, I figured they were just glad to be finished with school, and trying to network. They were proud of their professions, and that's fine. I knew right away I had nothing in common with the male Architect. We were just two different people. I remember I was working on my car, and my hands were filthy. I knew he wasen't the type of guy who ever got his hands dirty. That's fine, I'm just one of those guys. I try not to pay people for stuffI can do myself, and I was always just getting by financially. I couldn't afford to hire anyone for anything. There was just something about him, but I couldn't put a finger on it. Outwardly nice, but something seemed phoney. I was inwardly hoping they wouldn't invite me over for any socials. It turned out they weren't social. Anyway, I never gave them much thought. In my neighborhood, we don't know eachother. It might sound weird, but you get used to it, and kinda of begin to like it. We shared a property line. One day he wanted to replace a fence, but he claimed I was encroaching on his property line--by a few inches. I was kinda shocked. I asked him, "How do you know?" Oh---I can just tell. You know, "I'm an Architect?" Yea--I was shocked. I felt like telling him, "I'm an inactive general contractor", but dummied up. He caught me off guard. (I knew new when these houses were built, the set back linewas 5 feet, and 6 feet for two story homes. He was in a one story ranch style home. If anything, he was on our property?) I told him get a survey, and put the fence wherever the line is. I walked away thinking, that was kinda weird? A few years went by. He got a survey. Never heard from him. They had a kid. Maybe five years went by, and I honestly forgot their names. The then got another survey. I think it was a friend of his, because he was helping--holding the markers, etc. I knew I wasen't on his property, but he seemed determined to get a survey proving me wrong. A few more years went by. They had another baby. In all the years I lived next to them, we would wave, say hi on garbage day, but we really didn't know eachother. I just knew his wife worked, and he took care of the kids. I thought that was great. I thought he was a great father. They were a great couple! They seemed so normal. Never a fight. Just a quiet couple. He liked to wear a tie though. Never got that one. Why wear a tie around the house? One day, I was walking home from work, and saw a sign. "Free baby monitor. It works." I thought of my next door neighbors, and picked it up. I knew I wasen't going to knock on their door, but I might just put the monitor on their driveway. Plus--I like to fix disgarded electronics, or see how they are made. I was thinking of taking it apart to see how it was built, or maybe scavage any caps, resistors, etc. They didn't seem the type to have anything used, and I get that, but this baby monitor still had the stickers on it. It didn't look used. Put shrink wrap on it, and it would be new. I decided to keep it. They probally would want it. So, I'm at my workbench, and device this is just too nice to take apart. I decide to give it to my neighbors. I did want to test it before I put it one their property though. It's about 6 in the afternoon. I turn it on, and I hear people talking. "Wow!!" I was startled. It literally scared me. Then it kicked it; they must have a baby monitor, and it's on the same channel? Horrid security though! I immediately turned it off, but I couldn't help myself. It was just so clear. I was impressed with the radio's frequency power. So---I turned it back on. I thought I will just listen a little bit. I then heard my name. I thought they couldn't be talking about me. We have talked maybe three times in 10 years? But they were talking about me. I heard, "If he doesn't shut that dog up, I'm going to call the humane society." "Did you see his hair lately?" "Who's that new girl that comes over late?" I was floored. I didn't think they knew my name. I thought, what are the odds they just happened to be talking about me at that point in time? They must dislike me? Or, they are people I will never quite "get". I honestly didn't want to know, or listen. I turned that radio off. It really did hurt my feelings though. I actually thought they liked me. Well--I threw the baby monitor away. They ended up moving. They see me sometimes at Safeway, and both have huge smiles. I wave back--hoping my hair looked o.k.. I get in my car, and try to smooch down my poofy hair. Crazy people--crazy world?

rabboRubble 10y ago

I'm struck by the following sentence... "Duff was struck by how thoroughly the Irvine police had investigated a crime in which the victim had suffered no physical harm." She definitely suffered the threat of physical harm. As we've seen over and over, contact with the police can have fatal consequences for the civilian. Furthermore, being jailed and incarcerated is a physical harm. It's like the investigating police actually recognized this!