19 ms·

Honestly, even as I'm getting older, this isn't at all obvious to me. Someone with five years solid experience with web development might very well be far more

by uola 10y ago

Honestly, even as I'm getting older, this isn't at all obvious to me. Someone with five years solid experience with web development might very well be far more effective than someone with twenty years experience of working in corners of large companies with various technologies, especially when you consider the expected salary. I think it good that people are talking about these things, but sometime it seem like people think it's a big conspiracy, rather than a factor of how the ecosystem and market looks.

dfsegoat 10y ago
I am with you on this - it is what causes me a lot of anxiety but what also drives me to at least know about "all the shiney things" that the new breed of engineers basically come equipped with standard.
curun1r 10y ago
I came to this realization a few years ago. I found that while my judgment was still improving, my output wasn't and my ability to think through problems wasn't where it used to be, especially when it came to the tiny details. So I moved into management. It allowed me leverage my strengths while putting me in a situation where my value wasn't determined by my raw output. It sucks going to all those meetings, but it honestly made me enjoy the programming I did do considerably more than I did before. The programming I did do for the team was all prototype work with new technologies that either I or the team felt could help us out...short 2-3 hour projects whenever I could fit them into my schedule. But everything was new and I wasn't implementing things I'd done a ton of times before. In the end, I don't think this is a satisfying answer. There just aren't enough managerial jobs for all the old programmers and a lot of them can't handle the meeting workload of that kind of position. But I still suggest it on an individual basis because it's a chance to put all that experience to work programming at a higher level. Instead of linked lists you're dealing with fresh-out-of-college devs who know their big-Os by heart and can crank out code at a frightening pace. But you still need someone to ensure the overall design doesn't suck. To read over what they're producing since there will always be some crazy mis-step that they make from time to time. You still need someone who has seen a project evolve over multiple years to know which decisions will become problematic down the road. The young guys can't do that. And while it's been an adjustment to learn to find satisfaction without typing out the code myself, I've learned to enjoy the launches (both product and career) in a way that's more fulfilling than my time as a full-time coder was.
- ianai 10y ago
  What's your answer for the general? Not that you know but areas you suspect.
- jimbokun 10y ago
  How does a programmer go about moving into management?
  - curun1r 10y ago
    Ask. I had a conversation with the VP of Eng where I told him that's what I wanted, asked if it was a possibility and what I needed to do to make it happen. He told me what he thought I needed to learn and allowed me to take a couple of hours each week to read, meet with other managers and otherwise prepare. A few months later, when a position became open, he gave me a trial run which converted to perm after a successful month. Most engineering leadership is very reasonable with requests like this provided you are a very strong performer with the respect of the engineering organization. They realize that promotions from within are morale boosters and developing a reputation for nurturing talent is an amazing recruiting tool.
czep 10y ago
If you were having cardiac surgery, would you prefer your surgeon to be a year out of med school having done the operation oh 3 or 4 times, or the proverbial graybeard who has done it a thousand times? If you were wrongly convicted and awaiting a death sentence, would you pick a 22 year old attorney fresh from law school to defend you? If you have a field full of tomatoes that needs picking, do you save a few dollars an hour hiring the young guy at minimum wage who is healthy, has no family, and will easily work beyond maximum hours without reporting it, or do you hire the older tomato picker who needs a higher salary because of his kids and can't work more than 7.5 hours a day because of his bad back? So are we law and medicine or are we tomato pickers? I had always thought of engineering as the former but sadly the more articles I see on how "culture fit" discrimination works, maybe we've commoditized the industry into a low wage manual labor job.
- witty_username 10y ago
  > If you were having cardiac surgery, would you prefer your surgeon to be a year out of med school having done the operation oh 3 or 4 times, or the proverbial graybeard who has done it a thousand times? Rationally one would care about the outcomes, and the number of times would merely make us more certain about the outcome. Relative to the two scenarios you showed, programming is usually more like tomato picking—nobody is going to die or be injured because of a bug or failure to deliver something.
  - sharemywin 10y ago
    self driving cars.
  - ojbyrne 10y ago
    Perhaps most of the time that's true, I suspect that a lot of health care is the same. There have been plenty of instances of software bugs killing or injuring people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs
  - pmoriarty 10y ago
    "nobody is going to die or be injured because of a bug or failure to deliver something" You should read through RISKS Digest.[1] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risks_digest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risks_digest
sharemywin 10y ago
I think "older" programmers are more likely to stick around longer. If your looking for someone to fill space so you can brag about the hours your team is putting in and party with while you blow threw a few more of some investors millions go with the young guy. Since, the companies' going to blow up in six month anyway why worry about how long they stay in a job.
- cableshaft 10y ago
  Honestly I think that might be in the back of these people's heads a bit. "Woo! We're doing what we want, when we want, how we want, this is how work should be! What, you think it would be better if we did things this way because reasons and experience? No, this is how I always wanted to work, fast and loose, I'm the one with the CEO title so this is what we'll do! 6 months later I'm so sorry guys. I have to let you all go, then come up with another idea I can get investors to pump money into so I can hop on this ride all over again and learn absolutely nothing. This isn't true of all startups, but I've seen elements of it at several of the ones I have experience with.
amyjess 10y ago
This is one thing that really worries me. I'm in my early 30s, and I'm perfectly content working a mid-level position. I've seen people my age pass me by several times, and I'm fine with that. I'm not good enough to keep up with the really good engineers, and it's probably going to be a long time before I have 'Senior' in my title, if ever. When I'm in my 50s, I'm just not going to be one of those awesome elder coders. My boss is one of those graybeards, and he's awesome, but I'll never be him. I also have less than zero desire to ever work in management (and even if I wanted to do that, I don't have the people skills for it). So I'm seriously worried that I'm going to be unemployable in 10-20 years because companies will all prefer to hire people in their 20s with equivalent skills to mine out of ageism.
- atoko 10y ago
  If you haven't adapted in 20 years, is it really ageism?
- verbify 10y ago
  In twenty years you'll be in your 70's. Most people in their 70's are unemployable, no matter the field. If you don't have a retirement plan, then you got to do some extreme saving and lifestyle adjustment (or you'll face even more extreme lifestyle adjustment once you retire). If you do have a retirement plan, you have nothing to worry about.
  - citizenkeen 10y ago
    No, they're in their 30s. They're concerned about their 50s.
    - verbify 10y ago
      Whoops, badly misread that.

by uola 10y ago

dfsegoat 10y ago

I am with you on this - it is what causes me a lot of anxiety but what also drives me to at least know about "all the shiney things" that the new breed of engineers basically come equipped with standard.

curun1r 10y ago

I came to this realization a few years ago. I found that while my judgment was still improving, my output wasn't and my ability to think through problems wasn't where it used to be, especially when it came to the tiny details. So I moved into management. It allowed me leverage my strengths while putting me in a situation where my value wasn't determined by my raw output. It sucks going to all those meetings, but it honestly made me enjoy the programming I did do considerably more than I did before. The programming I did do for the team was all prototype work with new technologies that either I or the team felt could help us out...short 2-3 hour projects whenever I could fit them into my schedule. But everything was new and I wasn't implementing things I'd done a ton of times before. In the end, I don't think this is a satisfying answer. There just aren't enough managerial jobs for all the old programmers and a lot of them can't handle the meeting workload of that kind of position. But I still suggest it on an individual basis because it's a chance to put all that experience to work programming at a higher level. Instead of linked lists you're dealing with fresh-out-of-college devs who know their big-Os by heart and can crank out code at a frightening pace. But you still need someone to ensure the overall design doesn't suck. To read over what they're producing since there will always be some crazy mis-step that they make from time to time. You still need someone who has seen a project evolve over multiple years to know which decisions will become problematic down the road. The young guys can't do that. And while it's been an adjustment to learn to find satisfaction without typing out the code myself, I've learned to enjoy the launches (both product and career) in a way that's more fulfilling than my time as a full-time coder was.

ianai 10y ago
What's your answer for the general? Not that you know but areas you suspect.
jimbokun 10y ago
How does a programmer go about moving into management?
- curun1r 10y ago
  Ask. I had a conversation with the VP of Eng where I told him that's what I wanted, asked if it was a possibility and what I needed to do to make it happen. He told me what he thought I needed to learn and allowed me to take a couple of hours each week to read, meet with other managers and otherwise prepare. A few months later, when a position became open, he gave me a trial run which converted to perm after a successful month. Most engineering leadership is very reasonable with requests like this provided you are a very strong performer with the respect of the engineering organization. They realize that promotions from within are morale boosters and developing a reputation for nurturing talent is an amazing recruiting tool.

czep 10y ago

If you were having cardiac surgery, would you prefer your surgeon to be a year out of med school having done the operation oh 3 or 4 times, or the proverbial graybeard who has done it a thousand times? If you were wrongly convicted and awaiting a death sentence, would you pick a 22 year old attorney fresh from law school to defend you? If you have a field full of tomatoes that needs picking, do you save a few dollars an hour hiring the young guy at minimum wage who is healthy, has no family, and will easily work beyond maximum hours without reporting it, or do you hire the older tomato picker who needs a higher salary because of his kids and can't work more than 7.5 hours a day because of his bad back? So are we law and medicine or are we tomato pickers? I had always thought of engineering as the former but sadly the more articles I see on how "culture fit" discrimination works, maybe we've commoditized the industry into a low wage manual labor job.

witty_username 10y ago
> If you were having cardiac surgery, would you prefer your surgeon to be a year out of med school having done the operation oh 3 or 4 times, or the proverbial graybeard who has done it a thousand times? Rationally one would care about the outcomes, and the number of times would merely make us more certain about the outcome. Relative to the two scenarios you showed, programming is usually more like tomato picking—nobody is going to die or be injured because of a bug or failure to deliver something.
- sharemywin 10y ago
  self driving cars.
- ojbyrne 10y ago
  Perhaps most of the time that's true, I suspect that a lot of health care is the same. There have been plenty of instances of software bugs killing or injuring people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  "nobody is going to die or be injured because of a bug or failure to deliver something" You should read through RISKS Digest.[1] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risks_digest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risks_digest

sharemywin 10y ago

I think "older" programmers are more likely to stick around longer. If your looking for someone to fill space so you can brag about the hours your team is putting in and party with while you blow threw a few more of some investors millions go with the young guy. Since, the companies' going to blow up in six month anyway why worry about how long they stay in a job.

cableshaft 10y ago
Honestly I think that might be in the back of these people's heads a bit. "Woo! We're doing what we want, when we want, how we want, this is how work should be! What, you think it would be better if we did things this way because reasons and experience? No, this is how I always wanted to work, fast and loose, I'm the one with the CEO title so this is what we'll do! 6 months later I'm so sorry guys. I have to let you all go, then come up with another idea I can get investors to pump money into so I can hop on this ride all over again and learn absolutely nothing. This isn't true of all startups, but I've seen elements of it at several of the ones I have experience with.

amyjess 10y ago

This is one thing that really worries me. I'm in my early 30s, and I'm perfectly content working a mid-level position. I've seen people my age pass me by several times, and I'm fine with that. I'm not good enough to keep up with the really good engineers, and it's probably going to be a long time before I have 'Senior' in my title, if ever. When I'm in my 50s, I'm just not going to be one of those awesome elder coders. My boss is one of those graybeards, and he's awesome, but I'll never be him. I also have less than zero desire to ever work in management (and even if I wanted to do that, I don't have the people skills for it). So I'm seriously worried that I'm going to be unemployable in 10-20 years because companies will all prefer to hire people in their 20s with equivalent skills to mine out of ageism.

atoko 10y ago
If you haven't adapted in 20 years, is it really ageism?
verbify 10y ago
In twenty years you'll be in your 70's. Most people in their 70's are unemployable, no matter the field. If you don't have a retirement plan, then you got to do some extreme saving and lifestyle adjustment (or you'll face even more extreme lifestyle adjustment once you retire). If you do have a retirement plan, you have nothing to worry about.
- citizenkeen 10y ago
  No, they're in their 30s. They're concerned about their 50s.
  - verbify 10y ago
    Whoops, badly misread that.