5 ms·

Sometimes I wonder if the strategy of announcing "due to the anti commercial data privacy demands in Germany we are forced to suspend all German WA accounts for

by kriro 10y ago

Sometimes I wonder if the strategy of announcing "due to the anti commercial data privacy demands in Germany we are forced to suspend all German WA accounts for the next couple of days" is ever discussed at Facebook. I'd be interested to see the political pressure it would create. I think the network is strong enough that people won't switch to other apps instantly and there would be a pretty big "just gimme back my WA" outcry which politicians would probably need to respond to. Obviously the Datenschutzbeauftragte are theoretically independent but I'm sure they'd feel the heat. At least I'd be interested in seeing this play out if a law is being discussed. It won't ever happen but I have a feeling people would want WA enough that it could theoretically be used as a strategy.

retox 10y ago
My understanding is that the German people generally are very wary of data being moved around and collected 'unnecessarily'. I think a ploy like this would only backfire on FB.
- kaybe 10y ago
  I already see non-technical people switching; it would backfire massively since now the rest will overcome their inertia too.
- veddox 10y ago
  Yes, I'd second that. While there would no doubt be some sort of outrage from the users, I don't think it would be nearly as strong as suggested. Germans in general, and especially the more educated, tend to be very protective of their data protection rights. If FB attempted something like this, it would be torn to shreds by German media.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > Germans in general, and especially the more educated, tend to be very protective of their data protection rights. Indeed being German I can say this is true for Germany because of the experiences with two dictatorships on German ground in the 20th century - the last one ending only about 26 years ago. Many people living in the GDR that were under supervision by the Stasi (often without knowing) have read the Stasi file (if it exists) and know what details have been recorded about their lifes and what kind of kompromat could in principle be derived from it.
- briandear 10y ago
  And oddly, Germany requires to to declare your religion to the government. So I guess the question would be: what is considered necessary? If Facebook needs data to offer a free service, that seems necessary unless Facebook employees are volunteers and servers run on kitten sneezes and rainbows.
  - veddox 10y ago
    > And oddly, Germany requires to to declare your religion to the government. I trust my government with my data (well, mostly) because if it abuses that trust, I know that I and my fellow citizens can vote it out of power. We have no such control over FB.
  - germanier 10y ago
    This is not a requirement by the government. The question is asked on behalf of the communities of faith that explicitly tasked the government with that. That is a right religious communities have guaranteed by the constitution. The government is not asking you if you are a member of a religious community that has not choosen to use that service.
  - josefx 10y ago
    Do you mean on tax forms or the declaration that you are not a member of Scientology? Afaik you can enter whatever you want on the tax form, it is just used to collect membership fees/church tax on behalf of a church. Mostly part of an old deal between the state and the catholic church. Scientology on the other hand counts more or less as an enemy of the state, stability and not something you let near children. So you need to fill out a corresponding form for specific jobs. If even half the stories of what they get up to are true that is a good thing.
GrinningFool 10y ago
I think people would switch pretty quickly. Most people will have friends locally and regionally - there will be some cut off internationally but they'd be the minority. And if everyone you know is prevented from using the same messaging service, the expedient solution is to change to a different one.
teekert 10y ago
I think also that it would backfire, if you look at what happened in Brazil [0], the blockade made Telegram very popular and again with what's happening here, they benefit [1]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10749129 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10749129 [1] https://twitter.com/telegram https://twitter.com/telegram
rmc 10y ago
Extreme non-techies will say "WhatsApp is broken, use this app instead". People who read the news will know it's about the US companies wanting to spy on your data (remember Germans don't have US 4th Amendment rights), and will switch apps.
- germanier 10y ago
  I'm not convinced German constitutional protections are weaker than the 4th Amendment. The constitution even includes a right to the guarantee of confidentiality and integrity of information technology systems as ruled by the constitutional court. https://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/SharedDocs/Entscheidungen/EN/2008/02/rs20080227_1bvr037007en.html https://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/SharedDocs/Entscheid...
  - kuschku 10y ago
    I think the argument is more that Facebook is a US company, Facebook isn’t bound by German law (unless they operate in Germany, which they do), and the 4th Amendment only applies to Americans.
    - rmc 10y ago
      > Facebook isn’t bound by German law (unless they operate in Germany, which they do) If you're not in the USA or Canada, and use Facebook, your agreement is with Facebook Ireland Ltd, and bound by Irish, and European, data protection law. A Facebook user in India has EU data protection rights.
  - rmc 10y ago
    > I'm not convinced German constitutional protections are weaker than the 4th Amendment. Here's a report from the EU commission about why the US constitutional/legal protection is much less than the EU (and hence German) equivalent: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2015/519215/IPOL_STU%282015%29519215_EN.pdf Basically: Unlike the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, US 4th Amendment doesn't cover non-US people outside the US, and it only covers government warrents. What Facebook does with your data is not covered by the 4th Amendment. What Facebook does with your data is covered by Article 8 of the EUCFR.

by kriro 10y ago

retox 10y ago

My understanding is that the German people generally are very wary of data being moved around and collected 'unnecessarily'. I think a ploy like this would only backfire on FB.

kaybe 10y ago
I already see non-technical people switching; it would backfire massively since now the rest will overcome their inertia too.
veddox 10y ago
Yes, I'd second that. While there would no doubt be some sort of outrage from the users, I don't think it would be nearly as strong as suggested. Germans in general, and especially the more educated, tend to be very protective of their data protection rights. If FB attempted something like this, it would be torn to shreds by German media.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > Germans in general, and especially the more educated, tend to be very protective of their data protection rights. Indeed being German I can say this is true for Germany because of the experiences with two dictatorships on German ground in the 20th century - the last one ending only about 26 years ago. Many people living in the GDR that were under supervision by the Stasi (often without knowing) have read the Stasi file (if it exists) and know what details have been recorded about their lifes and what kind of kompromat could in principle be derived from it.
briandear 10y ago
And oddly, Germany requires to to declare your religion to the government. So I guess the question would be: what is considered necessary? If Facebook needs data to offer a free service, that seems necessary unless Facebook employees are volunteers and servers run on kitten sneezes and rainbows.
- veddox 10y ago
  > And oddly, Germany requires to to declare your religion to the government. I trust my government with my data (well, mostly) because if it abuses that trust, I know that I and my fellow citizens can vote it out of power. We have no such control over FB.
- germanier 10y ago
  This is not a requirement by the government. The question is asked on behalf of the communities of faith that explicitly tasked the government with that. That is a right religious communities have guaranteed by the constitution. The government is not asking you if you are a member of a religious community that has not choosen to use that service.
- josefx 10y ago
  Do you mean on tax forms or the declaration that you are not a member of Scientology? Afaik you can enter whatever you want on the tax form, it is just used to collect membership fees/church tax on behalf of a church. Mostly part of an old deal between the state and the catholic church. Scientology on the other hand counts more or less as an enemy of the state, stability and not something you let near children. So you need to fill out a corresponding form for specific jobs. If even half the stories of what they get up to are true that is a good thing.

GrinningFool 10y ago

I think people would switch pretty quickly. Most people will have friends locally and regionally - there will be some cut off internationally but they'd be the minority. And if everyone you know is prevented from using the same messaging service, the expedient solution is to change to a different one.

teekert 10y ago

I think also that it would backfire, if you look at what happened in Brazil [0], the blockade made Telegram very popular and again with what's happening here, they benefit [1]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10749129 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10749129 [1] https://twitter.com/telegram https://twitter.com/telegram

rmc 10y ago

Extreme non-techies will say "WhatsApp is broken, use this app instead". People who read the news will know it's about the US companies wanting to spy on your data (remember Germans don't have US 4th Amendment rights), and will switch apps.

germanier 10y ago
I'm not convinced German constitutional protections are weaker than the 4th Amendment. The constitution even includes a right to the guarantee of confidentiality and integrity of information technology systems as ruled by the constitutional court. https://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/SharedDocs/Entscheidungen/EN/2008/02/rs20080227_1bvr037007en.html https://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/SharedDocs/Entscheid...
- kuschku 10y ago
  I think the argument is more that Facebook is a US company, Facebook isn’t bound by German law (unless they operate in Germany, which they do), and the 4th Amendment only applies to Americans.
  - rmc 10y ago
    > Facebook isn’t bound by German law (unless they operate in Germany, which they do) If you're not in the USA or Canada, and use Facebook, your agreement is with Facebook Ireland Ltd, and bound by Irish, and European, data protection law. A Facebook user in India has EU data protection rights.
- rmc 10y ago
  > I'm not convinced German constitutional protections are weaker than the 4th Amendment. Here's a report from the EU commission about why the US constitutional/legal protection is much less than the EU (and hence German) equivalent: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2015/519215/IPOL_STU%282015%29519215_EN.pdf Basically: Unlike the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, US 4th Amendment doesn't cover non-US people outside the US, and it only covers government warrents. What Facebook does with your data is not covered by the 4th Amendment. What Facebook does with your data is covered by Article 8 of the EUCFR.