21 ms·

Am I Introverted, or Just Rude?

237 points by hvo 10y ago

throwaway_xx9 10y ago
Hey, I resemble that! :)
marmot777 10y ago
I can completely relate to the T-shirt mentioned in the first paragraph: “Sorry I’m late,” the T-shirt reads. “I didn’t want to be here.” The thing is that I end up really glad I went about 90% of the time. So I'm not sure I qualify as an introvert or if I'm just a chicken shit extrovert. Either way, it's a big struggle. I do enjoy alone time a lot, though.
- zzalpha 10y ago
  Speaking as a fellow chicken shit extrovert, I can relate. I'm basically extroverted with very mild social anxiety, coupled with run-of-the-mill self-doubt/self-esteem issues. But once I get going, I code-switch to "outgoing guy" and I usually have a great time. Well, until I'm done, and then I'm done. :)
  - marmot777 10y ago
    LOL. And i turn into a pumpkin (read: blithering idiot) at 10:00 pm at the latest if it's evening. It's just social exhaustion.
  - marmot777 10y ago
    Disclaimer: No suggestion anyone I'm responding to does any of this... Weed sometimes helps, sometimes hurts, but usually hurts. The weed isn't helpful even if just meeting a couple friends for a beer who know I'm stoned. They aren't stoned so we're in a different space and it's harder to connect, leading to me getting left behind in the conversation. Not intellectually but more emotionally as in why less eye contact with me? I asked about it and sure enough, the answer was what I expected. And these are people who do do it occasionally so even for them they'd rather deal with me not high. Alcohol usually hurts. The ceremony of having a couple drinks with friends is the drinking together so it's not helpful to be halfway there already. And if it's non-drinking event, see above, same kind of problem. I find too much alcohol to be uncomfortable so I rarely go that route to prepare but I can see how it could seem appealing for people who like it more than I do.
- Nav_Panel 10y ago
  I feel the same way. After considering it, I've decided I'm halfway between an introvert and an extrovert (and also that I don't like telling people about it). Elaborating on halfway: when my "job" was "be social and go to class all day" and my leisure time was "hang around suburbs with the same crew of friends," I needed a lot of alone time to recharge and I'd be miserable going out. Now that my job is "write code all day" and my leisure time is "read books and work on music," I feel a heavy need to socialize, and I often enjoy going out. Just like many things, it's a spectrum, and everyone falls somewhere.
  - LukeB_UK 10y ago
    I believe the term for that is social introvert.
    - marmot777 10y ago
      Social Introvert. Could you define that or do I have look it up? :-)
  - marmot777 10y ago
    Yes, and I've worked at home for a number of years and have really gotten used to it. It makes a person sort of adjust to stillness and, frankly, loneliness. Yeah, the half way between idea works well. I think that the fear of socializing is all front loaded. For at least a couple days before anything, I'm anxious, and that usually dissipates once I arrive and get settled. The settled part is grounding. If I fail to ground successfully or if I flat out don't like being there, then the anxiety can continue the entire time I'm there. It's exhausting. I can see how someone having some experiences like that might conclude that's how it is. Not necessarily is what I'd say. Get grounded. Accept some fails. Easy for me to say sitting on my couch blissfully aware that I have no plans until tomorrow.
    - Nav_Panel 10y ago
      > I think that the fear of socializing is all front loaded I agree, at least when I'm in a non-social lifestyle (when I'm living a social "school" lifestyle then I get grumpy and look for ways to leave). I think living in a big city (NYC) "helps", because you have a lot of options available and because the loneliness can be so oppressive that it almost forces you out into some sort of social setting. Usually it helps me to have someone to go with. Then, (1) I can't bail because they're also depending on me, and (2) it gives me a little safety net to fall back on in case I'm having trouble socializing. That said, I've had great experiences going out alone, but it can be tough to get the conversation started (or tough to convince yourself to start a conversation) unless it's explicitly a meet-and-greet kinda thing.
- chillwaves 10y ago
  You're all over this thread (with good contributions) but this is the best. For me, I build up this fiction of how an event will be. How it will be awkward, how I will wish I was somewhere else doing something else. But it's just a fiction, and the truth is you never know until you try. Going in with an open mind or even trying to have fun instead of prejudging the event has a real effect on if I have a good time. Different people need different things, for me just a little optimism can do wonders.
  - marmot777 10y ago
    Yes, last night I was all over this thread and thanks as I wasn't sure if it was too much, OK, or didn't matter in the slightest either way. Same problem IRL. :-) Yes, absolutely, you're right you never know until try it. I have something coming up that I 100% must go to by design, I'm responsible for it. Anxiety setting in and it's very likely if it weren't for the little trick, I'd talk myself out of going. I'd actively let people down if I don't go to this thing. Maybe that's how I should role from now on be front and center with some responsibility so I can't skip out without being a total asshole. :-) Note: people flip out with happiness when someone steps up and gets something going for other people. It's not that hard to do it either. Weird that more people don't do it.
  - marmot777 10y ago
    OK, the thing I lead yesterday went well. There were a couple irritating people there but that's just people. The penalty for leaving the house is pretty low. :-)
TillE 10y ago
"The more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated our society is likely to become." So this is the only sentence approaching a real argument in the article. And it's not entirely unreasonable, but the author goes straight to words like "antisocial", "rude", "self-indulgent", and "selfish" to describe the act of skipping large gatherings. I'm just not entirely convinced that introverts are likely to cause the downfall of civilization. Even in the pathological cases of truly isolated individuals, they're really only harming themselves.
mhurron 10y ago
Can't I be both? I am an introvert (personality type) but I am frequently rude to people I do not give much of a shit about (choice).
- zzalpha 10y ago
  Of course it can be both. The question the author is asking, given the above, is: where is the line between introversion and just being selfish? And does she cross it and then justify her selfishness as introversion?
  - lerax 10y ago
    Exactly. Good catch.
- bobbytherobot 10y ago
  The author was claiming she was using her introvert nature as an excuse for being rude. You can be both extraverted and rude too. An extravert should excuse their rude outward behavior on being an extravert.
11thEarlOfMar 10y ago
Every social interaction is a kind of investment. At work it's to advance your career or just remain employed. And there are few professions where you really don't have to communicate with anyone at all and can still make a living. Even introverts need to gain enough skill (chutzpah?) to communicate with their colleagues. Socially, it's another matter entirely. There are obligatory communications that you really can't reasonably dodge, like planning family Holidays, or finding a friend to join you to a concert, or calling around to get a decent price on a set of tires. Then there are the real small-talk situations. Standing in line at the coffee shop, sitting with another parent you've never met waiting for your turn at the parent teach conference, the bored bartender while you're trying to relax the last evening of a business trip... These opportunities have different payoffs that really depend only to you. If you're an extrovert, a conversation with a stranger may be invigorating. And yes, you might learn something valuable, or offer some advice that genuinely helps a stranger. For me, there is simply no payoff. The investment of awkwardness versus the comfort of remaining withdrawn is just not worth it. Once in a while, I might be in a particularly good mood and actually strike up a conversation. But that is a rare moment for me, and I usually end the conversation thinking that the last thing I said for sure came across as weird and they had no clue what I meant... So usually, I want to remain in thought, or distracted by some type of entertainment or doing something that I deem to be productive. Thank God for my iPhone. I'll satisfy my obligations to society in other ways.
- jimmaswell 10y ago
  Are you saying it's socially "obligatory" to not go to concerts alone? I've done that a few times, and I don't think anyone notices or cares, and if they do, so what?
  - 11thEarlOfMar 10y ago
    I'm an introvert. I've gone to Disneyland alone, for God's sake. And I'm pretty sure that people who saw me there alone thought I was weird. It was definitely a so what situation.
    - 10y ago
nostrademons 10y ago
"In a contest between my manners and my preferences, am I allowing my preferences to win?" There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't mind the consequences that follow.
- borplk 10y ago
  The funny thing is if you get successful people praise you for sticking to your preference. It's like a fuck-you card. People will blame the college kid for not dressing more professionally. But suddenly if the college kid becomes Zuckerberg/Jobs people will praise him. "Oh he just always wears [that hoodie/jeans/tshirt/turtleneck]. He's cool and simple and down-to-earth like that not like all these other stupid materialistic people who buy expensive clothes."
thomaslee 10y ago
So, uh, color me selfish. :) Perhaps this isn't a constructive comment, but I just don't understand these articles that take a long, hard, meandering look at human nature only to arrive at some absolute "truth" like the author's some arbiter of what's right and wrong in the world. Whatever gets eyeballs, I guess.
CuriouslyC 10y ago
"When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude to the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense. The more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated our society is likely to become" What is the objective justification for calling skipping a gathering of strangers rude? Who is to say that a society where people are more apart won't turn out better, once people get over the antiquated notion that they MUST be connected or they are somehow defective? "There are many excuses for failing to conduct ourselves with courtesy, for avoiding gatherings and conversations we don’t think we will enjoy, or for just putting on our pajamas and staying home. Too many of them boil down to just that one thing: We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others. That’s not about introversion. It’s just an ordinary version of selfishness." Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate if they give? Most of the introverts I've gotten to know are exceedingly kind and loyal once they view you as a legitimate human being.
- marmot777 10y ago
  Skipping a gathering is not rude unless the purpose of the gathering is to honor someone that you care about. Say a birthday party, wedding, that kind of thing. It's not only rude to not come, it's rude to be a grump sitting in the corner too. Because it's about the two people getting married. Yeah, it's rude to not have fun at an event like that. Have to try at least and not complain even the slightest bit. Now at your party, cry if if you want to I think is the appropriate philosophy. I'd say those are the only obligatory events.
- noobermin 10y ago
  >Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate if they give? I really don't think that is the case, introverts aren't "broken angels who just need to be won over," they have completely different internal motivations.
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    Besides... implying that extroverts don't have traumatic social experiences? Statistically speaking, extroverts should have many times more such bad social experiences simply because they have many more total social experiences. If that's your argument, then it boils down to extroverts evidently being able to "get over it" much better than introverts.
lerax 10y ago
Yes, after that reading I really confirmed (again) about I be introverted. Because I just don't care about myself, so the other possibility would be a contradiction if be True. And yes... Sometimes the introversion of some people is just about a sick selfishness behavior. Why thinking you feelings is better and superior to others? Why criticism about the bad English of some ones instead try its meaning? Know a language, like Mathematics or Greek is just about opportunities, is not about be smart. Actually, what you are trying really say each selfishly content whose are you writing in the internet? Why are we trying so hard to just confirm our existing hurting the others? Where is the fun about that? I just don't understand it. :( This really makes me sad. Thinking about why some people just don't thinks the reason of your "random" feelings and the horrible reasons to hurt the lifestyle of others to justify your own dementia.
WheelsAtLarge 10y ago
This article hit a nerve with me. I'm an introvert. I know that now but for years I wondered why I hated being around people and large gatherings. I figured I was just strange and let myself not attend gatherings and be by myself. I found it easier and more satisfying than having to deal with people. Now, many years later, I understand that I did myself a disservice. I missed many gatherings that I now wished I had attended. I'm sure I missed many connections that I would have enjoyed. I understand now it's ok to be an introvert but it's not ok to let it control how you deal with people. Not necessarily because you're somehow being less than cordial to people, believe me most people won't miss you, but because you miss out on life's moments and that is your loss and no one else's. Life is too short to miss them and most will not come by again.
- marmot777 10y ago
  Yes, you're never missing out on life's moments. This is a moment. It's not that bad. But yeah you'll miss a lot of good good moments and opportunities to meet very cool people because you weren't willing to experience discomfort, risk rejection, and weather some boredom and irritation. Just showing up actually is 80% of it. It's true if done consistently there are pretty much guaranteed rewards. It just will suck some of the time and it's easy to then run. Speaking for myself.
justinator 10y ago
> “Sorry I’m late,” the T-shirt reads. “I didn’t want to be here.” I don't want to seem rude, but what usually gets me with such cutesy sayings is that it's wholly trite and unoriginal, and why would you want that on a t-shirt you wear? https://www.google.com/search?q=Sorry+I%E2%80%99m+late+I+didn%E2%80%99t+want+to+be+here https://www.google.com/search?q=Sorry+I%E2%80%99m+late+I+did.... If someone were to show me one of these shirts, and be like, "hey, that's you!", I would kinda feel like... you don't really know who I am. You're just trying to explain something as complex as an introvert's inside life and not doing so well. So, maybe I do feel for the author of the piece. I feel also that (as an introvert), it's not that I don't want to hang out with my wonderful friends, it's just that there's something I want to do much, much, more, that just happens to be something I do alone. Tonight, my friends want to go dancing, and I love dancing (and I love my friends), but the weather is nice tomorrow, and riding a bike longer than anyone I know would want to is completely irresistible to me. My hobbies have become so extreme as I'm the only one that now participates in them. Anyone can go drinking and dancing. It's inclusive like that.
- morgante 10y ago
  > If someone were to show me one of these shirts, and be like, "hey, that's you!", I would kinda feel like... you don't really know who I am Amen to that. I can't actually imagine wearing such a shirt myself, nor can I imagine most other introverts doing so. Such shirts seem to be entirely designed for extroverts who want to seem edgy and thereby draw attention to themselves.
  - tamana 10y ago
    Or introverts who want to be edgy and scare people away.
- marmot777 10y ago
  I would never wear that shirt or any other words on a shirt. Ever. It'd be horrified walking down the street as a walking message of any sort. It's more or less the reason I'd never put on a custum and walk around, even though this is Oregon. I'd just not feel comfortable as even here most people are gonna look at you when you walk by and soon I'd assume it's ALL people. Then I'd start running, probably, barely making through the door to crack a beer and recover. I DO NOT like to attract the attention of strangers as it's intrusive on the person doing the looking (hard to avoid walking by). Frankly, when people wear something to get looked at, not a normal saying on their shirt, but something offensive. It's not the words but the intrusion I find offensive. I feel the same about people who talk on their phone in public places or have loud conversations that step on my conversation or quiet.
eyelidlessness 10y ago
> When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude to the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense. I just can't follow this reasoning. People are not entitled to my casual time. I am delighted that there are people in my life who wish I were present more, and it's unfortunate for all concerned that I do not always feel inclined to be. But it is not a wrong done, just an unfortunate circumstance.
- colechristensen 10y ago
  There are two extremes - on one side is someone who feels declining any invitation is rude; on the other side is someone who feels it is never rude to decline an invitation. Both extremes and their neighborhoods are pretty far from decent. If you're near one of those extremes, you're not entitled to average folks respecting your actions. Failing to recognize and live in the grey area somewhere in between (where there is a lot of fair play for diversity which sums up to an individual's personality) doesn't mark you as "introverted" like it's some disability and therefore should be respected, it's simply inconsiderate and if you're unaware of this, it's willful ignorance. It's not against the law to be inconsiderate, nobody should force you to be different. Just don't expect others to like you, and don't get bitter when they don't. In other words, when it comes to your "casual time" thinking you're entitled to all of it without reproach is just as bad as someone else thinking they can take any of it at a whim.
  - 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
    I disagree. No one is entitled to your casual time, and it's not rude to decline invitations. I have no obligation to spend time with people I don't want to spend time with. That being said, if I decline any and all invitations, I also have no right to expect to have friends who I can rely on, discover networking opportunities or really meaningful relationships. It's not inherently rude to decline invitations, but I have to also understand there are consequences.
    - colechristensen 10y ago
snovv_crash 10y ago
I know for me, if I don't get the alone time I completely disengage from anything social, even if I'm physically present. I don't mind being there, so it isn't social anxiety, I just zone out. I'm also not trying to be rude, it is more like some uncontrollable ADD that makes my attention wander when I'm in social situations. But get a few early nights and walks alone and I'm back to normal. When I'm rested I've been told that I'm engaging and funny, but when I'm not people (well, at least extroverts) think I'm being aloof and, as the author said, rude. But needing to sleep or to use the restroom isn't considered rude, so I really feel that my recharge time should be similar. Or maybe I just need a better way of handling it. Are there any introverts out there who have developed coping mechanisms for dealing with people when you're already peopled out, and are willing to chime in?
- mgraczyk 10y ago
  My coping mechanism is to try to control the conversation. If your mind is wandering because you're bored with something your friends are talking about, try to change the conversation to something more interesting. If your friends consistently want to talk about topics you don't find interesting, you should probably find new friends or at least more variety.
  - marmot777 10y ago
    That's a dangerous one, too. It depends on the group, friends, yes. Absolutely. Or people who you know are with you on that and you can detect that quickly as in OK that's the kind of person whose throat I might be at on HN. Excellent. Let the games begin. But recently started in with the questions and so on with some people who didn't want anything questioned all that much. Understandable as, frankly, it's not all that relaxing to have someone questioning you who's obviously trying to sort of challenge your beliefs and opinions. Not everyone wants to talk through or possibly think through things and I regret it a little. The problem is that these people were comfortable with a certain amount of discussion intensity but there was a line. And I crossed it. It was a little tense. Ugh. And it's not about disagreement. I mis-characterized that a bit. It's about taking it up a notch in intensity.
  - 10y ago
Coincoin 10y ago
I learned a lesson watching "What not to wear." A fashion show about people dressing so badly it would hinder their career. The "contestant" reason was always that no matter what they would be wearing people should judge them from "what's inside." Well, though luck, people don't do that. They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it. Sure you can continue pretending you have bad manner because you're introvert, but don't expect the rest of the world to understand and adapt to your peculiarity. That's when I stopped blaming the rest of the world for how it worked, improved my social skills and moved on with my life.
- fma 10y ago
  I'll need to watch a bit of that show. I'm a senior developer and recently promoted to team lead at a very large company. In my opinion, moving up further is not about whether I know the latest framework or how fast I churn out code..it's like you said... "They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it." This means more frequent hair cuts, nicer fitting clothes, getting rid of the canvas laptop bag from college. Even if it doesn't matter, it makes me feel better and confident - which would reflect in how I talk and interact.
vinceguidry 10y ago
I go to a bar. Several times a week. Most of the time, it's not very fun. Occasionally, I'll hit upon the right combination of mood and inebriation and I'll have a great time. I'm loud, witty, entertaining. Occasionally I'll run into somebody who can entertain the kind of deep, one-on-one conversations I need to have. But when I'm not doing either of those things, which is most of the time I'm there, I'm drinking, by myself, at the bar, while everybody else there, most of whom I've known for years, has the kind of group interaction that I simply can't be bothered to participate in. I have introverted friends that have no problem participating in the group! But I simply can't. It's not that I haven't tried. It's that, even after 6 years of going to that bar, and being friendly with all, some more than others, I'm still not comfortable with group interaction. My mind wanders, I end up pulling away slightly. After a minute it just seems easier to go back to my spot at the bar. If the conversation is actually interesting to me, then I can participate, at least until it shifts to something I could care less about. I thought about trying to care more, but if I start going against my nature, I get drained and want to go home. If I do that too often I start to wonder why I even go there at all. The way I do it, I'm comfortable. I can spend several hours there a few times a week. Introversion is real. I work to overcome my limitations, but it seems that any success I find is a result of finding workarounds, not actually fixing the problems, if there is indeed any. My next big push against my introversion will be having small, private dinners at my home with people I care the most for. Perhaps I can get over my group aversion by amping up the comfort level an order of magnitude.
- marmot777 10y ago
  The bar nights that worked are proof it's possible to get to that place. The last paragraph was the punch line, though. That's an awesome plan as I think it's something that can be improved with practice and learning but nobody starts running with a marathon.
- pitaj 10y ago
  Introversion/extroversion are a scale. There are varying levels of introversion and social anxiety.
- dennisgorelik 10y ago
paulpauper 10y ago
In a probably inevitable extension of nerd culture, the Dale Carnegie image of gregarious success was shattered by stories of powerful, successful people sitting quietly in meetings and substituting controlled online interactions for draining real world encounters. This part stuck out . Outside of social situations, economically speaking it seems like the introverts are in control of most of society. It is a good trade-off between making a lot of money and being successful as measured by prestige, vs. being extroverted and less successful? I think so.
Tycho 10y ago
I find the label "quiet" rather presumptuous. If I don't say anything it's likely because I think the odds of an interesting conversation are unfavourable. Nothing to do with shyness. Blame yourself for not being interesting, don't blame me for being "quiet." Also, I don't need to "recharge" by retreating to solitude, I just find lots of partying, drinking type situations incredible banal and would rather do something else. This is just like getting impatient with any other activity, like watching the shopping channel. Of course usually I don't say this to people. That would just be rude.
- EpicEng 10y ago
  Sounds to me like you're just not a very fun person to be around and that you like to blame your lack of social skills on others.
  - gedankespieler 10y ago
    And you sound like you're not a very fun person to be around, solely because you put someone down based on one comment and want to be self-righteous about social skills. Let me guess, you recently "overcame" social anxiety? Get some perpective. It's not gone forever. I don't think there's anything suspect about being bored by many conversations. Maybe lots of people are boring to him. Not everyone shares interests.
    - EpicEng 10y ago
      No, I never had anything to overcome... I was snarky because the parent sounds like a typical, anti-social bordering on obnoxious, engineer who thinks he's above everyone else.
- marmot777 10y ago
  è questione di gusti, of course. Your taste. There's no objective measure of interesting. That said, it's reasonable to say I tend not to like the banal banter of drunk people. It's probably true that the overall drinking culture is banal but banal is an escape for a few hours for a lot of people. You don't have to join them on that one.
GarrisonPrime 10y ago
People overestimate themselves. Maybe I'm not introverted, nor rude. Maybe you're just boring, annoying, or rude yourself.
idlewords 10y ago
Real party atmosphere in this thread. We should all get together!
- pinaceae 10y ago
  speed dating with this merry group of intellectuals must be a blast. preferably to the temple.
  - Nav_Panel 10y ago
    It's kinda cool how different sites develop different dialects and tones. HN's conversational tone is probably the least fun/humorous I've ever encountered on a website, which is (obviously) good in some instances and bad in others. What would it take to shift a website's tone? What factors, both technical/website-related and people-related, determine how the tone comes across? Food for thought.
    - marmot777 10y ago
      What's your theory on why and what would you suggest to fix the problem? You're not leading by example. :-)
      - Nav_Panel 10y ago
        Wouldn't exactly call it a problem...
    - bbcbasic 10y ago
      Downvoting behavior. Read the heavily greyed comments and turn on showing dead comments. Sometimes there is humour in there! Karma-sensitive people will adjust their behaviour and stop being funny though, amplifying the effect
      - douche 10y ago
        Fortunately, they are just Internet Points™, so it doesn't really matter if a handful of people feel offended enough by levity to downvote an occasional joking shitpost.
icanhackit 10y ago
Too many of them boil down to just that one thing: We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others. That’s not about introversion. It’s just an ordinary version of selfishness. The whole article was trying desperately to shoehorn the quote above as the ultimate truth, but it neglects important nuances and makes me wonder what the author's agenda is. Is the inverse statement true, that extraverts care more about others? That their behaviour is less selfish? Or could it be that both extraverts and introverts can be both selfish and generous, depending ultimately on the individual. That extroversion can be a tool to network with others for no other reason than to gain social mind-share for personal profit, as well as be used to build meaningful relationships depending on how it's wielded and the intention of the user? Or that introversion can be an excuse to snub ones peers as well as a tool to focus their efforts on what they find important, including helping others, rather than spreading themselves thin on many (often meaningless) endeavours? The author's perspective betrays the unspoken expectations of their culture (as does the name of the publisher). In North Western Europe it's not unusual to keep to yourself and avoid small talk. My partner and I can go for hours without talking to each other while sitting in the same room, often next to each other. You don't have to discuss every idea or observation that pops into your head. You can let an idea brew in your mind, digest it so that when you do discuss it, you can start at a more sophisticated level rather than babbling half formed thoughts and filling the verbal voids with "...like, you know..." This odd anxiety where if you're not doing or saying something, that you can't just stare out the window and watch the world pass by - that the proper thing to do is to pick up your phone, call a friend, and perform a post-mortem on the little thoughts buzzing around in your head gives me the fucking shits. Sit down quietly and form a cogent thought for one minute PLEASE. Then you'll have something worth talking about.
- marmot777 10y ago
  I don't think it's that bad for introverts here. We're not treated like dirt. We just tend to over think things a bit. Most of the extroverts are too busy socializing to worry about whether someone talks enough. I think everyone puts more weight on their own presence and how much thought others put into to how quiet someone is and so on. Most people focus on their own thing and aren't all that concerned if yours isn't the exact copy. In other words, I don't think people are really looking and judging MOST of the time that someone thinks they are. Chances are they look disapproving because they have a headache, are tired, and have too much shit to get done to be there and happen to be looking one direction or another, it could be yours.
aashishkoirala 10y ago
I for one would love to have that T-shirt mentioned in the beginning of the article.
soufron 10y ago
I am fascinated as how people are sharing "strategies" here... like "how to cope with people" or considering that social interactions are "transactions" and "investment". A little empathy anyone? Like being genuinely interested in the people around you? Like having fun by listening to new stuff... I see a lot of depressed people around there :(
- cwbrandsma 10y ago
  I watch my son, who behaves a lot like I did/do. 1. His inner imagination and dialog is often much richer than what most people have to offer. Sorry, hearing people talk about the weather gets boring quickly. 2. that inner imagination and dialog don't shut off just because people are around. You can ignore it for a while, but it gets "noisy" after a while, like a caged animal trying to get out. 3. Those quiet times alone are there to maintain sanity and balance. Give the inner dialog time to work out its thought, process the new information, figure out what you should have said instead of what you did. My son and I are actually deeply empathetic actually, when people describe injuries I feel it with them, feelings of loss hit me hard as well. But keep all the noise in my head at bay while maintaining conversation for long periods is tiring.
  - tamana 10y ago
    If you don't build relationships with people, beware that you might not have anyone to know or care for you when you are in need. If you want to be part of a supportive community, and the standard conversational forms of social grooming don't work for you, take care to replace them with something, like writing letters or doing acts of kindness
- exadeci 10y ago
  Introverts are usually quite empathetic. The thing is that for us, interacting with other people is draining so when you see that from that perspective you'd prefer to spend that sociable time for more important/interesting things.
- smsm42 10y ago
  You are making wrong assumption that it's a choice and people just don't want to do "fun" stuff because they hate you or have some other negative personal feeling. It's not so. It's just that stuff is not "fun" for them anymore. It's hard to understand if you didn't experience it, but something that is fun in one circumstance may be very hard in another. Imagine eating a cup of ice cream and eating a ton of ice cream. If you already ate all ice cream you wanted, and then all you could, and feel completely bloated and full, and somebody comes to you and says "why don't you eat a little ice cream? I made it myself, it's delicious!" what would be your reaction? What if that person insists, saying "come on, ice cream is fun! Please eat! Do you really hate me that much? Am I that bad a cook? You know, dude, you're really rude!" It's not depression - just as not wanting more ice cream doesn't mean person hates ice cream in general or is sick or didn't enjoy the ice cream they had before. It's just that they had enough and don't want it anymore. Maybe they'd want more tomorrow. But not right now.
javajosh 10y ago
I suggest you quit drugs and marry a nice girl. Maybe get into NA or something for the drugs.
- rosser 10y ago
  While I assume you mean well, the heteronormativity of your comment alone is just ... wow. Frankly, this reads, to me, like telling a homeless person to get a job.
- CamperBob2 10y ago
  Isn't NA basically a Scientology front? That said, it's interesting to note that for most of recorded history, the #1 recommendation to someone in cubano's position would be to join the locally-favored religion. Without that option -- as objectively bogus as it is -- the chances of getting his/her life back on track may be lower than they historically have been.
  - DigitalJack 10y ago
    "Isn't NA basically a Scientology front?" What? I haven't heard that one before.
    - nyolfen 10y ago
      Narconon[1] is a Scientology front. Not to be confused with Narcotics Anonymous [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcanon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcanon
  - late2part 10y ago
    I've never heard or read anyone say or suggest that Scientology runs NA besides you.
    - CamperBob2 10y ago
      I think nyolfen's right, Narcotics Anonymous and Narcanon are two different orgs.
smcameron 10y ago
Why not both?
- cJ0th 10y ago
  Because actually people are neither. I am getting tired of people putting themselves or others into a certain box because this causes a lot of trouble in forms of limiting beliefs. Categorizing people is like trying to square the circle. You're bound to get it wrong and if you truly belief you've succeeded then you are under a delusion. Personality traits are nothing but abstractions. Abstractions generally can be useful. For instance, when it comes to programming or engineering. But for stuff like personality traits they are not healthy imho. I am not big into Christianity but I like how it says in the bible that a.) god made us in his image and b.) you shouldn't have an image of god. Maybe, whoever wrote this, was onto something.
wallflower 10y ago
Just the title of this article is painting a broad picture. Why is it always a binary choice to be introverted or extroverted? Or introverted or just rude? One thing I have noticed in tech in the past 10 years is that there are more and more people drawn into it who are more extroverted than introverted. This may partially be explained by the increasing appeal of being a geek in today's popular culture/zeitgeist. Being a geek decades ago was not cool. Now, it is almost sort of accepted to be a geek, to the point where some people will try to seem geekier than they really are. Honestly, I don't give a damn about "Doctor Who". For me, if you really want to "control the conversation" like another commenter said, you don't have to do that. Just take the lead. It is not about being an introvert or extrovert. Be someone who invites people out to do something or asks people if they want to be introduced (and then introduces them - yes, it is not so binary as this can't be an e-introduction v. personal face-to-face introduction). Be more active, less passive. As I've ranted before, introverts are not always introverts. As Susan Cain talks about in her somewhat-too-popular book called "Introverts", the brilliant Professor Lewin (before he was rightly discredited and tarnished by his sexual harassment problems) proclaimed himself a performer and an introvert. There is no black or white. Everyone has fifty shades of extroversion and introversion in them. Stop this divide and conquer. Just be yourself. If you don't feel like going outside for three days, just do it. If you feel like social interaction is binge liking your entire facebook feed, go for it. If to you, you feel it is a net loss to go out to certain social outings, then you have a choice. It can be a net loss, if you are stuck in your head the entire time and thinking 'what do they think about me, what do they think about me' the entire time like a skipping CD. It is all in your head. We all make stories about the world to provide 'evidence' that the world is like X. However, it seems to be, through talking with my extrovert friends, that they don't even have that beat poetry selfish mantra in their head - they just talk to people and find out what that other person is like. Talk to that cute girl or cute guy or 'they'.
- marmot777 10y ago
  You might appreciate this PSA for Nerds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc
brhsiao 10y ago
Am I on the spectrum, or does this... > At first, saying “no” to fund-raisers and coffees brought with it a keen, almost illicit pleasure. What freedom! I started slipping out of meetings and school assemblies at the first possible moment instead of staying to chat. On one delicious occasion, I sat in my car and read a book while my children attended a family-oriented athletic function. seem like perfectly reasonable behavior? I couldn't care less if someone I knew did this. I had no idea saying no to coffee was rude. Presumably, if you break one of these rules, e.g. by saying no to some big gathering, you'll be offending someone. This would seem to suggest that there are people out there industriously keeping track of who fails to show up to gatherings and holding it against them. Really? Here, at the end of a century that saw the perfection of human flight, two world wars, and ongoing efforts to make us a multiplanetary species? If not dragging myself out to spend several hours making small talk is rude, can I just be rude?
- robryan 10y ago
  You get events where hardly anyone wants to actually be there. So some of the people who do show up end up resenting those who didn't. Similar story with people that put in an appearance for 20 minutes.
  - Swizec 10y ago
    So why have the event in the first place? Seems silly to organize something nobody wants to attend.
    - marmot777 10y ago
      Some events are zombie processes.
    - ethanbond 10y ago
      Maybe it's, I don't know, an attempt to build community, friendships, etc.? All the stuff that's apparently lacking enough for people to want to sit in their cars all day?
- 10y ago
cubano 10y ago
I am currently writing this sitting in a small motel room very close to downtown vegas and am very alone. I am back on heroin. I write this not for shock factor because, frankly, I don't give a shit about how anyone feels about it. I write this as a warning to those wise enough to hear, about how being introverted can easily lead to a lonely, fairly miserable life as you grow older. My excuse was always the same as I hear here...I'm not interested in shallow conversation or discussing things with people whom seem to have almost complete misunderstandings of the basics of things etc etc. I am 51yo, my birthday was last week..2 people texted me happy birthday and I spent the day alone, as none of my local junkie friends bothered to invite me to do anything. Yeah, big surprise I know can you believe it? I spent almost 35 years of my life, starting at age 15, playing in bands and was always surrounded by fellow musicians and all the various bar archetypes. Coding came super easy to me and it allowed me to earn very good money while living a lifestyle that had all the trappings of a happy, extroverted kinda life, and I enjoyed it immensely. I felt (and still do) incredibly blessed by the genetic gods to be born at such a time where society valued my native aptitude...I am sure there were periods where it wouldn't have been such a blessing. Looking back, I see how I was drawn to and used drugs and music as tools to overcome my introvertness, and you know what? They worked very well. But, as they say, what happens when the song ends and the dope runs out? But this is my dilemma and where it gets nutso...I wonder just how much we truly control the decisions our brain and subconscious make for us. Looking back, I have serious doubts that even if someone had shown me of picture of my bleak life right now, that I would have somehow been able to make different decisions. Even now, knowing how I should act to prevent this level of isolation, I am unable to do those things consistently enough to make them work and have all but giving up trying. So yeah..introverted, rude, selfish, disconnected for sure. But also, passionate, informed, and sensitive as well. That's life I guess.
- alashley 10y ago
  I don't really know what to say because I haven't ever dealt with heroin addiction. But it sounds like you want to turn things even though you know that you are unlikely to change as a person at this point, isn't that enough to take a step in a different direction? Into a different social circle? You also seem very self-aware which helps in most every social encounter.
jpeterman 10y ago
I knew I had come across this idea before: http://www.theonion.com/article/seemingly-shy-woman-really-just-stuck-up-friends-s-3399 http://www.theonion.com/article/seemingly-shy-woman-really-j...
- marmot777 10y ago
  The deeper meaning here is don't make assumptions on people's motives.
icedchai 10y ago
I get pretty frustrated if I don't have enough alone time. It's driven me away from almost every relationship I've had. That statement doesn't bother me as much as it should.
flanbiscuit 10y ago
It's interesting, people see me as very extroverted and I can be but what they don't see is just how much I also like my alone time and the older I get the more I can let myself be introverted and be fine with it. I think social media gives me a fake sense of being connected to people and so staying home becomes easier because I can still be "social".
MiddleEndian 10y ago
As an introvert with a fairly active social life, I disagree with the general premise. I took an "always say 'yes'" approach for awhile. I accepted pretty much every invite I received. Eventually I found myself going out all the time, weekdays and weekends. At least once a week I'd have to schedule two or three events in a single day. It was exhausting in two ways. The obvious was that it's a pain to schedule so many things, and the nature of social events means you'll meet more people which is a positive feedback loop for more events. The other was that my personal growth was being limited. I skipped exercise/sports. I was unable to finish, or sometimes even work on, my personal art/programming projects. I realized it was a problem, and I no longer feel bad turning down event invites. Whether I am overbooked on events or if I just want to build a clay sculpture, I don't consider it to be selfish. Of course I still like to see my friends, and I still meet new people, but it's definitely not the only part of being a human.
ferrari8608 10y ago
I don't think this is an issue. Can anyone who does explain to me why you think it is?
ferrari8608 10y ago
I read that you're on heroin, and that's where the reading stopped. Words from a junkie are worthless. Get your shit together man.
- ticviking 10y ago
  Some of the wisest shit I ever heard was from a junkie trying to get out of it.
  - ferrari8608 10y ago
    What was the wise shit your junkie associate imparted?
- truth_sentinell 10y ago
  I suppose you went/are going through a similar addiction. It's pretty normal to say shit like this reflecting upon the other person. Disgusting and unfortunately normal.
  - ferrari8608 10y ago
    You suppose wrong. You are correct though that it is normal to view and say things about a junkie as I do.
    - truth_sentinell 10y ago
      Normal when you're or went through similar. It's a way to download the rage you had for yourself into others, because doing it to you would catalyze your friend Ego. But beware, words have power. And if you say shit like that to a mentally-weak person, it can have serious consequences. So how about you shut the fuck up. That's completely unnecessary.
      - swift 10y ago
        Couldn't have said it better myself. Everyone should keep in mind that junkies are people too and the causes of their situation are virtually always much more complex than just a moral failing on their part.
Kenji 10y ago
Your time is valuable. Never spend it with people who bring less value into your life than you would have got if you spent this time alone. Never ever (exception: if you are responsible for someone, like a child or elderly person). It's that simple. The hard part is estimating how much value somone/going out brings into your life. Either way, you can call that rude and selfish, I call it a wise way to spend my limited resources.
- bobbytherobot 10y ago
  > exception: if you are responsible for someone, like a child or elderly person So what about when she says: "I sat in my car and read a book while my children attended a family-oriented athletic function"? I think from that single line that she was actually being rude.
tluyben2 10y ago
(Could not RTFA: nytimes blocked here) I (41/m) used to think I was introvert but now a think I have a bad case of attention deficit syndrome: I always need to do multiple things or I zone out. I am a steaming social animal: I go to parties, business meetings, friday drinks but a few minutes in I need to get my phone and do work. I just cannot help myself: when someone is talking to me I hear everything they say, I respond and have intelligent discourse but during that I am also talking with 5 people on Wechat, thinking up fixes for sites/apps and adding notes in Teamwork. Some people find it rude but when you know me you know it is not so. It was very good for me to work in China for a bit: here everyone sits typing in their phone while talking. And it is, even in meetings with very large companies, normal to pick up your phone and look something up you are not sure about. That is how it is supposed to be: go to a meeting with a bank in London and you have to know every fact by heart because people will pause and look at you when you pick up your phone... What madness is that: either I say I do not know or am not sure and delay matters we are discussing to a follow up or I pick my phone up and Google it?
tamana 10y ago
Warning: If you read this title aloud to your spouse, you might get an answer.
mukeshsoni 10y ago
Alternate title for another post - Am I rude, or just introvert?
chadcmulligan 10y ago
some people like being with random people more or less than others. Some like being with people they know and don't like meeting new people as much. If it affects your life then probably time to learn some new skills, if not then probably just leave things alone. This idea that there is some exactly right amount of number of people everyone should like hanging around is...strange.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
unabst 10y ago
This piece is actually about excuses more than anything else. > “Have you ever missed a plane?” she asked. I had not. “Then you can help it. You just care more about yourself than about the needs of others.” Typical. Feelings always come first, and we make excuses to justify our otherwise unjustifiable actions of irresponsibility. But we also confuse what the most responsible thing to do actually is. We assume it is to be on time. But that's what other's expect of us. That's being responsible in their eyes. Abiding by these expectations is done because we fear rejection and accusation and failure. This is not being truly responsible. This is being a coward. The correct responsible response is to simply state you don't want to be there, and not go. State your feelings, because that's who you are. And say so in a polite and graceful manner. Or don't. Just be honest, and spend your time better. That's being responsible. The only thing excuses do is sustain your incompetence and cowardice. If you need an excuse you always have one. There are millions of reasons why anything is not your fault. But that isn't the issue. The moment you reject excuses all together is the moment you lose the life vest that has prevented you from swimming. You need to face the water, not reason with it. You need to actually swim and decide to go somewhere, not float around in a flotation device made of excuses and let yourself be bounced around by circumstances.
hibikir 10y ago
I find the article to be a gross oversimplification: It's very hard to put oneself in other person's shoes. The same external behavior might be caused by very different internal mechanism. I have met people that are labeled as introverted that are just what he describes: One on one conversations about their behavior, with people they trust, show that they really dislike most people, and will never feel at ease in any group. They are selfish people that don't care about others at all. But there's more to it. For instance, my son avoids parties because he gets sensory overloaded very quickly: He'll hide in a corner, covering his ears. Is he selfish? I don't think so. We are doing our best to help him handle such situations, but it'll probably be a struggle for him most of his life. I also think of my own case: I am a bit of a recluse, but it has nothing to do with not caring about people: I am just painfully aware of the terrible first impression I give, regardless of what I try. It's been described as me seeming a bit 'off' in some fashion, as my non-verbals apparently say terrible things that have nothing to do with what I mean. At the same time, I get to see all that rejection as it happens, making the whole thing exhausting. I do it when I have to, but it's unfun, because it feels absolutely hopeless. It's far easier for me to fix it in smaller gatherings, where I get enough time to override that awful first impression. On the other side of the coin, I know people that are love large gatherings and social situations because they crave novelty. One example that I got to know pretty well happens to be awesome at fleeting connections: She'll leave a party and half the room thinks they got a great connection, which makes her be seen as a wonderful person in many social circles. But what happens when you look deeper? She is a novelty addict. Travels away from home a lot just to feed this. Her marriage is in shambles, because, of course, she got tired of her husband. Her daughters wonder why she is on the road so much. Friends last her about a year, by the time they are either discarded, or they have run away from the selfishness: People are like chewing gum for her. Sp when it comes to selfishness, introversion and extroversion, it seems to me that the situation is far more complicated than the article makes it seem, and we should all do our best to take a while before we judge people, as first impressions aren't necessarily correct.
- lotharbot 10y ago
  > "I have met people that are labeled as introverted ... my son avoids parties because he gets sensory overloaded very quickly" All through my childhood I was labeled as introverted. As an adult, having gone through a lot of self-reflection and self-evaluation, I realize that I have both strong introvert and strong extrovert tendencies -- with many of my strong introvert tendencies being sensory rather than social. I think I'm actually more of an extrovert socially, but I never got that label because of the sensory stuff. For example: I do fairly well in group settings, as long as they're focused somehow. I like sporting events, but not clubs, because all the noise at the sporting event is focused on the action on the field/court/ice but the noise at the club is an unrelated tangled mess of conversations and music. Big lecture halls in college, churches big and small, and actual concerts are all fine. Things marketed as a "party" usually aren't. I like most people, and have friends from a lot of different segments of society. I just don't like being overwhelmed. It seems silly to characterize me as "rude" or "selfish" because I would turn down certain types of invitations.
dodyg 10y ago
I am an introvert but I am aware of the importance of building friendships. So I took up on cooking and invite people to dinners at my house (the largest was 45 people). People are more relaxed in a home cooked dinner and they tend to like you.
peter303 10y ago
I have had several people accuse me of being Aspergers because I am not the back-slapping, party animal type. Lets leave the medical issue for those who have difficulty functioning in society and not for us introverts.
vitro 10y ago
There is too much "I", that may be the problem.
atemerev 10y ago
Missed a plane. Four times. Two of them in the row. ADD sucks.
Qantourisc 10y ago
It's rude to expect people to act a certain way as well.

237 points by hvo 10y ago

Hey, I resemble that! :)

I can completely relate to the T-shirt mentioned in the first paragraph: “Sorry I’m late,” the T-shirt reads. “I didn’t want to be here.” The thing is that I end up really glad I went about 90% of the time. So I'm not sure I qualify as an introvert or if I'm just a chicken shit extrovert. Either way, it's a big struggle. I do enjoy alone time a lot, though.

zzalpha 10y ago
Speaking as a fellow chicken shit extrovert, I can relate. I'm basically extroverted with very mild social anxiety, coupled with run-of-the-mill self-doubt/self-esteem issues. But once I get going, I code-switch to "outgoing guy" and I usually have a great time. Well, until I'm done, and then I'm done. :)
- marmot777 10y ago
  LOL. And i turn into a pumpkin (read: blithering idiot) at 10:00 pm at the latest if it's evening. It's just social exhaustion.
- marmot777 10y ago
  Disclaimer: No suggestion anyone I'm responding to does any of this... Weed sometimes helps, sometimes hurts, but usually hurts. The weed isn't helpful even if just meeting a couple friends for a beer who know I'm stoned. They aren't stoned so we're in a different space and it's harder to connect, leading to me getting left behind in the conversation. Not intellectually but more emotionally as in why less eye contact with me? I asked about it and sure enough, the answer was what I expected. And these are people who do do it occasionally so even for them they'd rather deal with me not high. Alcohol usually hurts. The ceremony of having a couple drinks with friends is the drinking together so it's not helpful to be halfway there already. And if it's non-drinking event, see above, same kind of problem. I find too much alcohol to be uncomfortable so I rarely go that route to prepare but I can see how it could seem appealing for people who like it more than I do.
Nav_Panel 10y ago
I feel the same way. After considering it, I've decided I'm halfway between an introvert and an extrovert (and also that I don't like telling people about it). Elaborating on halfway: when my "job" was "be social and go to class all day" and my leisure time was "hang around suburbs with the same crew of friends," I needed a lot of alone time to recharge and I'd be miserable going out. Now that my job is "write code all day" and my leisure time is "read books and work on music," I feel a heavy need to socialize, and I often enjoy going out. Just like many things, it's a spectrum, and everyone falls somewhere.
- LukeB_UK 10y ago
  I believe the term for that is social introvert.
  - marmot777 10y ago
    Social Introvert. Could you define that or do I have look it up? :-)
- marmot777 10y ago
  Yes, and I've worked at home for a number of years and have really gotten used to it. It makes a person sort of adjust to stillness and, frankly, loneliness. Yeah, the half way between idea works well. I think that the fear of socializing is all front loaded. For at least a couple days before anything, I'm anxious, and that usually dissipates once I arrive and get settled. The settled part is grounding. If I fail to ground successfully or if I flat out don't like being there, then the anxiety can continue the entire time I'm there. It's exhausting. I can see how someone having some experiences like that might conclude that's how it is. Not necessarily is what I'd say. Get grounded. Accept some fails. Easy for me to say sitting on my couch blissfully aware that I have no plans until tomorrow.
  - Nav_Panel 10y ago
    > I think that the fear of socializing is all front loaded I agree, at least when I'm in a non-social lifestyle (when I'm living a social "school" lifestyle then I get grumpy and look for ways to leave). I think living in a big city (NYC) "helps", because you have a lot of options available and because the loneliness can be so oppressive that it almost forces you out into some sort of social setting. Usually it helps me to have someone to go with. Then, (1) I can't bail because they're also depending on me, and (2) it gives me a little safety net to fall back on in case I'm having trouble socializing. That said, I've had great experiences going out alone, but it can be tough to get the conversation started (or tough to convince yourself to start a conversation) unless it's explicitly a meet-and-greet kinda thing.
chillwaves 10y ago
You're all over this thread (with good contributions) but this is the best. For me, I build up this fiction of how an event will be. How it will be awkward, how I will wish I was somewhere else doing something else. But it's just a fiction, and the truth is you never know until you try. Going in with an open mind or even trying to have fun instead of prejudging the event has a real effect on if I have a good time. Different people need different things, for me just a little optimism can do wonders.
- marmot777 10y ago
  Yes, last night I was all over this thread and thanks as I wasn't sure if it was too much, OK, or didn't matter in the slightest either way. Same problem IRL. :-) Yes, absolutely, you're right you never know until try it. I have something coming up that I 100% must go to by design, I'm responsible for it. Anxiety setting in and it's very likely if it weren't for the little trick, I'd talk myself out of going. I'd actively let people down if I don't go to this thing. Maybe that's how I should role from now on be front and center with some responsibility so I can't skip out without being a total asshole. :-) Note: people flip out with happiness when someone steps up and gets something going for other people. It's not that hard to do it either. Weird that more people don't do it.
- marmot777 10y ago
  OK, the thing I lead yesterday went well. There were a couple irritating people there but that's just people. The penalty for leaving the house is pretty low. :-)

TillE 10y ago

"The more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated our society is likely to become." So this is the only sentence approaching a real argument in the article. And it's not entirely unreasonable, but the author goes straight to words like "antisocial", "rude", "self-indulgent", and "selfish" to describe the act of skipping large gatherings. I'm just not entirely convinced that introverts are likely to cause the downfall of civilization. Even in the pathological cases of truly isolated individuals, they're really only harming themselves.

mhurron 10y ago

Can't I be both? I am an introvert (personality type) but I am frequently rude to people I do not give much of a shit about (choice).

zzalpha 10y ago
Of course it can be both. The question the author is asking, given the above, is: where is the line between introversion and just being selfish? And does she cross it and then justify her selfishness as introversion?
- lerax 10y ago
  Exactly. Good catch.
bobbytherobot 10y ago
The author was claiming she was using her introvert nature as an excuse for being rude. You can be both extraverted and rude too. An extravert should excuse their rude outward behavior on being an extravert.

11thEarlOfMar 10y ago

Every social interaction is a kind of investment. At work it's to advance your career or just remain employed. And there are few professions where you really don't have to communicate with anyone at all and can still make a living. Even introverts need to gain enough skill (chutzpah?) to communicate with their colleagues. Socially, it's another matter entirely. There are obligatory communications that you really can't reasonably dodge, like planning family Holidays, or finding a friend to join you to a concert, or calling around to get a decent price on a set of tires. Then there are the real small-talk situations. Standing in line at the coffee shop, sitting with another parent you've never met waiting for your turn at the parent teach conference, the bored bartender while you're trying to relax the last evening of a business trip... These opportunities have different payoffs that really depend only to you. If you're an extrovert, a conversation with a stranger may be invigorating. And yes, you might learn something valuable, or offer some advice that genuinely helps a stranger. For me, there is simply no payoff. The investment of awkwardness versus the comfort of remaining withdrawn is just not worth it. Once in a while, I might be in a particularly good mood and actually strike up a conversation. But that is a rare moment for me, and I usually end the conversation thinking that the last thing I said for sure came across as weird and they had no clue what I meant... So usually, I want to remain in thought, or distracted by some type of entertainment or doing something that I deem to be productive. Thank God for my iPhone. I'll satisfy my obligations to society in other ways.

jimmaswell 10y ago
Are you saying it's socially "obligatory" to not go to concerts alone? I've done that a few times, and I don't think anyone notices or cares, and if they do, so what?
- 11thEarlOfMar 10y ago
  I'm an introvert. I've gone to Disneyland alone, for God's sake. And I'm pretty sure that people who saw me there alone thought I was weird. It was definitely a so what situation.
  - 10y ago

nostrademons 10y ago

"In a contest between my manners and my preferences, am I allowing my preferences to win?" There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't mind the consequences that follow.

borplk 10y ago
The funny thing is if you get successful people praise you for sticking to your preference. It's like a fuck-you card. People will blame the college kid for not dressing more professionally. But suddenly if the college kid becomes Zuckerberg/Jobs people will praise him. "Oh he just always wears [that hoodie/jeans/tshirt/turtleneck]. He's cool and simple and down-to-earth like that not like all these other stupid materialistic people who buy expensive clothes."

thomaslee 10y ago

So, uh, color me selfish. :) Perhaps this isn't a constructive comment, but I just don't understand these articles that take a long, hard, meandering look at human nature only to arrive at some absolute "truth" like the author's some arbiter of what's right and wrong in the world. Whatever gets eyeballs, I guess.

CuriouslyC 10y ago

"When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude to the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense. The more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated our society is likely to become" What is the objective justification for calling skipping a gathering of strangers rude? Who is to say that a society where people are more apart won't turn out better, once people get over the antiquated notion that they MUST be connected or they are somehow defective? "There are many excuses for failing to conduct ourselves with courtesy, for avoiding gatherings and conversations we don’t think we will enjoy, or for just putting on our pajamas and staying home. Too many of them boil down to just that one thing: We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others. That’s not about introversion. It’s just an ordinary version of selfishness." Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate if they give? Most of the introverts I've gotten to know are exceedingly kind and loyal once they view you as a legitimate human being.

marmot777 10y ago
Skipping a gathering is not rude unless the purpose of the gathering is to honor someone that you care about. Say a birthday party, wedding, that kind of thing. It's not only rude to not come, it's rude to be a grump sitting in the corner too. Because it's about the two people getting married. Yeah, it's rude to not have fun at an event like that. Have to try at least and not complain even the slightest bit. Now at your party, cry if if you want to I think is the appropriate philosophy. I'd say those are the only obligatory events.
noobermin 10y ago
>Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate if they give? I really don't think that is the case, introverts aren't "broken angels who just need to be won over," they have completely different internal motivations.
- ethanbond 10y ago
  Besides... implying that extroverts don't have traumatic social experiences? Statistically speaking, extroverts should have many times more such bad social experiences simply because they have many more total social experiences. If that's your argument, then it boils down to extroverts evidently being able to "get over it" much better than introverts.

lerax 10y ago

Yes, after that reading I really confirmed (again) about I be introverted. Because I just don't care about myself, so the other possibility would be a contradiction if be True. And yes... Sometimes the introversion of some people is just about a sick selfishness behavior. Why thinking you feelings is better and superior to others? Why criticism about the bad English of some ones instead try its meaning? Know a language, like Mathematics or Greek is just about opportunities, is not about be smart. Actually, what you are trying really say each selfishly content whose are you writing in the internet? Why are we trying so hard to just confirm our existing hurting the others? Where is the fun about that? I just don't understand it. :( This really makes me sad. Thinking about why some people just don't thinks the reason of your "random" feelings and the horrible reasons to hurt the lifestyle of others to justify your own dementia.

WheelsAtLarge 10y ago

This article hit a nerve with me. I'm an introvert. I know that now but for years I wondered why I hated being around people and large gatherings. I figured I was just strange and let myself not attend gatherings and be by myself. I found it easier and more satisfying than having to deal with people. Now, many years later, I understand that I did myself a disservice. I missed many gatherings that I now wished I had attended. I'm sure I missed many connections that I would have enjoyed. I understand now it's ok to be an introvert but it's not ok to let it control how you deal with people. Not necessarily because you're somehow being less than cordial to people, believe me most people won't miss you, but because you miss out on life's moments and that is your loss and no one else's. Life is too short to miss them and most will not come by again.

marmot777 10y ago
Yes, you're never missing out on life's moments. This is a moment. It's not that bad. But yeah you'll miss a lot of good good moments and opportunities to meet very cool people because you weren't willing to experience discomfort, risk rejection, and weather some boredom and irritation. Just showing up actually is 80% of it. It's true if done consistently there are pretty much guaranteed rewards. It just will suck some of the time and it's easy to then run. Speaking for myself.

justinator 10y ago

> “Sorry I’m late,” the T-shirt reads. “I didn’t want to be here.” I don't want to seem rude, but what usually gets me with such cutesy sayings is that it's wholly trite and unoriginal, and why would you want that on a t-shirt you wear? https://www.google.com/search?q=Sorry+I%E2%80%99m+late+I+didn%E2%80%99t+want+to+be+here https://www.google.com/search?q=Sorry+I%E2%80%99m+late+I+did.... If someone were to show me one of these shirts, and be like, "hey, that's you!", I would kinda feel like... you don't really know who I am. You're just trying to explain something as complex as an introvert's inside life and not doing so well. So, maybe I do feel for the author of the piece. I feel also that (as an introvert), it's not that I don't want to hang out with my wonderful friends, it's just that there's something I want to do much, much, more, that just happens to be something I do alone. Tonight, my friends want to go dancing, and I love dancing (and I love my friends), but the weather is nice tomorrow, and riding a bike longer than anyone I know would want to is completely irresistible to me. My hobbies have become so extreme as I'm the only one that now participates in them. Anyone can go drinking and dancing. It's inclusive like that.

morgante 10y ago
> If someone were to show me one of these shirts, and be like, "hey, that's you!", I would kinda feel like... you don't really know who I am Amen to that. I can't actually imagine wearing such a shirt myself, nor can I imagine most other introverts doing so. Such shirts seem to be entirely designed for extroverts who want to seem edgy and thereby draw attention to themselves.
- tamana 10y ago
  Or introverts who want to be edgy and scare people away.
marmot777 10y ago
I would never wear that shirt or any other words on a shirt. Ever. It'd be horrified walking down the street as a walking message of any sort. It's more or less the reason I'd never put on a custum and walk around, even though this is Oregon. I'd just not feel comfortable as even here most people are gonna look at you when you walk by and soon I'd assume it's ALL people. Then I'd start running, probably, barely making through the door to crack a beer and recover. I DO NOT like to attract the attention of strangers as it's intrusive on the person doing the looking (hard to avoid walking by). Frankly, when people wear something to get looked at, not a normal saying on their shirt, but something offensive. It's not the words but the intrusion I find offensive. I feel the same about people who talk on their phone in public places or have loud conversations that step on my conversation or quiet.

eyelidlessness 10y ago

> When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude to the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense. I just can't follow this reasoning. People are not entitled to my casual time. I am delighted that there are people in my life who wish I were present more, and it's unfortunate for all concerned that I do not always feel inclined to be. But it is not a wrong done, just an unfortunate circumstance.

colechristensen 10y ago
There are two extremes - on one side is someone who feels declining any invitation is rude; on the other side is someone who feels it is never rude to decline an invitation. Both extremes and their neighborhoods are pretty far from decent. If you're near one of those extremes, you're not entitled to average folks respecting your actions. Failing to recognize and live in the grey area somewhere in between (where there is a lot of fair play for diversity which sums up to an individual's personality) doesn't mark you as "introverted" like it's some disability and therefore should be respected, it's simply inconsiderate and if you're unaware of this, it's willful ignorance. It's not against the law to be inconsiderate, nobody should force you to be different. Just don't expect others to like you, and don't get bitter when they don't. In other words, when it comes to your "casual time" thinking you're entitled to all of it without reproach is just as bad as someone else thinking they can take any of it at a whim.
- 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
  I disagree. No one is entitled to your casual time, and it's not rude to decline invitations. I have no obligation to spend time with people I don't want to spend time with. That being said, if I decline any and all invitations, I also have no right to expect to have friends who I can rely on, discover networking opportunities or really meaningful relationships. It's not inherently rude to decline invitations, but I have to also understand there are consequences.
  - colechristensen 10y ago

snovv_crash 10y ago

I know for me, if I don't get the alone time I completely disengage from anything social, even if I'm physically present. I don't mind being there, so it isn't social anxiety, I just zone out. I'm also not trying to be rude, it is more like some uncontrollable ADD that makes my attention wander when I'm in social situations. But get a few early nights and walks alone and I'm back to normal. When I'm rested I've been told that I'm engaging and funny, but when I'm not people (well, at least extroverts) think I'm being aloof and, as the author said, rude. But needing to sleep or to use the restroom isn't considered rude, so I really feel that my recharge time should be similar. Or maybe I just need a better way of handling it. Are there any introverts out there who have developed coping mechanisms for dealing with people when you're already peopled out, and are willing to chime in?

mgraczyk 10y ago
My coping mechanism is to try to control the conversation. If your mind is wandering because you're bored with something your friends are talking about, try to change the conversation to something more interesting. If your friends consistently want to talk about topics you don't find interesting, you should probably find new friends or at least more variety.
- marmot777 10y ago
  That's a dangerous one, too. It depends on the group, friends, yes. Absolutely. Or people who you know are with you on that and you can detect that quickly as in OK that's the kind of person whose throat I might be at on HN. Excellent. Let the games begin. But recently started in with the questions and so on with some people who didn't want anything questioned all that much. Understandable as, frankly, it's not all that relaxing to have someone questioning you who's obviously trying to sort of challenge your beliefs and opinions. Not everyone wants to talk through or possibly think through things and I regret it a little. The problem is that these people were comfortable with a certain amount of discussion intensity but there was a line. And I crossed it. It was a little tense. Ugh. And it's not about disagreement. I mis-characterized that a bit. It's about taking it up a notch in intensity.
- 10y ago

Coincoin 10y ago

I learned a lesson watching "What not to wear." A fashion show about people dressing so badly it would hinder their career. The "contestant" reason was always that no matter what they would be wearing people should judge them from "what's inside." Well, though luck, people don't do that. They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it. Sure you can continue pretending you have bad manner because you're introvert, but don't expect the rest of the world to understand and adapt to your peculiarity. That's when I stopped blaming the rest of the world for how it worked, improved my social skills and moved on with my life.

fma 10y ago
I'll need to watch a bit of that show. I'm a senior developer and recently promoted to team lead at a very large company. In my opinion, moving up further is not about whether I know the latest framework or how fast I churn out code..it's like you said... "They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it." This means more frequent hair cuts, nicer fitting clothes, getting rid of the canvas laptop bag from college. Even if it doesn't matter, it makes me feel better and confident - which would reflect in how I talk and interact.

vinceguidry 10y ago

I go to a bar. Several times a week. Most of the time, it's not very fun. Occasionally, I'll hit upon the right combination of mood and inebriation and I'll have a great time. I'm loud, witty, entertaining. Occasionally I'll run into somebody who can entertain the kind of deep, one-on-one conversations I need to have. But when I'm not doing either of those things, which is most of the time I'm there, I'm drinking, by myself, at the bar, while everybody else there, most of whom I've known for years, has the kind of group interaction that I simply can't be bothered to participate in. I have introverted friends that have no problem participating in the group! But I simply can't. It's not that I haven't tried. It's that, even after 6 years of going to that bar, and being friendly with all, some more than others, I'm still not comfortable with group interaction. My mind wanders, I end up pulling away slightly. After a minute it just seems easier to go back to my spot at the bar. If the conversation is actually interesting to me, then I can participate, at least until it shifts to something I could care less about. I thought about trying to care more, but if I start going against my nature, I get drained and want to go home. If I do that too often I start to wonder why I even go there at all. The way I do it, I'm comfortable. I can spend several hours there a few times a week. Introversion is real. I work to overcome my limitations, but it seems that any success I find is a result of finding workarounds, not actually fixing the problems, if there is indeed any. My next big push against my introversion will be having small, private dinners at my home with people I care the most for. Perhaps I can get over my group aversion by amping up the comfort level an order of magnitude.

marmot777 10y ago
The bar nights that worked are proof it's possible to get to that place. The last paragraph was the punch line, though. That's an awesome plan as I think it's something that can be improved with practice and learning but nobody starts running with a marathon.
pitaj 10y ago
Introversion/extroversion are a scale. There are varying levels of introversion and social anxiety.
dennisgorelik 10y ago

paulpauper 10y ago

In a probably inevitable extension of nerd culture, the Dale Carnegie image of gregarious success was shattered by stories of powerful, successful people sitting quietly in meetings and substituting controlled online interactions for draining real world encounters. This part stuck out . Outside of social situations, economically speaking it seems like the introverts are in control of most of society. It is a good trade-off between making a lot of money and being successful as measured by prestige, vs. being extroverted and less successful? I think so.

Tycho 10y ago

I find the label "quiet" rather presumptuous. If I don't say anything it's likely because I think the odds of an interesting conversation are unfavourable. Nothing to do with shyness. Blame yourself for not being interesting, don't blame me for being "quiet." Also, I don't need to "recharge" by retreating to solitude, I just find lots of partying, drinking type situations incredible banal and would rather do something else. This is just like getting impatient with any other activity, like watching the shopping channel. Of course usually I don't say this to people. That would just be rude.

EpicEng 10y ago
Sounds to me like you're just not a very fun person to be around and that you like to blame your lack of social skills on others.
- gedankespieler 10y ago
  And you sound like you're not a very fun person to be around, solely because you put someone down based on one comment and want to be self-righteous about social skills. Let me guess, you recently "overcame" social anxiety? Get some perpective. It's not gone forever. I don't think there's anything suspect about being bored by many conversations. Maybe lots of people are boring to him. Not everyone shares interests.
  - EpicEng 10y ago
    No, I never had anything to overcome... I was snarky because the parent sounds like a typical, anti-social bordering on obnoxious, engineer who thinks he's above everyone else.
marmot777 10y ago
è questione di gusti, of course. Your taste. There's no objective measure of interesting. That said, it's reasonable to say I tend not to like the banal banter of drunk people. It's probably true that the overall drinking culture is banal but banal is an escape for a few hours for a lot of people. You don't have to join them on that one.

GarrisonPrime 10y ago

People overestimate themselves. Maybe I'm not introverted, nor rude. Maybe you're just boring, annoying, or rude yourself.

idlewords 10y ago

Real party atmosphere in this thread. We should all get together!

pinaceae 10y ago
speed dating with this merry group of intellectuals must be a blast. preferably to the temple.
- Nav_Panel 10y ago
  It's kinda cool how different sites develop different dialects and tones. HN's conversational tone is probably the least fun/humorous I've ever encountered on a website, which is (obviously) good in some instances and bad in others. What would it take to shift a website's tone? What factors, both technical/website-related and people-related, determine how the tone comes across? Food for thought.
  - marmot777 10y ago
    What's your theory on why and what would you suggest to fix the problem? You're not leading by example. :-)
    - Nav_Panel 10y ago
      Wouldn't exactly call it a problem...
  - bbcbasic 10y ago
    Downvoting behavior. Read the heavily greyed comments and turn on showing dead comments. Sometimes there is humour in there! Karma-sensitive people will adjust their behaviour and stop being funny though, amplifying the effect
    - douche 10y ago
      Fortunately, they are just Internet Points™, so it doesn't really matter if a handful of people feel offended enough by levity to downvote an occasional joking shitpost.

icanhackit 10y ago

Too many of them boil down to just that one thing: We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others. That’s not about introversion. It’s just an ordinary version of selfishness. The whole article was trying desperately to shoehorn the quote above as the ultimate truth, but it neglects important nuances and makes me wonder what the author's agenda is. Is the inverse statement true, that extraverts care more about others? That their behaviour is less selfish? Or could it be that both extraverts and introverts can be both selfish and generous, depending ultimately on the individual. That extroversion can be a tool to network with others for no other reason than to gain social mind-share for personal profit, as well as be used to build meaningful relationships depending on how it's wielded and the intention of the user? Or that introversion can be an excuse to snub ones peers as well as a tool to focus their efforts on what they find important, including helping others, rather than spreading themselves thin on many (often meaningless) endeavours? The author's perspective betrays the unspoken expectations of their culture (as does the name of the publisher). In North Western Europe it's not unusual to keep to yourself and avoid small talk. My partner and I can go for hours without talking to each other while sitting in the same room, often next to each other. You don't have to discuss every idea or observation that pops into your head. You can let an idea brew in your mind, digest it so that when you do discuss it, you can start at a more sophisticated level rather than babbling half formed thoughts and filling the verbal voids with "...like, you know..." This odd anxiety where if you're not doing or saying something, that you can't just stare out the window and watch the world pass by - that the proper thing to do is to pick up your phone, call a friend, and perform a post-mortem on the little thoughts buzzing around in your head gives me the fucking shits. Sit down quietly and form a cogent thought for one minute PLEASE. Then you'll have something worth talking about.

marmot777 10y ago
I don't think it's that bad for introverts here. We're not treated like dirt. We just tend to over think things a bit. Most of the extroverts are too busy socializing to worry about whether someone talks enough. I think everyone puts more weight on their own presence and how much thought others put into to how quiet someone is and so on. Most people focus on their own thing and aren't all that concerned if yours isn't the exact copy. In other words, I don't think people are really looking and judging MOST of the time that someone thinks they are. Chances are they look disapproving because they have a headache, are tired, and have too much shit to get done to be there and happen to be looking one direction or another, it could be yours.

aashishkoirala 10y ago

I for one would love to have that T-shirt mentioned in the beginning of the article.

soufron 10y ago

I am fascinated as how people are sharing "strategies" here... like "how to cope with people" or considering that social interactions are "transactions" and "investment". A little empathy anyone? Like being genuinely interested in the people around you? Like having fun by listening to new stuff... I see a lot of depressed people around there :(

cwbrandsma 10y ago
I watch my son, who behaves a lot like I did/do. 1. His inner imagination and dialog is often much richer than what most people have to offer. Sorry, hearing people talk about the weather gets boring quickly. 2. that inner imagination and dialog don't shut off just because people are around. You can ignore it for a while, but it gets "noisy" after a while, like a caged animal trying to get out. 3. Those quiet times alone are there to maintain sanity and balance. Give the inner dialog time to work out its thought, process the new information, figure out what you should have said instead of what you did. My son and I are actually deeply empathetic actually, when people describe injuries I feel it with them, feelings of loss hit me hard as well. But keep all the noise in my head at bay while maintaining conversation for long periods is tiring.
- tamana 10y ago
  If you don't build relationships with people, beware that you might not have anyone to know or care for you when you are in need. If you want to be part of a supportive community, and the standard conversational forms of social grooming don't work for you, take care to replace them with something, like writing letters or doing acts of kindness
exadeci 10y ago
Introverts are usually quite empathetic. The thing is that for us, interacting with other people is draining so when you see that from that perspective you'd prefer to spend that sociable time for more important/interesting things.
smsm42 10y ago
You are making wrong assumption that it's a choice and people just don't want to do "fun" stuff because they hate you or have some other negative personal feeling. It's not so. It's just that stuff is not "fun" for them anymore. It's hard to understand if you didn't experience it, but something that is fun in one circumstance may be very hard in another. Imagine eating a cup of ice cream and eating a ton of ice cream. If you already ate all ice cream you wanted, and then all you could, and feel completely bloated and full, and somebody comes to you and says "why don't you eat a little ice cream? I made it myself, it's delicious!" what would be your reaction? What if that person insists, saying "come on, ice cream is fun! Please eat! Do you really hate me that much? Am I that bad a cook? You know, dude, you're really rude!" It's not depression - just as not wanting more ice cream doesn't mean person hates ice cream in general or is sick or didn't enjoy the ice cream they had before. It's just that they had enough and don't want it anymore. Maybe they'd want more tomorrow. But not right now.

javajosh 10y ago

I suggest you quit drugs and marry a nice girl. Maybe get into NA or something for the drugs.

rosser 10y ago
While I assume you mean well, the heteronormativity of your comment alone is just ... wow. Frankly, this reads, to me, like telling a homeless person to get a job.
CamperBob2 10y ago
Isn't NA basically a Scientology front? That said, it's interesting to note that for most of recorded history, the #1 recommendation to someone in cubano's position would be to join the locally-favored religion. Without that option -- as objectively bogus as it is -- the chances of getting his/her life back on track may be lower than they historically have been.
- DigitalJack 10y ago
  "Isn't NA basically a Scientology front?" What? I haven't heard that one before.
  - nyolfen 10y ago
    Narconon[1] is a Scientology front. Not to be confused with Narcotics Anonymous [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcanon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcanon
- late2part 10y ago
  I've never heard or read anyone say or suggest that Scientology runs NA besides you.
  - CamperBob2 10y ago
    I think nyolfen's right, Narcotics Anonymous and Narcanon are two different orgs.

smcameron 10y ago

Why not both?

cJ0th 10y ago
Because actually people are neither. I am getting tired of people putting themselves or others into a certain box because this causes a lot of trouble in forms of limiting beliefs. Categorizing people is like trying to square the circle. You're bound to get it wrong and if you truly belief you've succeeded then you are under a delusion. Personality traits are nothing but abstractions. Abstractions generally can be useful. For instance, when it comes to programming or engineering. But for stuff like personality traits they are not healthy imho. I am not big into Christianity but I like how it says in the bible that a.) god made us in his image and b.) you shouldn't have an image of god. Maybe, whoever wrote this, was onto something.

wallflower 10y ago

Just the title of this article is painting a broad picture. Why is it always a binary choice to be introverted or extroverted? Or introverted or just rude? One thing I have noticed in tech in the past 10 years is that there are more and more people drawn into it who are more extroverted than introverted. This may partially be explained by the increasing appeal of being a geek in today's popular culture/zeitgeist. Being a geek decades ago was not cool. Now, it is almost sort of accepted to be a geek, to the point where some people will try to seem geekier than they really are. Honestly, I don't give a damn about "Doctor Who". For me, if you really want to "control the conversation" like another commenter said, you don't have to do that. Just take the lead. It is not about being an introvert or extrovert. Be someone who invites people out to do something or asks people if they want to be introduced (and then introduces them - yes, it is not so binary as this can't be an e-introduction v. personal face-to-face introduction). Be more active, less passive. As I've ranted before, introverts are not always introverts. As Susan Cain talks about in her somewhat-too-popular book called "Introverts", the brilliant Professor Lewin (before he was rightly discredited and tarnished by his sexual harassment problems) proclaimed himself a performer and an introvert. There is no black or white. Everyone has fifty shades of extroversion and introversion in them. Stop this divide and conquer. Just be yourself. If you don't feel like going outside for three days, just do it. If you feel like social interaction is binge liking your entire facebook feed, go for it. If to you, you feel it is a net loss to go out to certain social outings, then you have a choice. It can be a net loss, if you are stuck in your head the entire time and thinking 'what do they think about me, what do they think about me' the entire time like a skipping CD. It is all in your head. We all make stories about the world to provide 'evidence' that the world is like X. However, it seems to be, through talking with my extrovert friends, that they don't even have that beat poetry selfish mantra in their head - they just talk to people and find out what that other person is like. Talk to that cute girl or cute guy or 'they'.

marmot777 10y ago
You might appreciate this PSA for Nerds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc

brhsiao 10y ago

Am I on the spectrum, or does this... > At first, saying “no” to fund-raisers and coffees brought with it a keen, almost illicit pleasure. What freedom! I started slipping out of meetings and school assemblies at the first possible moment instead of staying to chat. On one delicious occasion, I sat in my car and read a book while my children attended a family-oriented athletic function. seem like perfectly reasonable behavior? I couldn't care less if someone I knew did this. I had no idea saying no to coffee was rude. Presumably, if you break one of these rules, e.g. by saying no to some big gathering, you'll be offending someone. This would seem to suggest that there are people out there industriously keeping track of who fails to show up to gatherings and holding it against them. Really? Here, at the end of a century that saw the perfection of human flight, two world wars, and ongoing efforts to make us a multiplanetary species? If not dragging myself out to spend several hours making small talk is rude, can I just be rude?

robryan 10y ago
You get events where hardly anyone wants to actually be there. So some of the people who do show up end up resenting those who didn't. Similar story with people that put in an appearance for 20 minutes.
- Swizec 10y ago
  So why have the event in the first place? Seems silly to organize something nobody wants to attend.
  - marmot777 10y ago
    Some events are zombie processes.
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    Maybe it's, I don't know, an attempt to build community, friendships, etc.? All the stuff that's apparently lacking enough for people to want to sit in their cars all day?
10y ago

cubano 10y ago

I am currently writing this sitting in a small motel room very close to downtown vegas and am very alone. I am back on heroin. I write this not for shock factor because, frankly, I don't give a shit about how anyone feels about it. I write this as a warning to those wise enough to hear, about how being introverted can easily lead to a lonely, fairly miserable life as you grow older. My excuse was always the same as I hear here...I'm not interested in shallow conversation or discussing things with people whom seem to have almost complete misunderstandings of the basics of things etc etc. I am 51yo, my birthday was last week..2 people texted me happy birthday and I spent the day alone, as none of my local junkie friends bothered to invite me to do anything. Yeah, big surprise I know can you believe it? I spent almost 35 years of my life, starting at age 15, playing in bands and was always surrounded by fellow musicians and all the various bar archetypes. Coding came super easy to me and it allowed me to earn very good money while living a lifestyle that had all the trappings of a happy, extroverted kinda life, and I enjoyed it immensely. I felt (and still do) incredibly blessed by the genetic gods to be born at such a time where society valued my native aptitude...I am sure there were periods where it wouldn't have been such a blessing. Looking back, I see how I was drawn to and used drugs and music as tools to overcome my introvertness, and you know what? They worked very well. But, as they say, what happens when the song ends and the dope runs out? But this is my dilemma and where it gets nutso...I wonder just how much we truly control the decisions our brain and subconscious make for us. Looking back, I have serious doubts that even if someone had shown me of picture of my bleak life right now, that I would have somehow been able to make different decisions. Even now, knowing how I should act to prevent this level of isolation, I am unable to do those things consistently enough to make them work and have all but giving up trying. So yeah..introverted, rude, selfish, disconnected for sure. But also, passionate, informed, and sensitive as well. That's life I guess.

alashley 10y ago
I don't really know what to say because I haven't ever dealt with heroin addiction. But it sounds like you want to turn things even though you know that you are unlikely to change as a person at this point, isn't that enough to take a step in a different direction? Into a different social circle? You also seem very self-aware which helps in most every social encounter.

jpeterman 10y ago

I knew I had come across this idea before: http://www.theonion.com/article/seemingly-shy-woman-really-just-stuck-up-friends-s-3399 http://www.theonion.com/article/seemingly-shy-woman-really-j...

marmot777 10y ago
The deeper meaning here is don't make assumptions on people's motives.

icedchai 10y ago

I get pretty frustrated if I don't have enough alone time. It's driven me away from almost every relationship I've had. That statement doesn't bother me as much as it should.

flanbiscuit 10y ago

It's interesting, people see me as very extroverted and I can be but what they don't see is just how much I also like my alone time and the older I get the more I can let myself be introverted and be fine with it. I think social media gives me a fake sense of being connected to people and so staying home becomes easier because I can still be "social".

MiddleEndian 10y ago

As an introvert with a fairly active social life, I disagree with the general premise. I took an "always say 'yes'" approach for awhile. I accepted pretty much every invite I received. Eventually I found myself going out all the time, weekdays and weekends. At least once a week I'd have to schedule two or three events in a single day. It was exhausting in two ways. The obvious was that it's a pain to schedule so many things, and the nature of social events means you'll meet more people which is a positive feedback loop for more events. The other was that my personal growth was being limited. I skipped exercise/sports. I was unable to finish, or sometimes even work on, my personal art/programming projects. I realized it was a problem, and I no longer feel bad turning down event invites. Whether I am overbooked on events or if I just want to build a clay sculpture, I don't consider it to be selfish. Of course I still like to see my friends, and I still meet new people, but it's definitely not the only part of being a human.

ferrari8608 10y ago

I don't think this is an issue. Can anyone who does explain to me why you think it is?

ferrari8608 10y ago

I read that you're on heroin, and that's where the reading stopped. Words from a junkie are worthless. Get your shit together man.

ticviking 10y ago
Some of the wisest shit I ever heard was from a junkie trying to get out of it.
- ferrari8608 10y ago
  What was the wise shit your junkie associate imparted?
truth_sentinell 10y ago
I suppose you went/are going through a similar addiction. It's pretty normal to say shit like this reflecting upon the other person. Disgusting and unfortunately normal.
- ferrari8608 10y ago
  You suppose wrong. You are correct though that it is normal to view and say things about a junkie as I do.
  - truth_sentinell 10y ago
    Normal when you're or went through similar. It's a way to download the rage you had for yourself into others, because doing it to you would catalyze your friend Ego. But beware, words have power. And if you say shit like that to a mentally-weak person, it can have serious consequences. So how about you shut the fuck up. That's completely unnecessary.
    - swift 10y ago
      Couldn't have said it better myself. Everyone should keep in mind that junkies are people too and the causes of their situation are virtually always much more complex than just a moral failing on their part.

Kenji 10y ago

Your time is valuable. Never spend it with people who bring less value into your life than you would have got if you spent this time alone. Never ever (exception: if you are responsible for someone, like a child or elderly person). It's that simple. The hard part is estimating how much value somone/going out brings into your life. Either way, you can call that rude and selfish, I call it a wise way to spend my limited resources.

bobbytherobot 10y ago
> exception: if you are responsible for someone, like a child or elderly person So what about when she says: "I sat in my car and read a book while my children attended a family-oriented athletic function"? I think from that single line that she was actually being rude.

tluyben2 10y ago

(Could not RTFA: nytimes blocked here) I (41/m) used to think I was introvert but now a think I have a bad case of attention deficit syndrome: I always need to do multiple things or I zone out. I am a steaming social animal: I go to parties, business meetings, friday drinks but a few minutes in I need to get my phone and do work. I just cannot help myself: when someone is talking to me I hear everything they say, I respond and have intelligent discourse but during that I am also talking with 5 people on Wechat, thinking up fixes for sites/apps and adding notes in Teamwork. Some people find it rude but when you know me you know it is not so. It was very good for me to work in China for a bit: here everyone sits typing in their phone while talking. And it is, even in meetings with very large companies, normal to pick up your phone and look something up you are not sure about. That is how it is supposed to be: go to a meeting with a bank in London and you have to know every fact by heart because people will pause and look at you when you pick up your phone... What madness is that: either I say I do not know or am not sure and delay matters we are discussing to a follow up or I pick my phone up and Google it?

tamana 10y ago

Warning: If you read this title aloud to your spouse, you might get an answer.

mukeshsoni 10y ago

Alternate title for another post - Am I rude, or just introvert?

chadcmulligan 10y ago

some people like being with random people more or less than others. Some like being with people they know and don't like meeting new people as much. If it affects your life then probably time to learn some new skills, if not then probably just leave things alone. This idea that there is some exactly right amount of number of people everyone should like hanging around is...strange.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

unabst 10y ago

This piece is actually about excuses more than anything else. > “Have you ever missed a plane?” she asked. I had not. “Then you can help it. You just care more about yourself than about the needs of others.” Typical. Feelings always come first, and we make excuses to justify our otherwise unjustifiable actions of irresponsibility. But we also confuse what the most responsible thing to do actually is. We assume it is to be on time. But that's what other's expect of us. That's being responsible in their eyes. Abiding by these expectations is done because we fear rejection and accusation and failure. This is not being truly responsible. This is being a coward. The correct responsible response is to simply state you don't want to be there, and not go. State your feelings, because that's who you are. And say so in a polite and graceful manner. Or don't. Just be honest, and spend your time better. That's being responsible. The only thing excuses do is sustain your incompetence and cowardice. If you need an excuse you always have one. There are millions of reasons why anything is not your fault. But that isn't the issue. The moment you reject excuses all together is the moment you lose the life vest that has prevented you from swimming. You need to face the water, not reason with it. You need to actually swim and decide to go somewhere, not float around in a flotation device made of excuses and let yourself be bounced around by circumstances.

hibikir 10y ago

I find the article to be a gross oversimplification: It's very hard to put oneself in other person's shoes. The same external behavior might be caused by very different internal mechanism. I have met people that are labeled as introverted that are just what he describes: One on one conversations about their behavior, with people they trust, show that they really dislike most people, and will never feel at ease in any group. They are selfish people that don't care about others at all. But there's more to it. For instance, my son avoids parties because he gets sensory overloaded very quickly: He'll hide in a corner, covering his ears. Is he selfish? I don't think so. We are doing our best to help him handle such situations, but it'll probably be a struggle for him most of his life. I also think of my own case: I am a bit of a recluse, but it has nothing to do with not caring about people: I am just painfully aware of the terrible first impression I give, regardless of what I try. It's been described as me seeming a bit 'off' in some fashion, as my non-verbals apparently say terrible things that have nothing to do with what I mean. At the same time, I get to see all that rejection as it happens, making the whole thing exhausting. I do it when I have to, but it's unfun, because it feels absolutely hopeless. It's far easier for me to fix it in smaller gatherings, where I get enough time to override that awful first impression. On the other side of the coin, I know people that are love large gatherings and social situations because they crave novelty. One example that I got to know pretty well happens to be awesome at fleeting connections: She'll leave a party and half the room thinks they got a great connection, which makes her be seen as a wonderful person in many social circles. But what happens when you look deeper? She is a novelty addict. Travels away from home a lot just to feed this. Her marriage is in shambles, because, of course, she got tired of her husband. Her daughters wonder why she is on the road so much. Friends last her about a year, by the time they are either discarded, or they have run away from the selfishness: People are like chewing gum for her. Sp when it comes to selfishness, introversion and extroversion, it seems to me that the situation is far more complicated than the article makes it seem, and we should all do our best to take a while before we judge people, as first impressions aren't necessarily correct.

lotharbot 10y ago
> "I have met people that are labeled as introverted ... my son avoids parties because he gets sensory overloaded very quickly" All through my childhood I was labeled as introverted. As an adult, having gone through a lot of self-reflection and self-evaluation, I realize that I have both strong introvert and strong extrovert tendencies -- with many of my strong introvert tendencies being sensory rather than social. I think I'm actually more of an extrovert socially, but I never got that label because of the sensory stuff. For example: I do fairly well in group settings, as long as they're focused somehow. I like sporting events, but not clubs, because all the noise at the sporting event is focused on the action on the field/court/ice but the noise at the club is an unrelated tangled mess of conversations and music. Big lecture halls in college, churches big and small, and actual concerts are all fine. Things marketed as a "party" usually aren't. I like most people, and have friends from a lot of different segments of society. I just don't like being overwhelmed. It seems silly to characterize me as "rude" or "selfish" because I would turn down certain types of invitations.

dodyg 10y ago

I am an introvert but I am aware of the importance of building friendships. So I took up on cooking and invite people to dinners at my house (the largest was 45 people). People are more relaxed in a home cooked dinner and they tend to like you.

peter303 10y ago

I have had several people accuse me of being Aspergers because I am not the back-slapping, party animal type. Lets leave the medical issue for those who have difficulty functioning in society and not for us introverts.

vitro 10y ago

There is too much "I", that may be the problem.

atemerev 10y ago

Missed a plane. Four times. Two of them in the row. ADD sucks.

Qantourisc 10y ago

It's rude to expect people to act a certain way as well.