5 ms·

Yes, this is not good? Better than the alternative?

proksoup 10y ago
I can see why a reasonable person would downvote my reply, it's short and adds no value. I don't know what else to say until I know where you're coming from though, I'm honestly asking what do you mean by that quote?
- 1123581321 10y ago
  It means that there isn't a sublime/perfect id/being/spirit at the core of us, just the same flawed person as is on the outside. So a religion or philosophy of trying to worship or obey some inner perfection ultimately just means doing whatever you feel like, which isn't a good idea let alone worth proselytizing.
  - proksoup 10y ago
    I feel it's worth proselytzing in the context of counter balancing the movements which imply some other idea is worth worshipping. It seems like a step up, from worshiping one's priest to worshipping ones self, and maybe after that we (those that see the error in both) can have adult conversations.
    - alphapapa 10y ago
      > It seems like a step up, from worshiping one's priest to worshipping ones self, and maybe after that we (those that see the error in both) can have adult conversations. Not that you necessarily intend it, but that is a false dichotomy. If the choices are between worshipping a priest (a human) and worshipping oneself (another human), you're right that the latter is a step up in that it refuses to elevate one human above another. But it only brings us closer to the truth insofar as worshipping the priest is wrong. It really just brings us back to ground zero. If worshipping the priest is wrong (by "wrong" I mean that the priest is not worthy of worship, because he's just another human), then worshipping any human is wrong, including oneself. So, either way, you're wrong--that is, you still don't know the truth, and you're still worshipping a human being.
      - proksoup 10y ago
        I don't think we disagree.
        alphapapa 10y ago
        Okay, so where are you going next, beyond worshipping self?
        proksoup 10y ago
        Not worshipping.
        proksoup 10y ago
        And for the record, finding the god within doesn't have any connotation of worshipping ones self, for me personally, the idea that it might I think is a vestige for those that see a value or need to worship a god without.
        alphapapa 10y ago
        Well, by worshipping, I mean recognizing oneself as the arbiter of meaning, purpose, and morality. Essentially it means recognizing oneself as one's god.
        proksoup 10y ago
        What need is there for purpose or morality and why ask that of your god? That is where we disagree I think.
        proksoup 10y ago
        Also, this is the most interesting conversation I've ever had, please feel free to email me at derekbreden AT gmail.com if that's easy. Have a good one either way.
- alphapapa 10y ago
  I don't understand what is hard to understand about the Chesterton quote. If someone thinks the answers to life and meaning and purpose lie within himself, he effectively becomes his own god, and therefore effectively worships himself. Then he dies. What of his meaning and purpose then? If meaning and purpose lie within ourselves, then when we die, meaning and purpose die as well. But that would mean that there is no meaning and no purpose, for how can a being create itself before it has created itself? Therefore, if we have purpose, if life has meaning, it must come from without, not from within. This is not to say that we don't possess "seeds" of truth and meaning and purpose within us--but they exist only to point us toward the truth, to motivate us to seek answers. A search for truth that only looks within ourselves is doomed to failure, for we cannot provide answers that we do not have. And if we had the answers, we wouldn't need to search for them. Those who claim that the answers lie within ourselves are deceiving themselves and others with vague platitudes, merely taking a detour on the journey toward the truth--but how tragic a detour if time runs out along the way.
  - proksoup 10y ago
    You think there are answers? The search for meaning is a poorly formed question. 42.
    - alphapapa 10y ago
      > You think there are answers? Yes. > The search for meaning is a poorly formed question. "Why are we here? What are we meant to do? Where are we going next?" These are not poorly formed or useless questions.
      - proksoup 10y ago
        "Why are we here" and "where are we going" are vastly better questions than "what are we meant to do". Do you see the difference? "why are we here" can mean "how did we get here, how did we come to be here" ... but if it means "for what purpose are we here" than it turns problematic again, no?

I can see why a reasonable person would downvote my reply, it's short and adds no value. I don't know what else to say until I know where you're coming from though, I'm honestly asking what do you mean by that quote?

1123581321 10y ago
It means that there isn't a sublime/perfect id/being/spirit at the core of us, just the same flawed person as is on the outside. So a religion or philosophy of trying to worship or obey some inner perfection ultimately just means doing whatever you feel like, which isn't a good idea let alone worth proselytizing.
- proksoup 10y ago
  I feel it's worth proselytzing in the context of counter balancing the movements which imply some other idea is worth worshipping. It seems like a step up, from worshiping one's priest to worshipping ones self, and maybe after that we (those that see the error in both) can have adult conversations.
  - alphapapa 10y ago
    > It seems like a step up, from worshiping one's priest to worshipping ones self, and maybe after that we (those that see the error in both) can have adult conversations. Not that you necessarily intend it, but that is a false dichotomy. If the choices are between worshipping a priest (a human) and worshipping oneself (another human), you're right that the latter is a step up in that it refuses to elevate one human above another. But it only brings us closer to the truth insofar as worshipping the priest is wrong. It really just brings us back to ground zero. If worshipping the priest is wrong (by "wrong" I mean that the priest is not worthy of worship, because he's just another human), then worshipping any human is wrong, including oneself. So, either way, you're wrong--that is, you still don't know the truth, and you're still worshipping a human being.
    - proksoup 10y ago
      I don't think we disagree.
      - alphapapa 10y ago
        Okay, so where are you going next, beyond worshipping self?
        proksoup 10y ago
        Not worshipping.
        proksoup 10y ago
        And for the record, finding the god within doesn't have any connotation of worshipping ones self, for me personally, the idea that it might I think is a vestige for those that see a value or need to worship a god without.
        alphapapa 10y ago
        Well, by worshipping, I mean recognizing oneself as the arbiter of meaning, purpose, and morality. Essentially it means recognizing oneself as one's god.
        proksoup 10y ago
        What need is there for purpose or morality and why ask that of your god? That is where we disagree I think.
        proksoup 10y ago
        Also, this is the most interesting conversation I've ever had, please feel free to email me at derekbreden AT gmail.com if that's easy. Have a good one either way.
alphapapa 10y ago
I don't understand what is hard to understand about the Chesterton quote. If someone thinks the answers to life and meaning and purpose lie within himself, he effectively becomes his own god, and therefore effectively worships himself. Then he dies. What of his meaning and purpose then? If meaning and purpose lie within ourselves, then when we die, meaning and purpose die as well. But that would mean that there is no meaning and no purpose, for how can a being create itself before it has created itself? Therefore, if we have purpose, if life has meaning, it must come from without, not from within. This is not to say that we don't possess "seeds" of truth and meaning and purpose within us--but they exist only to point us toward the truth, to motivate us to seek answers. A search for truth that only looks within ourselves is doomed to failure, for we cannot provide answers that we do not have. And if we had the answers, we wouldn't need to search for them. Those who claim that the answers lie within ourselves are deceiving themselves and others with vague platitudes, merely taking a detour on the journey toward the truth--but how tragic a detour if time runs out along the way.
- proksoup 10y ago
  You think there are answers? The search for meaning is a poorly formed question. 42.
  - alphapapa 10y ago
    > You think there are answers? Yes. > The search for meaning is a poorly formed question. "Why are we here? What are we meant to do? Where are we going next?" These are not poorly formed or useless questions.
    - proksoup 10y ago
      "Why are we here" and "where are we going" are vastly better questions than "what are we meant to do". Do you see the difference? "why are we here" can mean "how did we get here, how did we come to be here" ... but if it means "for what purpose are we here" than it turns problematic again, no?