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How does Google know where I am?
- blackoil 10y agoIt was possible for long. Many years back my low IQ Nokia phone had no GPS or wifi but maps were pretty accurate using just feel phone tower tringulation.
- kalleboo 10y agoYep I have memories of traveling abroad using the J2ME Google Maps on my Sony Ericsson dumbphone and walking down the street and waiting for it to switch to the next tower just to see if I went in the right direction...
- whatnotests 10y agoSpies!
- deadowl 10y agocell tower triangulation.
- pawadu 10y agoThis is not tower triangulation. Android searches for access points even when wifi is turned off. If anyone (with GPS enabled) uses that wifi with any google services the bssid will end up in their database. Also if the google car has been nearby it has recorded the presence of the wifi access point at that location [1]. Before you freak out: Apple and Microsoft also use access point information for positioning, although not as successfully. [1] https://googleblog.blogspot.se/2010/05/wifi-data-collection-update.html https://googleblog.blogspot.se/2010/05/wifi-data-collection-...
- pawadu 10y agoThis raises another imprtant question: Is it okay for a private company to have detailed positioning data from inside of your office or home? Who would really need that sort of information? I understand how this can be useful at the mall but I think I can find my way around my own house thank you.
- deelowe 10y agoI thought you can disable it.
- mikestew 10y agoIs it okay for a private company to have detailed positioning data from inside of your office or home? I don't know the answer to that question, but I have a guess at the answer to another question: "is it okay for a private company to create a geodatabase of SSID strings that were freely and willingly broadcast via radio?" I think the answer is "yes". Ten, fifteen years ago, if there were an HN story about how I, owner of a small business you've never heard of, created a database of SSIDs that are broadcast and tagged them with lat/longs, I'd bet money it would make the top of the front page. Bonus points if I included an API and threw the thing up on github. Fine, it's evil, append "_nomap" to your SSID string. That's fine for stopping Google, but it won't stop "owner of small business you've never heard of". Don't broad SSIDs, but then (IIRC) one can still obtain the MAC address. But in the end, if a radio broadcasts something then one has little recourse when receivers use that broadcast in ways you didn't intend. The analogy crumbles under a little scrutiny, but it's similar to FM broadcasters complain about geodatabases of FM towers because the intent of the broadcaster was to allow you to listen to drive-time hyenas, not use it for location services.
- nitrogen 10y agoI seriously doubt most people even know whst "broadcast" means, or that "their" wifi is not limited to their own four walls and personal use.
- bhhaskin 10y agoNot knowing how it works doesn't change the fact that broadcasting the SSID is a key part of how wifi works. The only real solution is not to use wifi if you don't want it to be mapped.
- mikestew 10y ago"Ignorance is no excuse"? I mean, I don't know what the solution is if that's an allowable excuse. Google has to run PSA's on how WiFi works before they're allowed to scoop up SSIDs? Additionally, I don't buy that to begin with, at least not as it concerns the majority. Where do folks think those other SSIDs (even if they don't call them that) in their list of networks come from?
- comboy 10y agoAre you sure they do that when wifi is off? I was under the impression that it only happens when wifi is on (and it seems to me that my location on the map is more stable with wifi on). That would be very not ok if it would happen with wifi off. I turn my wifi off to save the battery, and it wouldn't do much if it was still looking for broadcasts.
- anexprogrammer 10y agoThere's another wifi setting, in advanced I think, for "scanning always available"
- sly010 10y agoIts a question of terminology. When you are passively listening to (periodic) SSID beacons, you are not transmitting anything, nor consuming any energy on your radio. One could do that even in airplane mode. It's very different from when you hit "scan" and are actively sending broadcast packets on every frequency and waiting for the wifi routers to (actively) answer. Which really only happens when you pull down the list of nearby hotspots.
- mirashii 10y ago> nor consuming any energy on your radio This simply isn't true. You'll be using power to demodulate at a minimum. You'll also be using energy to ammplify the incoming signals and a variety of other things.
- klodolph 10y agoYes, this is also the reason why GPS is so power hungry--it takes a lot of power to keep a GPS radio receiver operating.
- jsjohnst 10y agoClose enough for a quick reply, but it's not the "radio" using lots of power, it's the chip that's doing the signal processing. GPS signals are very weak (approximately -120dbm) and thus below the noise floor. It takes complex FFT operations that actually cause the power hungry nature to find the proverbial needle in the haystack.
- cstejerean 10y agoApple uses wifi for positioning but only while wifi is turned on. It does not use it while wifi is turned off. It sounds like in android there is a separate setting that allows wifi scanning to happen in the background for positioning even while wifi is turned off. Not sure if that's better or worse.
- yigitdemirag 10y agoThis is also not triangulation but trilateration.
- formula_ninguna 10y agoIs there open source database of geo data for wifi hotspots? Or even closed source?
- LeoPanthera 10y agohttps://wigle.net https://wigle.net
- PavlovsCat 10y ago> Before you freak out: Apple and Microsoft also use access point information for positioning Is that supposed to comfort one, or make one freak out even more? The usage to mean the former is very.. peculiar, and the usage of the phrase "freak out" rather than, say, "before you are concerned about this and move to change it", does make it seem like that was the intended usage.
- dogma1138 10y agoGPS for a long time haven't been used as the only source of location, to some extent it can now be considered a "2nd fiddle" to INS since solid state INS sensors are very good these days. The phone receives location information from wifi and more importantly it gets location messages from cell towers, and it uses dead reckoning[0] using it's INS sensors. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning If you want "privacy" turn off the location services, or your phone, if you want privacy don't take your phone with you. That said this isn't some "conspiracy" Google actually states when you enable background location services that this will be on all the time even when GPS and the wireless network are explicitly disabled, IIRC even in airplane mode the location background service can be operational without violating FCC regulations.
- leot 10y agoDo you have a citation on phones using inertial navigation?
- binoct 10y agoI'd also be curious to see a reference for Orientation/heading from a phone's gyroscope/compass can be pretty reasonable, but most mems accelerometers are pretty much crap for dead reckoning use when loosely attached to a person. I could definitely see some interesting ideas with cell tower position data + heading + pedometer estimation getting merged, but I have a hard time believing that works in practice.
- dogma1138 10y agoThis isn't using a "pedometer" this is fusing the input from multiple sensors like gyro, accelerometer, magnetometer, barometer etc. as well as other location data (wifi/gps/cellular/beacons etc.) and extrapolating the location using a path prediction algorithm. Given a known starting point, or a known point in general this increases both the speed and accuracy of identifying your location considerably even outdoors.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- awalGarg 10y agoFrom the comments section of the top-voted answer: > Something you didn't mention: when a Google-car goes around taking pictures for StreetView it also maps the location and all wifi networks name. So taking a new router with a new network name from a different ISP might work, but only until they come near your house to update their pictures... > - Bakuriu I am not sure how this makes me feel :-|
- wil421 10y agoYou can opt out by adding _nomap to the end of your ssid. There's another string you can add to opt out for Microsoft. https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/3g3xyu/for_wifi_ms_optout_and_google_nomap_does_anyone/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/3g3xyu/for_wifi_ms...
- dEnigma 10y agoThe string for Microsoft seems to have a different effect, one of the comments[0] says: "_optout" only gets you out of Microsoft's WiFi sharing of open networks, which allows other computers to automatically connect to your network. To opt out of Microsoft's location tracking of your router's location, you need to go to https://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/support/location-block-list https://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/support/location-block-li... and input your MAC address (BSSID). Microsoft uses the MAC address instead of WiFi name (SSID), because supposedly they don't collect WiFi names at all due to privacy concerns. [0]https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/3g3xyu/for_wifi_ms_optout_and_google_nomap_does_anyone/ctuvvwn https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/3g3xyu/for_wifi_ms...
- wil421 10y agoNice catch. I wish google did this. It it easier to put my MAC address on some list than having to change my SSID.
- RKearney 10y agoYou could create a faraday cage around your home to prevent your Wi-Fi signals from broadcasting outside your home. Otherwise I don't really see the issue with Google picking up signals from the street that people blast outside the extents of their homes.
- wil421 10y agoIf you want to stop your network from being scanned by Google street view or stop Microsoft doing whatever they do, you can add strings to your ssid. https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/3g3xyu/for_wifi_ms.. https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/3g3xyu/for_wifi_ms....
- jomamaxx 10y agoWe should not have to do that.
- gohrt 10y agoTalk to your government, or organize a boycott threat. Your house is also visible in Street View, for precisely the same reason: It transmits electromagnetic waves that are visible from public roads.
- andybak 10y agoNot mine. I've painted the whole thing with Vantablack®
- memogarcia 10y agoJust created an account to update this comment
- maxander 10y agoI'm vaguely surprised that Android phones don't let you just look around with the camera from any sidewalk and tell you where you are based on comparisons of what it sees to known street view images. That sort of capability would be quintessentially googly. And slightly less scary.
- spyder 10y agoYea, the government can stop it legally, that's why there is no Street View in Austria. In other countries you can ask Google to blur your house.
- chalana 10y agoDoes my phone have a portion of this BSSID db locally?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- tlow 10y agoPrediction.
- slim 10y agoIf I understood correctly, android downloads nearby BSSIDs with corresponding Geoposition when internet connectivity is available, to use them when no connectivity is available. It should be possible to reconstruct google's BSSID database, right?
- dev1n 10y agoI had someone from Google (young guy, summer job stuff) come into my office park and map out wi-fi points asking us if this office is still where the company I work for works at. Google has the resources to utilize HUMINT. That's how Google knows where you are. This guy said he does this in a bunch of cities, driving around the geographic area of the USA where I work in. Very interesting to learn about. Edit: I am not located anywhere near where Google has an office, so for him to stop by was interesting by itself. Edit 2: grammar.
- rasz_pl 10y agoDid he also give away promotional google pendrives by any chance? and ask for special access to the office buildings? This sounds dodgy as f. I think your office park was being pentested.
- Gracana 10y agoWifi mapping is the method by which google has no idea where I am. My roommate moved across the country and moved in with me, and android thinks I'm at his old house whenever I connect to his wifi router, even with GPS enabled, and even having installed OpenWRT and changed the ssid of the router. It's pretty maddening.
- sliverstorm 10y agoYou can switch your phone to "Device Only", to use only the actual GPS chip.
- Gracana 10y agoI have apps that ask to switch it back. They won't run without crap positioning.
- rtkwe 10y agoIt's because Google and other mapping companies use the BSSID (MAC) which doesn't change if you just change the SSID.
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- Gracana 10y agoOf course. I just wanted to point out that I changed everything that could be changed apart from buying a new router. I am at Google's mercy, they created the problem and only they can fix it.
- kalleboo 10y agoMy parents moved across continents and had the same problem. It finally fixed itself after a couple weeks/a month. This was with Apple devices though (not Google), so a different database.
- mattbgates 10y agoFacebook knows where you are too.. and your friends. Muhahahaha.
- cpeterso 10y agoMozilla built a crowd-sourced database of Wi-Fi, cell, and Bluetooth network locations, collected by volunteers running an Android "stumbler/war-driving" app. I helped start this project for Firefox OS, which is mostly defunct but the Mozilla Location Service (MLS) is still used for Firefox Nightly and DevEdition on the desktop. :-) Here is a zoomable map of the location data coverage: https://location.services.mozilla.com/map https://location.services.mozilla.com/map Mozilla exchanges the cell location data with the OpenCellID project. Mozilla's cell database is available for download here: https://location.services.mozilla.com/downloads https://location.services.mozilla.com/downloads For privacy reasons, the Wi-Fi and Bluetooth databases are not currently downloadable, but they can be queried through a web service API: https://location.services.mozilla.com/api https://location.services.mozilla.com/api
- jotux 10y agohttps://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geolocation/intro https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geolocation...
- rasz_pl 10y agojust wait for project tango rollout, inb4 "How does Google know the layout of my flat and brands I use?".
- partycoder 10y agoThis was not publicly known before. To my knowledge this Google trick was first discovered by the researcher Samy Kamkar (https://samy.pl/mapxss https://samy.pl/mapxss), though the tool no longer works. When the tool used to work, I tested it using my home router address and it accurately located me. Then, I moved to another house, and the location remained being my old home. Then, after a couple of weeks, it got updated. I think in the final product the resulting location is not only based off one WiFi address. It might try to crossvalidate using the multiple addresses you can see.
- Pica_soO 10y agoCan you trace your cellphone-to-cellphone contacts, and conclude where a User is by comparing his environment? I always imagined for fun a "underground" internet consisting of multicellular social-organism, that traffics data by handing packets over to another organism that is most likely to meet the user. In Reverse this approach could be used to trace a users propable location by finding in which social-organism s/he/it resides, and if that organism is showing its usual behaviour. (e.g. The morning Bus-To-Work always consists of a base set of workers and a set of drivers, the driver remaining constantly in it, the user has for last 2 years entered this organism at the same time and left at the same station, thus the packet can be entrusted to this organism, who will deliver it to the most likely organism the user contacted next).
- MzHN 10y agoMost geolocation methods make sense to me, but I've yet to figure out how Google knows the location of my desktop PC, both home and work PCs, with greater accuracy than just city. Neither has Wi-Fi.
- DanielBMarkham 10y agoI hate suggesting regulation, but devices should be required to have physical switches for cams, mics, and radios. The gap between what the consumer thinks their gear is doing and what it's actually doing has become far too broad.