10 ms·

You're my hero! This attitude is why I quit regularly contributing to this site. Any time any single person does something positive, some armchair "expert" come

You're my hero! This attitude is why I quit regularly contributing to this site. Any time any single person does something positive, some armchair "expert" comes out the woodworks to tell you how it won't work or can't work.

fapjacks 10y ago
It's especially exaggerated here -- almost comically so -- when the subject is JavaScript or when something isn't quite right with a project's website.
- wmccullough 10y ago
  Yes, or the ever popular: "This is nice, but my cousins, uncles, framework that's coming out next week is way better!"
- nk1tz 10y ago
  Developers are a cynical bunch. It comes with the chops.
  - cfreeman 10y ago
    I think it just comes with the type of person who fits the programmer stereotype. I don't think being cynical makes one a better programmer.
    - goatlover 10y ago
      Being cynical comes with experience. You get exposed to tons of ideas and hype over time. Some of it is warranted, and some of it isn't. You realize that marketing and lowest common denominator play a big role.
    - jdavis703 10y ago
      Well I think it depends on what kind of code you work (or worked) on. My first two jobs were on decade-old PHP codebases with thousands of global variables and copy pasta galore. Only the damn cynical can survive in that kind of mess, because it literally feels like the system is trying to fight you. I imagine legacy COBOL programmers can also relate. Now if most of your experience is working with green field systems, such a level of cynicism is not needed and may even be detrimental.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
elliotec 10y ago
Don't stop contributing if you're one of the good ones!
- wmccullough 10y ago
  I want to, but it got to the point where the hivemind has pushed me away. I have noticed recently that HN is becoming self-aware. More than ever, I'm seeing comments by good users telling the bad ones to take their bad attitude elsewhere. The contrarianism going on really drove me away. I started to believe that there were people feeling the need to be contrarian just to appear more intelligent than the other users.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    If you see a hive mind on HN that says more about your thought process than this site.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Guys, chill out. To quote from Elon's Q&A, "space questions only".
    - ghurtado 10y ago
      I hope one day you can see the irony of your comment.
      - oldmanjay 10y ago
        Feel free to explain it to me, as I consider people to be individual actors who are not subject to mental control
  - sillysaurus3 10y ago
    It's a mistake to anthropomorphise HN. I've made it too. We're all in this together, and we're all individuals. True, people here can be frustrating at times. But the mod team is one of the sharpest, and they cull abuse. And they do it well. When the abuse is removed, what's left is substance. Sometimes that substance is disagreeable, and sometimes even hostile, but never personal. It can be un-fun sometimes. But it's been rewarding to watch this place grow and see all of the new and old opinions intermix. Sometimes you end up learning about yourself more than other people, which are special moments. I haven't really felt that on other sites, so HN feels unique and worthwhile. It's a journey. The community has ups and downs, but Dan (and now Scott) have always taken care of it.
benevol 10y ago
I would never say "it won't work", but I do think we humans have a tendency to turn to technology to solve our most basic problems, while the real solutions lie within us (where most people never look). I believe we should first learn to clean up our act on planet Earth before we export anything of our existence and what we do. To me, the real revolution that needs to happen is a spiritual one - a statement that will only be understood by those practicing meditation. Our brain has so many "undiscovered" capabilities. Discovering them will change our behavior and ultimately allow us to survive on Earth.
- Osiris 10y ago
  It's weird for people to suggest that "we" as a human race should/can only focus on one goal at a time. There are enough humans on the planet that different people can focus on different goals at the same time. It's not like Elon Musk building this rocket is at the expense of SolarCity (improving the environment through solar energy).
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  The more I look around, the more I'm opposed to that concept. Sure, I've seen humans change - but only under heavy "brainwashing", i.e. internalizing an ideology that values being fair, helpful and truthful, and that only holds with a support structure of adherents. And I doubt it scales. If you look at the world, a lot if not most changes for the better are technology-driven. Technology alters the economical landscape, which makes people do things better, even though they're still following the same behaviours as they always did. TL;DR: I think individuals have much less agency than we'd like to think.
- hvmonk 10y ago
  +1. Very correct view, but just a wrong thread/forum. Don't worry about the down votes.
- kolinko 10y ago
  Meditation can go hand in hand with space exploration. Besides that, Musk is doing two things at the same time. He tries both to protect the earth (Tesla, solar power), and initiate a base in case something happened to our home. Spirituality alone won't help you survive winter, regardless of how developed your mind is.
Florin_Andrei 10y ago
> Any time any single person does something positive, some armchair "expert" comes out the woodworks to tell you how it won't work or can't work. All public forums go bad once they reach a certain size. Since everything is on a gaussian curve (fat mediocre middle, and two asymptotes, one for greatness, the other for the opposite end), it's just pure statistics that junk comments will start creeping in once the population grows beyond a certain threshold.
- Klathmon 10y ago
  In some ways HN is designed to combat this. You need to "earn" downvotes with contributions, and the sites UX is designed in a way to slow down low effort comments, and to make comments sit for a bit before allowing replies (with workarounds if needed). The things that aren't features (like the lack of notifications) also help.
  - Grishnakh 10y ago
    >In some ways HN is designed to combat this. Yeah, those things are an example of something that sounds great in theory, but doesn't work out in practice.
    - eloisius 10y ago
      I wonder if recent UI enhancements really improve the discussion, or if they are just indicators that we've reached that critical threshold. I don't remember wanting for collapsable threads and such four or five years ago, but now I can't imagine sifting through all the junk without them.
      - Klathmon 10y ago
        Personally I really like that change because it helps keep one thread from derailing a whole submission. But I also feel like my karma goes up faster now too, but that could just be in my head.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mrfusion 10y ago
Yeah check out today's electric airplane thread for another example. Apparently the concept is impossible.
ryandrake 10y ago
When a discussion forum discourages skepticism and criticism, you tend to end up in an uninteresting "That's awesome, bro!" echo chamber. There's a big difference between trolling / negativity and battle-hardened cynicism / constructive criticism. Good mods help sort it out.
TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
What would you prefer? Rolling applause for every idea anyone presents? One benefit of criticism is we might get to read an angle of attack we hadn't thought of and thereby improve our ideas and designs. Sure, when people blow off an idea by saying "pointless, let's save the baby dolphins first" I don't find those comments helpful, but HN almost always has far more in-depth critiques. Edit: fixed a word
- ekianjo 10y ago
  Exactly. HN is not a fanboy driven community usually, so it's where rational and educated conversation can take place. On the contrary I find criticism helpful in this kind of context.
  - jdavis703 10y ago
    As engineers (or hackers, whatever) we are supposed to be naturally skeptical, in the words of someone wiser than me, "good programmers look both ways when crossing a one way street."
    - philippoi 10y ago
      Biking in New York City taught me that. I know it wasn't the programming, because that came second. Funny how many pedestrians look the wrong way when crossing a two way street...maybe they're going with 50/50 chances?
      - Jakawao 10y ago
        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WfUnwynwZvE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WfUnwynwZvE
    - salamisultan 10y ago
      U have to. U never know when some dumb nigger is gonna go the wrong way and commit to their mistake. Fuck Kareem
  - 10y ago
signa11 10y ago
> some armchair "expert" comes out the woodworks to tell you how it won't work or can't work. “Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it.” - robert-a-heinlein
popmystack 10y ago
Because it's no longer filled with hackers.
grandalf 10y ago
While this does happen, I think it's because some on HN enjoy spirited argument and aren't intending to hurt anyone's feelings, just issue a worthy challenge.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
planetjones 10y ago
It's these armchair "experts" which make hacker news interesting. It's certainly preferable to Youtube +1s or emoticons to say how wonderful someone's comment is. The root comment is fine and makes a good point about how most billionaires outsource jobs and don't think big like Musk does, but this reply I am not so sure about.
the_gipsy 10y ago
That's just part of the hard work of producing something and distributing it. You have to overcome criticism. Both armchair experts and real experts will shit all over what you do for different reasons. It's a necessary evil, you have to pick out the good feedback and ignore the bad.

fapjacks 10y ago

It's especially exaggerated here -- almost comically so -- when the subject is JavaScript or when something isn't quite right with a project's website.

wmccullough 10y ago
Yes, or the ever popular: "This is nice, but my cousins, uncles, framework that's coming out next week is way better!"
nk1tz 10y ago
Developers are a cynical bunch. It comes with the chops.
- cfreeman 10y ago
  I think it just comes with the type of person who fits the programmer stereotype. I don't think being cynical makes one a better programmer.
  - goatlover 10y ago
    Being cynical comes with experience. You get exposed to tons of ideas and hype over time. Some of it is warranted, and some of it isn't. You realize that marketing and lowest common denominator play a big role.
  - jdavis703 10y ago
    Well I think it depends on what kind of code you work (or worked) on. My first two jobs were on decade-old PHP codebases with thousands of global variables and copy pasta galore. Only the damn cynical can survive in that kind of mess, because it literally feels like the system is trying to fight you. I imagine legacy COBOL programmers can also relate. Now if most of your experience is working with green field systems, such a level of cynicism is not needed and may even be detrimental.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

elliotec 10y ago

Don't stop contributing if you're one of the good ones!

wmccullough 10y ago
I want to, but it got to the point where the hivemind has pushed me away. I have noticed recently that HN is becoming self-aware. More than ever, I'm seeing comments by good users telling the bad ones to take their bad attitude elsewhere. The contrarianism going on really drove me away. I started to believe that there were people feeling the need to be contrarian just to appear more intelligent than the other users.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  If you see a hive mind on HN that says more about your thought process than this site.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Guys, chill out. To quote from Elon's Q&A, "space questions only".
  - ghurtado 10y ago
    I hope one day you can see the irony of your comment.
    - oldmanjay 10y ago
      Feel free to explain it to me, as I consider people to be individual actors who are not subject to mental control
- sillysaurus3 10y ago
  It's a mistake to anthropomorphise HN. I've made it too. We're all in this together, and we're all individuals. True, people here can be frustrating at times. But the mod team is one of the sharpest, and they cull abuse. And they do it well. When the abuse is removed, what's left is substance. Sometimes that substance is disagreeable, and sometimes even hostile, but never personal. It can be un-fun sometimes. But it's been rewarding to watch this place grow and see all of the new and old opinions intermix. Sometimes you end up learning about yourself more than other people, which are special moments. I haven't really felt that on other sites, so HN feels unique and worthwhile. It's a journey. The community has ups and downs, but Dan (and now Scott) have always taken care of it.

benevol 10y ago

I would never say "it won't work", but I do think we humans have a tendency to turn to technology to solve our most basic problems, while the real solutions lie within us (where most people never look). I believe we should first learn to clean up our act on planet Earth before we export anything of our existence and what we do. To me, the real revolution that needs to happen is a spiritual one - a statement that will only be understood by those practicing meditation. Our brain has so many "undiscovered" capabilities. Discovering them will change our behavior and ultimately allow us to survive on Earth.

Osiris 10y ago
It's weird for people to suggest that "we" as a human race should/can only focus on one goal at a time. There are enough humans on the planet that different people can focus on different goals at the same time. It's not like Elon Musk building this rocket is at the expense of SolarCity (improving the environment through solar energy).
TeMPOraL 10y ago
The more I look around, the more I'm opposed to that concept. Sure, I've seen humans change - but only under heavy "brainwashing", i.e. internalizing an ideology that values being fair, helpful and truthful, and that only holds with a support structure of adherents. And I doubt it scales. If you look at the world, a lot if not most changes for the better are technology-driven. Technology alters the economical landscape, which makes people do things better, even though they're still following the same behaviours as they always did. TL;DR: I think individuals have much less agency than we'd like to think.
hvmonk 10y ago
+1. Very correct view, but just a wrong thread/forum. Don't worry about the down votes.
kolinko 10y ago
Meditation can go hand in hand with space exploration. Besides that, Musk is doing two things at the same time. He tries both to protect the earth (Tesla, solar power), and initiate a base in case something happened to our home. Spirituality alone won't help you survive winter, regardless of how developed your mind is.

Florin_Andrei 10y ago

> Any time any single person does something positive, some armchair "expert" comes out the woodworks to tell you how it won't work or can't work. All public forums go bad once they reach a certain size. Since everything is on a gaussian curve (fat mediocre middle, and two asymptotes, one for greatness, the other for the opposite end), it's just pure statistics that junk comments will start creeping in once the population grows beyond a certain threshold.

Klathmon 10y ago
In some ways HN is designed to combat this. You need to "earn" downvotes with contributions, and the sites UX is designed in a way to slow down low effort comments, and to make comments sit for a bit before allowing replies (with workarounds if needed). The things that aren't features (like the lack of notifications) also help.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  >In some ways HN is designed to combat this. Yeah, those things are an example of something that sounds great in theory, but doesn't work out in practice.
  - eloisius 10y ago
    I wonder if recent UI enhancements really improve the discussion, or if they are just indicators that we've reached that critical threshold. I don't remember wanting for collapsable threads and such four or five years ago, but now I can't imagine sifting through all the junk without them.
    - Klathmon 10y ago
      Personally I really like that change because it helps keep one thread from derailing a whole submission. But I also feel like my karma goes up faster now too, but that could just be in my head.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

mrfusion 10y ago

Yeah check out today's electric airplane thread for another example. Apparently the concept is impossible.

ryandrake 10y ago

When a discussion forum discourages skepticism and criticism, you tend to end up in an uninteresting "That's awesome, bro!" echo chamber. There's a big difference between trolling / negativity and battle-hardened cynicism / constructive criticism. Good mods help sort it out.

TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago

What would you prefer? Rolling applause for every idea anyone presents? One benefit of criticism is we might get to read an angle of attack we hadn't thought of and thereby improve our ideas and designs. Sure, when people blow off an idea by saying "pointless, let's save the baby dolphins first" I don't find those comments helpful, but HN almost always has far more in-depth critiques. Edit: fixed a word

ekianjo 10y ago
Exactly. HN is not a fanboy driven community usually, so it's where rational and educated conversation can take place. On the contrary I find criticism helpful in this kind of context.
- jdavis703 10y ago
  As engineers (or hackers, whatever) we are supposed to be naturally skeptical, in the words of someone wiser than me, "good programmers look both ways when crossing a one way street."
  - philippoi 10y ago
    Biking in New York City taught me that. I know it wasn't the programming, because that came second. Funny how many pedestrians look the wrong way when crossing a two way street...maybe they're going with 50/50 chances?
    - Jakawao 10y ago
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WfUnwynwZvE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WfUnwynwZvE
  - salamisultan 10y ago
    U have to. U never know when some dumb nigger is gonna go the wrong way and commit to their mistake. Fuck Kareem
- 10y ago

signa11 10y ago

> some armchair "expert" comes out the woodworks to tell you how it won't work or can't work. “Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it.” - robert-a-heinlein

popmystack 10y ago

Because it's no longer filled with hackers.

grandalf 10y ago

While this does happen, I think it's because some on HN enjoy spirited argument and aren't intending to hurt anyone's feelings, just issue a worthy challenge.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

planetjones 10y ago

It's these armchair "experts" which make hacker news interesting. It's certainly preferable to Youtube +1s or emoticons to say how wonderful someone's comment is. The root comment is fine and makes a good point about how most billionaires outsource jobs and don't think big like Musk does, but this reply I am not so sure about.

the_gipsy 10y ago

That's just part of the hard work of producing something and distributing it. You have to overcome criticism. Both armchair experts and real experts will shit all over what you do for different reasons. It's a necessary evil, you have to pick out the good feedback and ignore the bad.