23 ms·

This is not tower triangulation. Android searches for access points even when wifi is turned off. If anyone (with GPS enabled) uses that wifi with any google s

by pawadu 10y ago

This is not tower triangulation. Android searches for access points even when wifi is turned off. If anyone (with GPS enabled) uses that wifi with any google services the bssid will end up in their database. Also if the google car has been nearby it has recorded the presence of the wifi access point at that location [1]. Before you freak out: Apple and Microsoft also use access point information for positioning, although not as successfully. [1] https://googleblog.blogspot.se/2010/05/wifi-data-collection-update.html https://googleblog.blogspot.se/2010/05/wifi-data-collection-...

pawadu 10y ago
This raises another imprtant question: Is it okay for a private company to have detailed positioning data from inside of your office or home? Who would really need that sort of information? I understand how this can be useful at the mall but I think I can find my way around my own house thank you.
- deelowe 10y ago
  I thought you can disable it.
- mikestew 10y ago
  Is it okay for a private company to have detailed positioning data from inside of your office or home? I don't know the answer to that question, but I have a guess at the answer to another question: "is it okay for a private company to create a geodatabase of SSID strings that were freely and willingly broadcast via radio?" I think the answer is "yes". Ten, fifteen years ago, if there were an HN story about how I, owner of a small business you've never heard of, created a database of SSIDs that are broadcast and tagged them with lat/longs, I'd bet money it would make the top of the front page. Bonus points if I included an API and threw the thing up on github. Fine, it's evil, append "_nomap" to your SSID string. That's fine for stopping Google, but it won't stop "owner of small business you've never heard of". Don't broad SSIDs, but then (IIRC) one can still obtain the MAC address. But in the end, if a radio broadcasts something then one has little recourse when receivers use that broadcast in ways you didn't intend. The analogy crumbles under a little scrutiny, but it's similar to FM broadcasters complain about geodatabases of FM towers because the intent of the broadcaster was to allow you to listen to drive-time hyenas, not use it for location services.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    I seriously doubt most people even know whst "broadcast" means, or that "their" wifi is not limited to their own four walls and personal use.
    - bhhaskin 10y ago
      Not knowing how it works doesn't change the fact that broadcasting the SSID is a key part of how wifi works. The only real solution is not to use wifi if you don't want it to be mapped.
    - mikestew 10y ago
      "Ignorance is no excuse"? I mean, I don't know what the solution is if that's an allowable excuse. Google has to run PSA's on how WiFi works before they're allowed to scoop up SSIDs? Additionally, I don't buy that to begin with, at least not as it concerns the majority. Where do folks think those other SSIDs (even if they don't call them that) in their list of networks come from?
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Come on. There have to be some minimum standards of knowledge required for the citizens of a technological society, and I'd argue that "how radio works" is one of those things one should be expected to know.
      - paavokoya 10y ago
        minimum standards of knowledge required for the citizens Do you know how the electricity in your wall works? What about the plumbing under your house? Would you be able to fix those things on your own?
        DominikR 10y ago
        His argument was that you can reasonably expect people to know how to handle such technologies safely, not that he expects people to know how to build a WiFi Router from electronic parts themselves. Using your analogy it would be sufficient for a person to know how to handle electricity coming from your wall or the plumbing under your house safely. And generally people do know how to do that. Everyone who is regularly using WiFi networks knows that he/she can see the names of other WiFi networks in their vicinity. Therefore people using WiFi generally do know that this information is publicly broadcasted and available to be collected by anyone interested in doing so. No one believes that he is the only person being able to somehow magically see the name of his neighbours WiFi.
- xiaoma 10y ago
  ~
  - qntty 10y ago
    GP meant private-sector company
comboy 10y ago
Are you sure they do that when wifi is off? I was under the impression that it only happens when wifi is on (and it seems to me that my location on the map is more stable with wifi on). That would be very not ok if it would happen with wifi off. I turn my wifi off to save the battery, and it wouldn't do much if it was still looking for broadcasts.
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  There's another wifi setting, in advanced I think, for "scanning always available"
- sly010 10y ago
  Its a question of terminology. When you are passively listening to (periodic) SSID beacons, you are not transmitting anything, nor consuming any energy on your radio. One could do that even in airplane mode. It's very different from when you hit "scan" and are actively sending broadcast packets on every frequency and waiting for the wifi routers to (actively) answer. Which really only happens when you pull down the list of nearby hotspots.
  - mirashii 10y ago
    > nor consuming any energy on your radio This simply isn't true. You'll be using power to demodulate at a minimum. You'll also be using energy to ammplify the incoming signals and a variety of other things.
    - klodolph 10y ago
      Yes, this is also the reason why GPS is so power hungry--it takes a lot of power to keep a GPS radio receiver operating.
      - jsjohnst 10y ago
        Close enough for a quick reply, but it's not the "radio" using lots of power, it's the chip that's doing the signal processing. GPS signals are very weak (approximately -120dbm) and thus below the noise floor. It takes complex FFT operations that actually cause the power hungry nature to find the proverbial needle in the haystack.
cstejerean 10y ago
Apple uses wifi for positioning but only while wifi is turned on. It does not use it while wifi is turned off. It sounds like in android there is a separate setting that allows wifi scanning to happen in the background for positioning even while wifi is turned off. Not sure if that's better or worse.
yigitdemirag 10y ago
This is also not triangulation but trilateration.
formula_ninguna 10y ago
Is there open source database of geo data for wifi hotspots? Or even closed source?
- LeoPanthera 10y ago
  https://wigle.net https://wigle.net
PavlovsCat 10y ago
> Before you freak out: Apple and Microsoft also use access point information for positioning Is that supposed to comfort one, or make one freak out even more? The usage to mean the former is very.. peculiar, and the usage of the phrase "freak out" rather than, say, "before you are concerned about this and move to change it", does make it seem like that was the intended usage.

by pawadu 10y ago

pawadu 10y ago

This raises another imprtant question: Is it okay for a private company to have detailed positioning data from inside of your office or home? Who would really need that sort of information? I understand how this can be useful at the mall but I think I can find my way around my own house thank you.

deelowe 10y ago
I thought you can disable it.
mikestew 10y ago
Is it okay for a private company to have detailed positioning data from inside of your office or home? I don't know the answer to that question, but I have a guess at the answer to another question: "is it okay for a private company to create a geodatabase of SSID strings that were freely and willingly broadcast via radio?" I think the answer is "yes". Ten, fifteen years ago, if there were an HN story about how I, owner of a small business you've never heard of, created a database of SSIDs that are broadcast and tagged them with lat/longs, I'd bet money it would make the top of the front page. Bonus points if I included an API and threw the thing up on github. Fine, it's evil, append "_nomap" to your SSID string. That's fine for stopping Google, but it won't stop "owner of small business you've never heard of". Don't broad SSIDs, but then (IIRC) one can still obtain the MAC address. But in the end, if a radio broadcasts something then one has little recourse when receivers use that broadcast in ways you didn't intend. The analogy crumbles under a little scrutiny, but it's similar to FM broadcasters complain about geodatabases of FM towers because the intent of the broadcaster was to allow you to listen to drive-time hyenas, not use it for location services.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  I seriously doubt most people even know whst "broadcast" means, or that "their" wifi is not limited to their own four walls and personal use.
  - bhhaskin 10y ago
    Not knowing how it works doesn't change the fact that broadcasting the SSID is a key part of how wifi works. The only real solution is not to use wifi if you don't want it to be mapped.
  - mikestew 10y ago
    "Ignorance is no excuse"? I mean, I don't know what the solution is if that's an allowable excuse. Google has to run PSA's on how WiFi works before they're allowed to scoop up SSIDs? Additionally, I don't buy that to begin with, at least not as it concerns the majority. Where do folks think those other SSIDs (even if they don't call them that) in their list of networks come from?
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Come on. There have to be some minimum standards of knowledge required for the citizens of a technological society, and I'd argue that "how radio works" is one of those things one should be expected to know.
    - paavokoya 10y ago
      minimum standards of knowledge required for the citizens Do you know how the electricity in your wall works? What about the plumbing under your house? Would you be able to fix those things on your own?
      - DominikR 10y ago
        His argument was that you can reasonably expect people to know how to handle such technologies safely, not that he expects people to know how to build a WiFi Router from electronic parts themselves. Using your analogy it would be sufficient for a person to know how to handle electricity coming from your wall or the plumbing under your house safely. And generally people do know how to do that. Everyone who is regularly using WiFi networks knows that he/she can see the names of other WiFi networks in their vicinity. Therefore people using WiFi generally do know that this information is publicly broadcasted and available to be collected by anyone interested in doing so. No one believes that he is the only person being able to somehow magically see the name of his neighbours WiFi.
xiaoma 10y ago
~
- qntty 10y ago
  GP meant private-sector company

comboy 10y ago

Are you sure they do that when wifi is off? I was under the impression that it only happens when wifi is on (and it seems to me that my location on the map is more stable with wifi on). That would be very not ok if it would happen with wifi off. I turn my wifi off to save the battery, and it wouldn't do much if it was still looking for broadcasts.

anexprogrammer 10y ago
There's another wifi setting, in advanced I think, for "scanning always available"
sly010 10y ago
Its a question of terminology. When you are passively listening to (periodic) SSID beacons, you are not transmitting anything, nor consuming any energy on your radio. One could do that even in airplane mode. It's very different from when you hit "scan" and are actively sending broadcast packets on every frequency and waiting for the wifi routers to (actively) answer. Which really only happens when you pull down the list of nearby hotspots.
- mirashii 10y ago
  > nor consuming any energy on your radio This simply isn't true. You'll be using power to demodulate at a minimum. You'll also be using energy to ammplify the incoming signals and a variety of other things.
  - klodolph 10y ago
    Yes, this is also the reason why GPS is so power hungry--it takes a lot of power to keep a GPS radio receiver operating.
    - jsjohnst 10y ago
      Close enough for a quick reply, but it's not the "radio" using lots of power, it's the chip that's doing the signal processing. GPS signals are very weak (approximately -120dbm) and thus below the noise floor. It takes complex FFT operations that actually cause the power hungry nature to find the proverbial needle in the haystack.

cstejerean 10y ago

Apple uses wifi for positioning but only while wifi is turned on. It does not use it while wifi is turned off. It sounds like in android there is a separate setting that allows wifi scanning to happen in the background for positioning even while wifi is turned off. Not sure if that's better or worse.

yigitdemirag 10y ago

This is also not triangulation but trilateration.

formula_ninguna 10y ago

Is there open source database of geo data for wifi hotspots? Or even closed source?

LeoPanthera 10y ago
https://wigle.net https://wigle.net

PavlovsCat 10y ago

> Before you freak out: Apple and Microsoft also use access point information for positioning Is that supposed to comfort one, or make one freak out even more? The usage to mean the former is very.. peculiar, and the usage of the phrase "freak out" rather than, say, "before you are concerned about this and move to change it", does make it seem like that was the intended usage.