6 ms·

Bravo, Apple

114 points by bensummers 17y ago

reitzensteinm 17y ago
I think it's dangerous to try to attempt humorous sarcasm if you can't pull it off. I agree with the guy, but this is painful to read. Thoughtful analysis trumps cheap shots even when you're in the right.
- ffalt 17y ago
  I don't see how this could harm. There has been too much "toughtful analysis" in this religious war. I'm still laughing.
  - reitzensteinm 17y ago
    This is not a religious war, at its core. Anyone making it out to be is confusing the issue, but I haven't seen much of that on HN. The owner of a platform is making a very clear and calculated business decision in order to strengthen their position. This comes at the expense of the thousands of businesses that are attempting to profit from the platform. Just because Mac vs PC, Android vs iPhone etc from a consumer perspective gets lost in endless, meaningless, irrational internet debate does not mean that you can't have rational, in depth discussion about issues related to developing software for these platforms.
    - ffalt 17y ago
      You are right. At its core the dispute is not funny at all. And I'm not against rationality. I'm affected financially by Apples move myself (before anybody asks: no, not flash). I stand by my point that it's a religious war since it's not about technology _at all_. There are fundamentalist on both sides and they don't and won't care about any argument. Endless, meaningless, irrational internet debates don't mean that you can't have a good laugh.
  - adzuci 17y ago
    I have to agree with the laughing part, and I might say that calling this a "religious war" is going a bit too far, but I'd say that for emacs vs vim fanatics as well. I'm frustrated with Apple for their choices, but I expect that developers will work with it, and Apple does have some good points to their aid. Overall, Apple will happily bicker with their developers, but in the end they will always be trying to support them. On the sarcasm part, I think anyone coming across this and missing that won't think too much about it, and no harm done will be remembered.
- neonfunk 17y ago
  It's exactly this kind of sarcasm I avoid when replying to someone I disagree with (HN has definitely helped me mature comments-wise). It antagonizes the opposite party, preventing a rational debate. There are plenty of smart people who disagree with you. Assuming the answer is obvious harms your argument. (I have a personal exception for tea baggers.)
  - jimbokun 17y ago
    "(I have a personal exception for tea baggers.)" I have a personal exception for anyone who thinks it is a good idea to legally enforce programming language choice in a developer agreement.
  - reitzensteinm 17y ago
    It's a bad habit that I've (mostly successfully) tried to stop myself as well. Growing up, I was struck by two realisations: 1) I had dismissed sarcastically (or worse) many people as idiots who I discovered later were right 2) I have very little capacity to determine whether someone is thinking two or three steps ahead of me, at least from a couple of forum posts The pain of remembering multiple situations where I was 'that guy' is enough to keep me in check, mostly :)
  - jerf 17y ago
    Your attempt at an aura of wisdom is rather sullied when you tar half of a country with a crude sexual epitaph. (Or are you perhaps one of the apparently large number of people who are unaware of what "tea bagger" actually means?) I suggest that your "maturity" is still perhaps not to the point where you should be lecturing others quite yet.
    - neonfunk 17y ago
      Looking at my comment again, I think you're right. I'm succumbing to the same cheap temptation. Morals for me intertwine much more with politics than with tech -- and I feel strongly enough sometimes that I can't contain myself. How to constructively debate with people who seem as if in another world? That I would even say that surely indicates I haven't figured it out yet; it seems impossible that we could see things so differently -- it's almost painful to think about.
- hristov 17y ago
  I thought it was pretty funny.
raganwald 17y ago
"There is no room in this factory for levity, no matter how weak." --I Love Lucy, 1952. I'm up for satire, but to qualify for my admiration, I'm looking for the satire to address both the action and the motivation of the party being skewered. In this case, making fun of the "no other languages" clause is totally fair game, but by characterizing it as an attempt to weed out wimpy developers it is attacking a straw man instead of addressing Apple's desire to defend control of their own platform against encroachment by Adobe and others.
swombat 17y ago
Well, the first effect I see of this new clause is that Adobe have finally suddenly figured out how to export to HTML5 instead of just SWF. Not bad for a few lines of english added to an obscure document.
- mattparcher 17y ago
  Sarcasm? I'm no Adobe fan, but give them some credit. They may be influenced by Apple's position, but whatever we're seeing from them now has surely been under development for a long time (i.e. months, not days).
- stratospark 17y ago
  Sorry, but your reasoning is just plain wrong in a number of ways. I saw news about plans for Creative Suite being able to export to HTML5 months ago. Adobe knows that that Flash is going to lose market share, they're smart enough to see the writing on the wall and prepare accordingly. Their designer tools don't have to be tied to Flash's fate. I think it's beautiful that the same tools can theoretically target Flash Player, HTML5, native iPhone, Android, etc. Everything is just an abstraction to ones and zeroes in the end. The first effect of Apple's clause has been to brew up a shitstorm among developers who understand how computation works and how arbitrary business practices aren't aligned with technical reality.
alrex021 17y ago
Bravo Apple: ... By raising the barrier of entry, and only permitting "real" programming languages (ie, "C" based ones) Frankly I think, and I'm sure many here would agree, this is bullshit. [edit] The rest of the post only gets worse. Very little facts and plenty of noise.
- unignorant 17y ago
  The sarcasm/satire was bad, but it should have been detectable.
- xal 17y ago
  Fascinating. The above post should act as a reminder that Sarcasm on the internet is really not a good idea. Don't feel bad, it's never the readers fault when sarcasm isn't obvious, that's always the fault of the writer ( usually the mistake is to employ sarcasm in first place ).
  - gloob 17y ago
    Frankly, my biggest complaint about the article was that the sarcasm was far too obvious to be funny. Not that I disagree with the idea that Sarcasm on the internet is really not a good idea.
    - devinj 17y ago
      Yeah, that was my only complaint. Satire is so much better when halfway through you go, "Oh, I get it!". This is just simple, if fun, sarcastic ranting. And I am extremely surprised there's a person out there that didn't get it. Sarcasm on the internet is totally a good idea!
  - akadien 17y ago
    Somebody needs to invent a font or HTML 5 tag for sarcasm.
    - lt 17y ago
      http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5350/w3ctwitter7998492.png http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5350/w3ctwitter7998492.png
akadien 17y ago
I disagree with Reitzensteinm. It's brilliant sarcasm and deserves every upvote.
- sorbus 17y ago
  ... I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. I had the same problem with the article for the first two paragraphs, though, so yeah ...
klochner 17y ago
Given the volume of idiotic blog writing, I hope I'm forgiven for giving up on this one after the first three lines (and subsequently wondering wtf all the HN comments were about).
jsz0 17y ago
I realize this is supposed to be satire but I think it's not too healthy to obsess/rage over something you can easily avoid. Go download the Android SDK, BBOS SDK or WebOS SDK. Unlike almost any time in the past the barrier of entry to different platforms is ridiculously low. My personal theory is the success of the App Store and iPhone OS devices is creating this ethical rift in people who used to be able to see the computing world in very black & white terms. Suddenly they are confronted with the idea that maybe there are deep issues in an open platform that generally make the user feel stupid, confused, and frustrated leading them to be less likely to actually use the device and put money into developer's pockets. It's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with to understand why people obsess over everything iPhone OS related. Otherwise they'd just man up and go write Android apps?
- ffalt 17y ago
  Excuse me, where can I download the significant investment I've made to the iPlatform (_not_ the only platform i was targeting). My consequence is to leave Apple and its customers in their walled garden. Indeed I'm going to write for Android and Maemo...
donaq 17y ago
What a wonderfully positive and constructive take on the subject. Way to go, champ. You go get them, tiger.</tongue in cheek>
slashdotter 17y ago
This was actually extremely thoughtful and brilliant. The shots are not cheap, they are dead-on. Bravo, Gamehaxe!

114 points by bensummers 17y ago

I think it's dangerous to try to attempt humorous sarcasm if you can't pull it off. I agree with the guy, but this is painful to read. Thoughtful analysis trumps cheap shots even when you're in the right.

ffalt 17y ago
I don't see how this could harm. There has been too much "toughtful analysis" in this religious war. I'm still laughing.
- reitzensteinm 17y ago
  This is not a religious war, at its core. Anyone making it out to be is confusing the issue, but I haven't seen much of that on HN. The owner of a platform is making a very clear and calculated business decision in order to strengthen their position. This comes at the expense of the thousands of businesses that are attempting to profit from the platform. Just because Mac vs PC, Android vs iPhone etc from a consumer perspective gets lost in endless, meaningless, irrational internet debate does not mean that you can't have rational, in depth discussion about issues related to developing software for these platforms.
  - ffalt 17y ago
    You are right. At its core the dispute is not funny at all. And I'm not against rationality. I'm affected financially by Apples move myself (before anybody asks: no, not flash). I stand by my point that it's a religious war since it's not about technology _at all_. There are fundamentalist on both sides and they don't and won't care about any argument. Endless, meaningless, irrational internet debates don't mean that you can't have a good laugh.
- adzuci 17y ago
  I have to agree with the laughing part, and I might say that calling this a "religious war" is going a bit too far, but I'd say that for emacs vs vim fanatics as well. I'm frustrated with Apple for their choices, but I expect that developers will work with it, and Apple does have some good points to their aid. Overall, Apple will happily bicker with their developers, but in the end they will always be trying to support them. On the sarcasm part, I think anyone coming across this and missing that won't think too much about it, and no harm done will be remembered.
neonfunk 17y ago
It's exactly this kind of sarcasm I avoid when replying to someone I disagree with (HN has definitely helped me mature comments-wise). It antagonizes the opposite party, preventing a rational debate. There are plenty of smart people who disagree with you. Assuming the answer is obvious harms your argument. (I have a personal exception for tea baggers.)
- jimbokun 17y ago
  "(I have a personal exception for tea baggers.)" I have a personal exception for anyone who thinks it is a good idea to legally enforce programming language choice in a developer agreement.
- reitzensteinm 17y ago
  It's a bad habit that I've (mostly successfully) tried to stop myself as well. Growing up, I was struck by two realisations: 1) I had dismissed sarcastically (or worse) many people as idiots who I discovered later were right 2) I have very little capacity to determine whether someone is thinking two or three steps ahead of me, at least from a couple of forum posts The pain of remembering multiple situations where I was 'that guy' is enough to keep me in check, mostly :)
- jerf 17y ago
  Your attempt at an aura of wisdom is rather sullied when you tar half of a country with a crude sexual epitaph. (Or are you perhaps one of the apparently large number of people who are unaware of what "tea bagger" actually means?) I suggest that your "maturity" is still perhaps not to the point where you should be lecturing others quite yet.
  - neonfunk 17y ago
    Looking at my comment again, I think you're right. I'm succumbing to the same cheap temptation. Morals for me intertwine much more with politics than with tech -- and I feel strongly enough sometimes that I can't contain myself. How to constructively debate with people who seem as if in another world? That I would even say that surely indicates I haven't figured it out yet; it seems impossible that we could see things so differently -- it's almost painful to think about.
hristov 17y ago
I thought it was pretty funny.

raganwald 17y ago

"There is no room in this factory for levity, no matter how weak." --I Love Lucy, 1952. I'm up for satire, but to qualify for my admiration, I'm looking for the satire to address both the action and the motivation of the party being skewered. In this case, making fun of the "no other languages" clause is totally fair game, but by characterizing it as an attempt to weed out wimpy developers it is attacking a straw man instead of addressing Apple's desire to defend control of their own platform against encroachment by Adobe and others.

swombat 17y ago

Well, the first effect I see of this new clause is that Adobe have finally suddenly figured out how to export to HTML5 instead of just SWF. Not bad for a few lines of english added to an obscure document.

mattparcher 17y ago
Sarcasm? I'm no Adobe fan, but give them some credit. They may be influenced by Apple's position, but whatever we're seeing from them now has surely been under development for a long time (i.e. months, not days).
stratospark 17y ago
Sorry, but your reasoning is just plain wrong in a number of ways. I saw news about plans for Creative Suite being able to export to HTML5 months ago. Adobe knows that that Flash is going to lose market share, they're smart enough to see the writing on the wall and prepare accordingly. Their designer tools don't have to be tied to Flash's fate. I think it's beautiful that the same tools can theoretically target Flash Player, HTML5, native iPhone, Android, etc. Everything is just an abstraction to ones and zeroes in the end. The first effect of Apple's clause has been to brew up a shitstorm among developers who understand how computation works and how arbitrary business practices aren't aligned with technical reality.

alrex021 17y ago

Bravo Apple: ... By raising the barrier of entry, and only permitting "real" programming languages (ie, "C" based ones) Frankly I think, and I'm sure many here would agree, this is bullshit. [edit] The rest of the post only gets worse. Very little facts and plenty of noise.

unignorant 17y ago
The sarcasm/satire was bad, but it should have been detectable.
xal 17y ago
Fascinating. The above post should act as a reminder that Sarcasm on the internet is really not a good idea. Don't feel bad, it's never the readers fault when sarcasm isn't obvious, that's always the fault of the writer ( usually the mistake is to employ sarcasm in first place ).
- gloob 17y ago
  Frankly, my biggest complaint about the article was that the sarcasm was far too obvious to be funny. Not that I disagree with the idea that Sarcasm on the internet is really not a good idea.
  - devinj 17y ago
    Yeah, that was my only complaint. Satire is so much better when halfway through you go, "Oh, I get it!". This is just simple, if fun, sarcastic ranting. And I am extremely surprised there's a person out there that didn't get it. Sarcasm on the internet is totally a good idea!
- akadien 17y ago
  Somebody needs to invent a font or HTML 5 tag for sarcasm.
  - lt 17y ago
    http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5350/w3ctwitter7998492.png http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5350/w3ctwitter7998492.png

akadien 17y ago

I disagree with Reitzensteinm. It's brilliant sarcasm and deserves every upvote.

sorbus 17y ago
... I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. I had the same problem with the article for the first two paragraphs, though, so yeah ...

klochner 17y ago

Given the volume of idiotic blog writing, I hope I'm forgiven for giving up on this one after the first three lines (and subsequently wondering wtf all the HN comments were about).

jsz0 17y ago

I realize this is supposed to be satire but I think it's not too healthy to obsess/rage over something you can easily avoid. Go download the Android SDK, BBOS SDK or WebOS SDK. Unlike almost any time in the past the barrier of entry to different platforms is ridiculously low. My personal theory is the success of the App Store and iPhone OS devices is creating this ethical rift in people who used to be able to see the computing world in very black & white terms. Suddenly they are confronted with the idea that maybe there are deep issues in an open platform that generally make the user feel stupid, confused, and frustrated leading them to be less likely to actually use the device and put money into developer's pockets. It's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with to understand why people obsess over everything iPhone OS related. Otherwise they'd just man up and go write Android apps?

ffalt 17y ago
Excuse me, where can I download the significant investment I've made to the iPlatform (_not_ the only platform i was targeting). My consequence is to leave Apple and its customers in their walled garden. Indeed I'm going to write for Android and Maemo...

donaq 17y ago

What a wonderfully positive and constructive take on the subject. Way to go, champ. You go get them, tiger.</tongue in cheek>

slashdotter 17y ago

This was actually extremely thoughtful and brilliant. The shots are not cheap, they are dead-on. Bravo, Gamehaxe!