7 ms·

Anecdotally: I wanted the cheapest possible new car for commuting around the Bay Area. After some research, I found the Spark EV for only $60/month after rebat

by rusbus 10y ago

Anecdotally: I wanted the cheapest possible new car for commuting around the Bay Area. After some research, I found the Spark EV for only $60/month after rebates. With insurance it's only$5/day. I assumed electric cars were defacto expensive until I actually researched it. No idea why more people don't pick up these cars. (Probably because it only goes 80 miles)

mason240 10y ago
>(Probably because it only goes 80 miles) Which for the majority of 2 car households is all you need for the second car.
- epistasis 10y ago
  Quite true, and since its cheaper to operate it will usually be the primary car, with the secondary car only used for longer trips.
- smoyer 10y ago
  I drive my car (our designated second car) an average of just 12 miles per day. Fuel economy is an extremely low priority since it's dwarfed by other costs. Reliability is my number one priority - if I don't have to pay to repair it very often, it will still be in the driveway for another 15 years (yes - it's 15 years old and has close to 200k miles on it). At this point, I'm also saving the environment by keeping it out of the junkyard. EDIT: I should also mention that when the wind is favorable, it's also responsible for towing my yacht to the water - something a small plugin hybrid will never do.
jdavis703 10y ago
Well if you rent you can't really buy an electric vehicle, because where will you charge it?
- mikeash 10y ago
  Some places offer charging in their attached parking. Some workplaces offer charging as well, so you can charge there during the day, and leave it unplugged at night. Neither one is commonly available (yet?) though.
- chadgeidel 10y ago
  This is the biggest issue for me. I would happily pay for any metered electricity to a parking spot in my apartment complex, but the managers aren't interested. And my building was built in 2014!
  - epistasis 10y ago
    If you live in California, in a multi-unit dwelling, they can't prevent you from installing your own charging port (which could be as simple as a standard 120V). The bill is AB 2565. You do need to carry an umbrella insurance policy, and come up with all the plans: http://www.natlawreview.com/article/california-update-new-laws-give-residential-and-commercial-tenants-rights-to-install http://www.natlawreview.com/article/california-update-new-la...
    - NotSammyHagar 10y ago
      And you can charge a lot in 12 hours at 120v. A tesla can add 3-4 miles of range per hour of charging, so overnight, you get 3.5*12 = 42 miles added. Teslas can charge at higher power, but it's often not necessary. Other cars, like the leaf can charge similar or slightly larger range at that amount of power because they are generally lighter. 120v outlet and daily range use of less than 40 miles and you are set. In the winter, if you run a heater, you will of course use more power (gas cars get almost free heat because they are ICE). So you need a spot to charge, at least a 120v outlet. The next limitation is quick recharge. If I want to drive somewhere at the range of my car (say 80 miles with a leaf or i3, or 250 miles with a model s), and then I want to do my business, quickly recharge and go back home right away, you need a faster recharge, like an hour. Chademo can do this for leafs, supercharger handles that for teslas but they are rarer. Tesla can use chademo with an extra cost adapter, but they can also use high power ac (80 amps 220v) and charge 60+ miles of range added per charging hour.
- givinguflac 10y ago
  EV driver who rents here, I charge at work, at a free station a mile from my house, or I run a heavy duty extension cable out to my car. My landlords are cool so YMMV but it's definitely doable depending on your setup.
wccrawford 10y ago
One reason might be that it's just not available in their area. I just went looking at the Chevy Spark EV (since it was so low in the charts and base price both) and find it's only available in participating dealers in like 3 or 4 states.
- greyboy 10y ago
  Yeah, that would explain a lot: Available At Participating Dealers In California, Oregon And Maryland In Limited Quantities.
tinbad 10y ago
Hate to say it but this is part of the problem. There's nothing sustainable about these manufacturer/government sponsored lease deals. California is the biggest offender with the largest incentives and unreal regulations. A car is a long term consumer good, the energy that goes into building one outweighs the 2-3 year leases these cars are offered at loss prices. What happens when these leases are up? Most owners will walk, because why pay big bucks to buy out the car if you can get into another one for $50/month. These cars will end up being bought back en masse by the manufacturers and it's a big question what will happen then. Very likely to be scraped and, again, lots of energy wasted. All thanks to Californias EV credit system. Edit: lol downvote all you want, the reality won't change. If you understand the economics of these leases (see my other comment) you'll see it too...
- usefulcat 10y ago
  That makes no sense. Why would the lessor scrap the car rather than sell it at the end of the lease?
  - tinbad 10y ago
    Let me explain how these leases work, MSRP for OPs Chevy Spark EV is in the 25k ball park, lessen the 7k government incentives is 18k. If OP is paying 80/mo (we don't know if that payment includes sales tax but let's say even if it doesn't) that's 2880 paid over a typical 3 year/10k mile a year lease. So now the balance on the car is 15k. Looking at cars.com a comparable EV Nissan Leaf (Spark EVs haven't been around for that long) 3 years old with 30k miles are going for 7-10k range. Now who do you think pays for that difference? And that's even assuming these cars all can be sold. Scraping is a bit extreme but is definitely not unheard of. The issue with EVs is that where most ICE cars can be sold at auction and exported to other countries, EVs aren't desirable to that market since there's a lack of infrastructure for them to be usable in, let's say, Latin America or Africa.
    - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
      I don't follow the maths. A leasing company has a vehicle that they've got 15K "left" to pay off on, and they can only sell it for 10K so they'll just pay money to scrap it instead? How does that make sense for them? If there is some monetary incentive for them to do this, you've not outlined who is paying it to them. And even if it exists, that's the problem, not the up front incentives.
russum 10y ago
> for only $60/month after rebates How is that possible? Even if you got a 72-month loan that would only be $4,320 with the MSRP being 'From $25,120'.
- epistasis 10y ago
  I would love to hear from somebody that knows more, but I believe that the leasing company takes the $7500 federal tax credit, and the buyer takes the $2500 California tax credit. So on a, say, 3 year lease, that's $2,160 in lease payments, and $10,000 in tax credits, and if the residual value after three years is $13,000 or more, then the numbers mostly add up. I tried to talk to the dealer about this when I leased a Fiat 500e, but as is typical with dealers they were all lies and untrustworthiness, so I have no clue of their financials. I never want to step foot in a dealership again, if possible...
  - givinguflac 10y ago
    I can't speak for CA but what you described is how it works in MA
  - mywittyname 10y ago
    I posted this elsewhere, but here goes... California requires car companies to sell a certain number of EVs in order to sell other cars in the state. So companies take their cheapest model, convert it into a passable EV, then their financing arm offers nice incentives to get them out the door and the parent company eats the difference as a cost of doing business in California.
jsingleton 10y ago
One issue could be that you need somewhere to charge it. A lot of properties (particularly in the UK) don't have off-street parking and you need to park on the road. So even if you own the building you can't install a useful charging point. However, there's a Tesla Model S and a couple of Nissan Leaf EVs parked on a road near me and they must be getting charged somewhere. Perhaps at work?
- jsingleton 10y ago
  Thinking about this a bit more, there's an interesting startup opportunity in matching the supply and demand of charging points. Some sort of sharing economy marketplace for renting out your parking spot that has an EV charging point.
  - tzs 10y ago
    How about a subscription charge delivery service? A Chevy Spark on a fast charger reaches 80% in about 20 minutes. A Nissan Leaf is about half an hour. You subscribe and the service sends a truck every night with a fast charger powered by a big battery bank to your street and charges your car for you while you sleep.

by rusbus 10y ago

mason240 10y ago

>(Probably because it only goes 80 miles) Which for the majority of 2 car households is all you need for the second car.

epistasis 10y ago
Quite true, and since its cheaper to operate it will usually be the primary car, with the secondary car only used for longer trips.
smoyer 10y ago
I drive my car (our designated second car) an average of just 12 miles per day. Fuel economy is an extremely low priority since it's dwarfed by other costs. Reliability is my number one priority - if I don't have to pay to repair it very often, it will still be in the driveway for another 15 years (yes - it's 15 years old and has close to 200k miles on it). At this point, I'm also saving the environment by keeping it out of the junkyard. EDIT: I should also mention that when the wind is favorable, it's also responsible for towing my yacht to the water - something a small plugin hybrid will never do.

jdavis703 10y ago

Well if you rent you can't really buy an electric vehicle, because where will you charge it?

mikeash 10y ago
Some places offer charging in their attached parking. Some workplaces offer charging as well, so you can charge there during the day, and leave it unplugged at night. Neither one is commonly available (yet?) though.
chadgeidel 10y ago
This is the biggest issue for me. I would happily pay for any metered electricity to a parking spot in my apartment complex, but the managers aren't interested. And my building was built in 2014!
- epistasis 10y ago
  If you live in California, in a multi-unit dwelling, they can't prevent you from installing your own charging port (which could be as simple as a standard 120V). The bill is AB 2565. You do need to carry an umbrella insurance policy, and come up with all the plans: http://www.natlawreview.com/article/california-update-new-laws-give-residential-and-commercial-tenants-rights-to-install http://www.natlawreview.com/article/california-update-new-la...
  - NotSammyHagar 10y ago
    And you can charge a lot in 12 hours at 120v. A tesla can add 3-4 miles of range per hour of charging, so overnight, you get 3.5*12 = 42 miles added. Teslas can charge at higher power, but it's often not necessary. Other cars, like the leaf can charge similar or slightly larger range at that amount of power because they are generally lighter. 120v outlet and daily range use of less than 40 miles and you are set. In the winter, if you run a heater, you will of course use more power (gas cars get almost free heat because they are ICE). So you need a spot to charge, at least a 120v outlet. The next limitation is quick recharge. If I want to drive somewhere at the range of my car (say 80 miles with a leaf or i3, or 250 miles with a model s), and then I want to do my business, quickly recharge and go back home right away, you need a faster recharge, like an hour. Chademo can do this for leafs, supercharger handles that for teslas but they are rarer. Tesla can use chademo with an extra cost adapter, but they can also use high power ac (80 amps 220v) and charge 60+ miles of range added per charging hour.
givinguflac 10y ago
EV driver who rents here, I charge at work, at a free station a mile from my house, or I run a heavy duty extension cable out to my car. My landlords are cool so YMMV but it's definitely doable depending on your setup.

wccrawford 10y ago

One reason might be that it's just not available in their area. I just went looking at the Chevy Spark EV (since it was so low in the charts and base price both) and find it's only available in participating dealers in like 3 or 4 states.

greyboy 10y ago
Yeah, that would explain a lot: Available At Participating Dealers In California, Oregon And Maryland In Limited Quantities.

tinbad 10y ago

Hate to say it but this is part of the problem. There's nothing sustainable about these manufacturer/government sponsored lease deals. California is the biggest offender with the largest incentives and unreal regulations. A car is a long term consumer good, the energy that goes into building one outweighs the 2-3 year leases these cars are offered at loss prices. What happens when these leases are up? Most owners will walk, because why pay big bucks to buy out the car if you can get into another one for $50/month. These cars will end up being bought back en masse by the manufacturers and it's a big question what will happen then. Very likely to be scraped and, again, lots of energy wasted. All thanks to Californias EV credit system. Edit: lol downvote all you want, the reality won't change. If you understand the economics of these leases (see my other comment) you'll see it too...

usefulcat 10y ago
That makes no sense. Why would the lessor scrap the car rather than sell it at the end of the lease?
- tinbad 10y ago
  Let me explain how these leases work, MSRP for OPs Chevy Spark EV is in the 25k ball park, lessen the 7k government incentives is 18k. If OP is paying 80/mo (we don't know if that payment includes sales tax but let's say even if it doesn't) that's 2880 paid over a typical 3 year/10k mile a year lease. So now the balance on the car is 15k. Looking at cars.com a comparable EV Nissan Leaf (Spark EVs haven't been around for that long) 3 years old with 30k miles are going for 7-10k range. Now who do you think pays for that difference? And that's even assuming these cars all can be sold. Scraping is a bit extreme but is definitely not unheard of. The issue with EVs is that where most ICE cars can be sold at auction and exported to other countries, EVs aren't desirable to that market since there's a lack of infrastructure for them to be usable in, let's say, Latin America or Africa.
  - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
    I don't follow the maths. A leasing company has a vehicle that they've got 15K "left" to pay off on, and they can only sell it for 10K so they'll just pay money to scrap it instead? How does that make sense for them? If there is some monetary incentive for them to do this, you've not outlined who is paying it to them. And even if it exists, that's the problem, not the up front incentives.

russum 10y ago

> for only $60/month after rebates How is that possible? Even if you got a 72-month loan that would only be $4,320 with the MSRP being 'From $25,120'.

epistasis 10y ago
I would love to hear from somebody that knows more, but I believe that the leasing company takes the $7500 federal tax credit, and the buyer takes the $2500 California tax credit. So on a, say, 3 year lease, that's $2,160 in lease payments, and $10,000 in tax credits, and if the residual value after three years is $13,000 or more, then the numbers mostly add up. I tried to talk to the dealer about this when I leased a Fiat 500e, but as is typical with dealers they were all lies and untrustworthiness, so I have no clue of their financials. I never want to step foot in a dealership again, if possible...
- givinguflac 10y ago
  I can't speak for CA but what you described is how it works in MA
- mywittyname 10y ago
  I posted this elsewhere, but here goes... California requires car companies to sell a certain number of EVs in order to sell other cars in the state. So companies take their cheapest model, convert it into a passable EV, then their financing arm offers nice incentives to get them out the door and the parent company eats the difference as a cost of doing business in California.

jsingleton 10y ago

One issue could be that you need somewhere to charge it. A lot of properties (particularly in the UK) don't have off-street parking and you need to park on the road. So even if you own the building you can't install a useful charging point. However, there's a Tesla Model S and a couple of Nissan Leaf EVs parked on a road near me and they must be getting charged somewhere. Perhaps at work?

jsingleton 10y ago
Thinking about this a bit more, there's an interesting startup opportunity in matching the supply and demand of charging points. Some sort of sharing economy marketplace for renting out your parking spot that has an EV charging point.
- tzs 10y ago
  How about a subscription charge delivery service? A Chevy Spark on a fast charger reaches 80% in about 20 minutes. A Nissan Leaf is about half an hour. You subscribe and the service sends a truck every night with a fast charger powered by a big battery bank to your street and charges your car for you while you sleep.