8 ms·

D-Wave Founder's New Startup Combines AI, Robots, and Monkeys in Exo-Suits

86 points by zxcvvcxz 10y ago

petra 10y ago
One way to gather all the data for training using deep learning, is run millions of robots. But that may happen if tele-operated robots become a big industry in of itself - which economically could work. So the big issue is: what is the state of the art in tele-operated robots ? And what's missing for it to become a thing ?
- Jyaif 10y ago
  We are definitely not going to do deep learning for robots that way: we'll run simulations inside virtual worlds.
  - lardo 10y ago
    http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/google-large-scale-robotic-grasping-project http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intel...
rdiddly 10y ago
Monkeys in Exo-Suits. So ripe for parody as a Gavin Belson moonshot.
sharemywin 10y ago
Isn't this a lot like Disney's robot: http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/robotics-hardware/disney-robot-with-air-water-actuators http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/robotics-hardwar...
- teddyh 10y ago
  That’s not a robot, that’s a “waldo” – a puppet that is being controlled remotely.
  - sharemywin 10y ago
    what's the difference between an exo-suit and puppet?
    - teddyh 10y ago
      I was only objecting to calling Disney’s “Jimmy” a “robot”, because is isn’t one; nothing else.
yolesaber 10y ago
Has D-Wave made any actual feasible technical achievements WRT quantum computing or are they just the Theranos of that domain?
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Heh, harmless theranos.
- dsacco 10y ago
  It's hard to say. Industry experts like Scott Aaronson have gone back on forth with regards to whether or not it's 1) truly a quantum computer and 2) capable of real improvements over classical computers for anything nontrivial. Point #2 is perhaps more important for practical purposes. Aaronson is currently back in the skeptical camp after a brief stint of "cautious enthusiasm" in 2012. Umesh Vazirani, Aaronson's PhD advisor and the grandfather of quantum computing, has been largely dismissive of D-Wave and doesn't believe their computers will be capable of much even if they are truly quantum. The technology is apparently impressive enough that Google, NASA and Lockheed Martin have partnered with D-Wave to test its capabilities, but to date it has not done anything revolutionary. I'm sure they have done something, but it's not clear what trade secrets they have can be separated from marketing, and their public work has been reproduced on classical computers. There have also been a number of articles in Nature Physics, Science and elsewhere by different authors going back and forth on points 1 and 2 above. The current consensus is that D-Wave is not creating true quantum computers; but they have developed classical, pseudo-quantum computers with legitimate entanglement implemented, and which do not currently offer any real quantum speedup or improvement over classical computers. That said, I mostly follow quantum cryptography, so I haven't read this research in a while. I am personally happy that D-Wave exists and is trying to push forward the field - I think comparisons to Theranos are uncharitable. But I am skeptical of their real advancements. Edited to clarify after reviewing the research again.
  - hannob 10y ago
    > That said, I mostly follow quantum cryptography, Which is also a field full of bullshit and nonsensical claims, and it still has to prove that it provides a solution for any real problem.
dnautics 10y ago
Why did the founder leave d-wave?
- j1vms 10y ago
  Is it not possible for someone to have more than one startup?
  - gumby 10y ago
    As someone who did it, it's really hard! You really want to be all-in on both, which of course is impossible.
inlineint 10y ago
> The operator can use foot pedals to control the robot’s movement and a virtual reality headset like the Oculus Rift to experience what the robot is seeing. Maybe it's a bit off topic, but I'd like to put here fiction sources (which I know) that explore this kind of setup: 1) A Cognitive Discontinuity story by Andrej Karpathy (2015): http://karpathy.github.io/2015/11/14/ai/ http://karpathy.github.io/2015/11/14/ai/ 2) Sleep Dealer movie (2008): https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sleep_dealer/ https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sleep_dealer/
Nanite 10y ago
Regardless of the actual/implied progress made by D-wave to build a quantum computer. The fact that its CTO of 17 or so years decides to move on to greener pastures / take on a side mission, does not bode well for D-wave
- jondubois 10y ago
  That's what I was thinking. Mechanical exoskeletons are not innovative - They already exist. Quantum computing on the other hand; that's highly innovative. Why would someone who is supposedly at the forefront of this highly innovative field throw away years of experience and start again from scratch in a comparatively much simpler field. This doesn't inspire much confidence in D-Wave.
_qc3o 10y ago
These d-wave guys are the greatest scam geniuses in history. First they make a "quantum computer" and now they're building trainable exo-suits. I don't even know where they come up with this stuff.
- zxcvvcxz 10y ago
  I'm going to have to ask you to expand on this comment and provide some context for why you think they're "scam geniuses"?
  - zazen 10y ago
    There is more-thoughtful discussion of the D-wave controversy in this thread - look for dsacco's comments.
  - dkarapetyan 10y ago
    They have consistently dodged providing any kind of real evidence and managed to survive this far purely on marketing hype. I think someone recently posted about the Bogdanov affair. D-wave is the analog of the Bogdanov affair for quantum computers.
  - ThePhysicist 10y ago
    So far D-Wave has failed to provide any direct or indirect evidence that their "quantum computer" actually achieves quantum speed up. An investigation by a scientist from ETH Zurich who was able to use their machine came to the conclusion that their quantum algorithm does not outperform a classical system. It's hard to think of a reason to refuse to publicly prove that your quantum computer is actually working if it really is, if it isn't it makes a lot of sense of course. Concerning the purchases of Google and the US government: These are probably more like research grants for D-Wave, as the buyers expect that at some time there might come a working quantum computer from D-Wave, and buying a prototype (even a faulty one) puts them in a good position to be the first to actually get a working version, while helping the company to stay afloat. By the way, Google invested 200 million USD in a different quantum computing technology endeavour led by a UC Santa Barbara professor, which would make little sense if they already had a working quantum computer. The value of D-Wave as a company is not only defined by their ability to build a working quantum computer though, as there could be significant value in the patent portfolio they built / acquired and in their expertise in building and assembling superconducting chips and systems, which are both highly non-trivial tasks. Their way of communicating with the public is of course highly misleading, which is why many people in the scientific community have very little respect for them, as this is viewed as highly unethical and harmful behavior in science (but not necessarily in the business world).
bogomipz 10y ago
I know a few years ago there was some amount of skepticism on whether the Dwave machines were atually quantum computers. Has that skepticism been put to rest? Can anyone comment? edit: I missed the comment below regarding the designation "universal" quantum computer. I guess that was the crux of the skeptic argument?

86 points by zxcvvcxz 10y ago

petra 10y ago

One way to gather all the data for training using deep learning, is run millions of robots. But that may happen if tele-operated robots become a big industry in of itself - which economically could work. So the big issue is: what is the state of the art in tele-operated robots ? And what's missing for it to become a thing ?

Jyaif 10y ago
We are definitely not going to do deep learning for robots that way: we'll run simulations inside virtual worlds.
- lardo 10y ago
  http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/google-large-scale-robotic-grasping-project http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intel...

rdiddly 10y ago

Monkeys in Exo-Suits. So ripe for parody as a Gavin Belson moonshot.

sharemywin 10y ago

Isn't this a lot like Disney's robot: http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/robotics-hardware/disney-robot-with-air-water-actuators http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/robotics-hardwar...

teddyh 10y ago
That’s not a robot, that’s a “waldo” – a puppet that is being controlled remotely.
- sharemywin 10y ago
  what's the difference between an exo-suit and puppet?
  - teddyh 10y ago
    I was only objecting to calling Disney’s “Jimmy” a “robot”, because is isn’t one; nothing else.

yolesaber 10y ago

Has D-Wave made any actual feasible technical achievements WRT quantum computing or are they just the Theranos of that domain?

agumonkey 10y ago
Heh, harmless theranos.
dsacco 10y ago
It's hard to say. Industry experts like Scott Aaronson have gone back on forth with regards to whether or not it's 1) truly a quantum computer and 2) capable of real improvements over classical computers for anything nontrivial. Point #2 is perhaps more important for practical purposes. Aaronson is currently back in the skeptical camp after a brief stint of "cautious enthusiasm" in 2012. Umesh Vazirani, Aaronson's PhD advisor and the grandfather of quantum computing, has been largely dismissive of D-Wave and doesn't believe their computers will be capable of much even if they are truly quantum. The technology is apparently impressive enough that Google, NASA and Lockheed Martin have partnered with D-Wave to test its capabilities, but to date it has not done anything revolutionary. I'm sure they have done something, but it's not clear what trade secrets they have can be separated from marketing, and their public work has been reproduced on classical computers. There have also been a number of articles in Nature Physics, Science and elsewhere by different authors going back and forth on points 1 and 2 above. The current consensus is that D-Wave is not creating true quantum computers; but they have developed classical, pseudo-quantum computers with legitimate entanglement implemented, and which do not currently offer any real quantum speedup or improvement over classical computers. That said, I mostly follow quantum cryptography, so I haven't read this research in a while. I am personally happy that D-Wave exists and is trying to push forward the field - I think comparisons to Theranos are uncharitable. But I am skeptical of their real advancements. Edited to clarify after reviewing the research again.
- hannob 10y ago
  > That said, I mostly follow quantum cryptography, Which is also a field full of bullshit and nonsensical claims, and it still has to prove that it provides a solution for any real problem.

dnautics 10y ago

Why did the founder leave d-wave?

j1vms 10y ago
Is it not possible for someone to have more than one startup?
- gumby 10y ago
  As someone who did it, it's really hard! You really want to be all-in on both, which of course is impossible.

inlineint 10y ago

> The operator can use foot pedals to control the robot’s movement and a virtual reality headset like the Oculus Rift to experience what the robot is seeing. Maybe it's a bit off topic, but I'd like to put here fiction sources (which I know) that explore this kind of setup: 1) A Cognitive Discontinuity story by Andrej Karpathy (2015): http://karpathy.github.io/2015/11/14/ai/ http://karpathy.github.io/2015/11/14/ai/ 2) Sleep Dealer movie (2008): https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sleep_dealer/ https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sleep_dealer/

Nanite 10y ago

Regardless of the actual/implied progress made by D-wave to build a quantum computer. The fact that its CTO of 17 or so years decides to move on to greener pastures / take on a side mission, does not bode well for D-wave

jondubois 10y ago
That's what I was thinking. Mechanical exoskeletons are not innovative - They already exist. Quantum computing on the other hand; that's highly innovative. Why would someone who is supposedly at the forefront of this highly innovative field throw away years of experience and start again from scratch in a comparatively much simpler field. This doesn't inspire much confidence in D-Wave.

_qc3o 10y ago

These d-wave guys are the greatest scam geniuses in history. First they make a "quantum computer" and now they're building trainable exo-suits. I don't even know where they come up with this stuff.

zxcvvcxz 10y ago
I'm going to have to ask you to expand on this comment and provide some context for why you think they're "scam geniuses"?
- zazen 10y ago
  There is more-thoughtful discussion of the D-wave controversy in this thread - look for dsacco's comments.
- dkarapetyan 10y ago
  They have consistently dodged providing any kind of real evidence and managed to survive this far purely on marketing hype. I think someone recently posted about the Bogdanov affair. D-wave is the analog of the Bogdanov affair for quantum computers.
- ThePhysicist 10y ago
  So far D-Wave has failed to provide any direct or indirect evidence that their "quantum computer" actually achieves quantum speed up. An investigation by a scientist from ETH Zurich who was able to use their machine came to the conclusion that their quantum algorithm does not outperform a classical system. It's hard to think of a reason to refuse to publicly prove that your quantum computer is actually working if it really is, if it isn't it makes a lot of sense of course. Concerning the purchases of Google and the US government: These are probably more like research grants for D-Wave, as the buyers expect that at some time there might come a working quantum computer from D-Wave, and buying a prototype (even a faulty one) puts them in a good position to be the first to actually get a working version, while helping the company to stay afloat. By the way, Google invested 200 million USD in a different quantum computing technology endeavour led by a UC Santa Barbara professor, which would make little sense if they already had a working quantum computer. The value of D-Wave as a company is not only defined by their ability to build a working quantum computer though, as there could be significant value in the patent portfolio they built / acquired and in their expertise in building and assembling superconducting chips and systems, which are both highly non-trivial tasks. Their way of communicating with the public is of course highly misleading, which is why many people in the scientific community have very little respect for them, as this is viewed as highly unethical and harmful behavior in science (but not necessarily in the business world).

bogomipz 10y ago

I know a few years ago there was some amount of skepticism on whether the Dwave machines were atually quantum computers. Has that skepticism been put to rest? Can anyone comment? edit: I missed the comment below regarding the designation "universal" quantum computer. I guess that was the crux of the skeptic argument?