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This is...insane. The whole point of the App Store is to help in discovery and I already pay a 30% cut for my app. And now they want to charge me for promoting

This is...insane. The whole point of the App Store is to help in discovery and I already pay a 30% cut for my app. And now they want to charge me for promoting my app in their store. This should just be a built-in part of the App Store story for the customers. This is why Apple customers pay a premium. Instead Apple sees an opportunity here to make even more money off me / the app authors? Hats off to Apple. First, they charge developers to even develop for their platform (though this has become free off late). They only allow developing on their Macs. Then they take 30% cut of apps and also in-app purchases. And now they want more money to promote stuff in their store. I don't know what to say. I am sure this will be a raging success as well :/

brian-armstrong 10y ago
Also, I think it's worth combining this news with the fact that they restricted the length of app titles in order to combat app store seo. Why not just fix search in the first place? This definitely feels like an engineering shortcoming on Apple's behalf.
Kronopath 10y ago
People are already paying to promote apps though. I've heard of plenty of app developers paying for huge numbers of app installs in bulk in order to get them to the App Store's top downloaded lists. This is Apple trying to capture some of that market and bring it away from these kinds of shady practices.
- the_common_man 10y ago
  Yes, so let it be free of charge. Why is there any cost involved here for the app developer?
  - ljk 10y ago
    Probably because Apple can..
  - joemi 10y ago
    If it were free, wouldn't everyone do it, thereby negating any benefit?
  - zbuttram 10y ago
    So instead of ads you want a system where random relevant apps are floated to the top of searches? How is that helpful for anyone? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like Apple is only doing what every other search system with embedded ads at the top does.
    - the_common_man 10y ago
      So you are saying Google search is useful only because of ads?
      - notatoad 10y ago
        for many search terms, and in my opinion, yes. a typical use case on an app store is searching for something like the example given on apple's promo page here: "photo filters". neither the app store or google has enough intelligence to make a decision about what the best result is, given a query that vague and returning that many results. the most useful thing they can actually display is likely an ad. try searching for something like "car insurance" on google with adblock turned off - the majority of the visible page area will be used by some sort of ad unit, and the native results are pretty useless.
eridius 10y ago
It is a built-in part of the App Store. But the app store is so crowded that once you fall off the front page, there's not much you can do within the store (besides hope that Apple decides to feature you after some big update). The reason why search ads are actually good for customers is because it promotes apps that are backed by companies that a) still care about their app, and b) can afford to actually promote the app. This means the app is much more likely to be under active development and to be usable in the future. And surely any company that's interested in search ads is already purchasing ads on web search engines and whatnot, so it really shouldn't be a big deal.
- the_common_man 10y ago
  This is poor logic. Promoting has nothing to do with how well supported the app is. All we will see is people with money push their apps and trying to make up for that money at the cost of the customer.
  - joemi 10y ago
    > Promoting has nothing to do with how well supported the app is. I think it could, to a certain extent. If someone stops supporting an app, I think there's a decent chance they wouldn't both paying money to promote it. At least for the kind of throw-away crap apps that are out there.
ivv 10y ago
That's how supermarkets work, too. They get a cut of the sales price, and if you want your product to stand out, you pay for a more prominent placement.
- erikpukinskis 10y ago
  Supermarkets are probably one of the least usable markets in existence though. It's almost impossible to go into a supermarket without an understanding of what you need and leave better off. You have to go in with expert knowledge of everything you need. Hardly a role model for marketplace design.
  - ivv 10y ago
    What would be an example of a more usable market that doesn't require some level of domain expertise?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - erikpukinskis 10y ago
      A bike shop.
- the_common_man 10y ago
  Well, exactly. That is what is terrible about this. The goal of App Store must be to help the user find the best product that is suited based on the search. It's purpose must be to delight it's users. The users and app authors are already paying Apple in many ways. So instead of seeing this an algorithm/engineering problem, Apple has now turned it's Store into some super market. The goal of a supermarket is hardly to "delight" you. And neither do they have your best interests in mind. When/what is last delightful supermarket you went to?
HSO 10y ago
> The whole point of the App Store is to help in discovery and I already pay a 30% cut for my app. Actually, the point of the app store was distribution. That's what the 30% cut was for IIRC. And that's how they sold it, by comparing it to the 50% and more cut that older, traditional channels took at the time of introduction. I don't think they ever even thought about discovery, which would explain why the app store has become such a mess in the first place! > And now they want to charge me for promoting my app in their store. This should just be a built-in part of the App Store story for the customers. This is why Apple customers pay a premium. Instead Apple sees an opportunity here to make even more money off me / the app authors? I don't think making money is the main consideration for Apple here. Advertising can also play a useful role as a market mechanism (keyword: "price discovery"). For example, if you spend money to promote your app, you signal confidence in its value proposition. Also, you might be more selective in your targeting. Etc. So the money itself is almost incidental, what we really want here is the information aggregation and surfacing function of a competitive market, the most efficient matching of offers (app makers) and bidders (app users) across an extremely heterogeneous collection of agents. But it needs to be set up correctly (this is what all the mechanism design literature is all about). Hopefully it is, but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.
- the_common_man 10y ago
  From https://developer.apple.com/app-store/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/ "The App Store makes it simple for users around the world to discover, download and enjoy your apps. " Discovery is very much part of the deal.
- georgeecollins 10y ago
  What distributor of software ever charged 50%? Retailers of CD-ROM games (when they were a thing) and video games do not charge that kind of markup. You are crazy if you think this is a way for Apple to do anything other than capture some of the existing market of app ads, which has been incredibly lucrative for Facebook. They have so many ways to get more information about how useful an app is likely to be for you that they don't use, they don't need another signal.
supercoder 10y ago
The whole point is not discovery. It's distribution. If you take away the app store, there's nothing to download. Search ads give companies a legitimate way to promote apps within the app store, outside of editorial or bad tactics to game search results (title keyword stuffing, keyword highjacking etc). The App Store is where the customers are, so it makes sense to allow advertising here. Otherwise the alternative Google or Facebook where you're changes of conversion are such a great deal less because you're so far removed from the channel. It's like the difference between being offered fries at the fast food counter compared to a banner ad. It's clear it's going to be better for all involved to be offered something in the better context.
- aikah 10y ago
  > The App Store is where the customers are iOS customers don't have the choice but to go get their apps on the appstore. Saying that is redundant.
awesomerobot 10y ago
Pretty sure it isn't just about discovery considering you couldn't have an app on an iPhone without Apple. This is just an inevitability of a walled ecosystem.
WesleyJohnson 10y ago
> First, they charge developers to even develop for their platform (though this has become free off late). How has it become free? Honest question, as I'm not sure what you're referring to.
- the_common_man 10y ago
  I meant the 99usd fee really per annum. It's only free if you are not publishing on the store. AFAIK, this was not free previously.
  - madeofpalk 10y ago
    It was always free to develop. You needed an paid developer account in order to sign apps to adhoc install it on your phone to test it. This is now free. Still need a paid developer account in order to publish to the App Store.

brian-armstrong 10y ago

Also, I think it's worth combining this news with the fact that they restricted the length of app titles in order to combat app store seo. Why not just fix search in the first place? This definitely feels like an engineering shortcoming on Apple's behalf.

Kronopath 10y ago

People are already paying to promote apps though. I've heard of plenty of app developers paying for huge numbers of app installs in bulk in order to get them to the App Store's top downloaded lists. This is Apple trying to capture some of that market and bring it away from these kinds of shady practices.

the_common_man 10y ago
Yes, so let it be free of charge. Why is there any cost involved here for the app developer?
- ljk 10y ago
  Probably because Apple can..
- joemi 10y ago
  If it were free, wouldn't everyone do it, thereby negating any benefit?
- zbuttram 10y ago
  So instead of ads you want a system where random relevant apps are floated to the top of searches? How is that helpful for anyone? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like Apple is only doing what every other search system with embedded ads at the top does.
  - the_common_man 10y ago
    So you are saying Google search is useful only because of ads?
    - notatoad 10y ago
      for many search terms, and in my opinion, yes. a typical use case on an app store is searching for something like the example given on apple's promo page here: "photo filters". neither the app store or google has enough intelligence to make a decision about what the best result is, given a query that vague and returning that many results. the most useful thing they can actually display is likely an ad. try searching for something like "car insurance" on google with adblock turned off - the majority of the visible page area will be used by some sort of ad unit, and the native results are pretty useless.

eridius 10y ago

It is a built-in part of the App Store. But the app store is so crowded that once you fall off the front page, there's not much you can do within the store (besides hope that Apple decides to feature you after some big update). The reason why search ads are actually good for customers is because it promotes apps that are backed by companies that a) still care about their app, and b) can afford to actually promote the app. This means the app is much more likely to be under active development and to be usable in the future. And surely any company that's interested in search ads is already purchasing ads on web search engines and whatnot, so it really shouldn't be a big deal.

the_common_man 10y ago
This is poor logic. Promoting has nothing to do with how well supported the app is. All we will see is people with money push their apps and trying to make up for that money at the cost of the customer.
- joemi 10y ago
  > Promoting has nothing to do with how well supported the app is. I think it could, to a certain extent. If someone stops supporting an app, I think there's a decent chance they wouldn't both paying money to promote it. At least for the kind of throw-away crap apps that are out there.

ivv 10y ago

That's how supermarkets work, too. They get a cut of the sales price, and if you want your product to stand out, you pay for a more prominent placement.

erikpukinskis 10y ago
Supermarkets are probably one of the least usable markets in existence though. It's almost impossible to go into a supermarket without an understanding of what you need and leave better off. You have to go in with expert knowledge of everything you need. Hardly a role model for marketplace design.
- ivv 10y ago
  What would be an example of a more usable market that doesn't require some level of domain expertise?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - erikpukinskis 10y ago
    A bike shop.
the_common_man 10y ago
Well, exactly. That is what is terrible about this. The goal of App Store must be to help the user find the best product that is suited based on the search. It's purpose must be to delight it's users. The users and app authors are already paying Apple in many ways. So instead of seeing this an algorithm/engineering problem, Apple has now turned it's Store into some super market. The goal of a supermarket is hardly to "delight" you. And neither do they have your best interests in mind. When/what is last delightful supermarket you went to?

HSO 10y ago

> The whole point of the App Store is to help in discovery and I already pay a 30% cut for my app. Actually, the point of the app store was distribution. That's what the 30% cut was for IIRC. And that's how they sold it, by comparing it to the 50% and more cut that older, traditional channels took at the time of introduction. I don't think they ever even thought about discovery, which would explain why the app store has become such a mess in the first place! > And now they want to charge me for promoting my app in their store. This should just be a built-in part of the App Store story for the customers. This is why Apple customers pay a premium. Instead Apple sees an opportunity here to make even more money off me / the app authors? I don't think making money is the main consideration for Apple here. Advertising can also play a useful role as a market mechanism (keyword: "price discovery"). For example, if you spend money to promote your app, you signal confidence in its value proposition. Also, you might be more selective in your targeting. Etc. So the money itself is almost incidental, what we really want here is the information aggregation and surfacing function of a competitive market, the most efficient matching of offers (app makers) and bidders (app users) across an extremely heterogeneous collection of agents. But it needs to be set up correctly (this is what all the mechanism design literature is all about). Hopefully it is, but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

the_common_man 10y ago
From https://developer.apple.com/app-store/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/ "The App Store makes it simple for users around the world to discover, download and enjoy your apps. " Discovery is very much part of the deal.
georgeecollins 10y ago
What distributor of software ever charged 50%? Retailers of CD-ROM games (when they were a thing) and video games do not charge that kind of markup. You are crazy if you think this is a way for Apple to do anything other than capture some of the existing market of app ads, which has been incredibly lucrative for Facebook. They have so many ways to get more information about how useful an app is likely to be for you that they don't use, they don't need another signal.

supercoder 10y ago

The whole point is not discovery. It's distribution. If you take away the app store, there's nothing to download. Search ads give companies a legitimate way to promote apps within the app store, outside of editorial or bad tactics to game search results (title keyword stuffing, keyword highjacking etc). The App Store is where the customers are, so it makes sense to allow advertising here. Otherwise the alternative Google or Facebook where you're changes of conversion are such a great deal less because you're so far removed from the channel. It's like the difference between being offered fries at the fast food counter compared to a banner ad. It's clear it's going to be better for all involved to be offered something in the better context.

aikah 10y ago
> The App Store is where the customers are iOS customers don't have the choice but to go get their apps on the appstore. Saying that is redundant.

awesomerobot 10y ago

Pretty sure it isn't just about discovery considering you couldn't have an app on an iPhone without Apple. This is just an inevitability of a walled ecosystem.

WesleyJohnson 10y ago

> First, they charge developers to even develop for their platform (though this has become free off late). How has it become free? Honest question, as I'm not sure what you're referring to.

the_common_man 10y ago
I meant the 99usd fee really per annum. It's only free if you are not publishing on the store. AFAIK, this was not free previously.
- madeofpalk 10y ago
  It was always free to develop. You needed an paid developer account in order to sign apps to adhoc install it on your phone to test it. This is now free. Still need a paid developer account in order to publish to the App Store.