12 ms·

Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

82 points by mattnumbe 10y ago

barpet 10y ago
I am a european and getting pissed off by these cocky austrians and germans. They are so full of themselves and keep trash talking about Tesla for so long. Yet they cannot deliver. Tesla does. Period. Also it's not only about technical superiority but experience as well. Tesla excels here.
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  I think that Europeans living in Europe really don't understand how startup work.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- raphaelj 10y ago
  Audi, BMW, Volkswagen and Peugeot all sell electric or hybrid-electric cars.
  - dabeeeenster 10y ago
    And they are all either: A: Hugely overpriced plug in hybrids B: Have pathetic range
    - raphaelj 10y ago
      And everybody knows that Model S is not an expensive car.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        Yes, but it's fully electric, not an hybrid with a tiny all-electric range.
      - martin_bech 10y ago
        For the performance and features, it is in no way expensive. The P100DL beats a Lamborghini Huracan off the line up to 100mph+ at a fraction of the cost. Disclosure I own a Models S 85D.
        fabrice_d 10y ago
        Sure, but you're not gonna do a race lap at full speed with a Tesla. These 0 to 100 numbers don't tell the full performance story at all.
        greglindahl 10y ago
        I don't know what country you're from, but in the US there are a lot of people who obsess about straight-line drag racing. For example, in the Fast and Furious movies, while they drive cars in all kinds of ways, the obsession is about a "10 second car", which is a straight-line 1/4 mile measurement. Also in the US, there's an even larger group of car buyers who will never drag race their cars, but like knowing that the car they just bought is excellent in some way.
  - denzil_correa 10y ago
    How do these electric cars compare against Tesla?
    - Brakenshire 10y ago
      The i3 appears to be a really well designed car. It costs about $7000 more than the model 3, but it already exists. And they've just increased the battery capacity 50%, so the nominal range is 200 miles, or 275 with the range extender. I just read BMW think they can double that by 2020. Tesla certainly has at least some competition.
      - kangman 10y ago
        Not a fan of the design though. I'm sure it's functional but to my eyes it looks more frankencar than daily driver.
        antoniuschan99 10y ago
        only other one that looks decent is the e-golf and focus. but not a fan of hatchbacks
        Reason077 10y ago
        I think the i3 is one of the coolest looking small cars around. It is distinctive, and the designers clearly made a choice to go for a design that would get noticed. I do think it looks better in all-black, rather than the two-tone colors. It's easily one of the most popular EVs here in the UK (along with the Tesla, Renault Zoe, and Nissan Leaf). Very nice to drive with a stylish, comfortable, minimalist, premium-quality interior. BMW's software does let it down, though - at least when compared to a Tesla. But still, i'd argue if you want an EV and can't afford a Tesla, it's the best option available right now (at least until the Bolt is released).
      - nradov 10y ago
        No, for the latest i3 BMW only claims a range of 114 miles. https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0259560EN_US/the-new-2017-bmw-i3-94-ah-:-more-range-paired-to-high-level-dynamic-performance?language=en_US https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0259560EN...
  - rsync 10y ago
    "Audi, BMW, Volkswagen and Peugeot all sell electric or hybrid-electric cars." Audi has a A3-etron which is not an electric car. Maybe they have some $500k etron-R8 but I am not sure if they ever built that. BMW has the i3 which is kind of interesting, in a low-production-run, dip-your-toe-in-the-market kind of way. i8 is not an electric car. Some hybrids. Who cares. Volkswagen has the e-golf which, in a sense, is more progress than the others since it's an actual VM car that actual people buy and is actually electric. It's not a car I would buy, but again - it's not a cutesy test market car and it's not a half-assed hybrid, so kudos to VW. I don't know anything about Peugeot. Probably hybrids so who cares. In conclusion: We're in the same place we've been for 9-12 years: CEO of Audi/BMW/Porsche/Merc announce a major electric car initiative with consumer models (6 years from now) and a sexy concept car at a trade show. Then nothing happens. Then three years later, repeat. Over and over and over.
    - __michaelg 10y ago
      > I don't know anything about Peugeot. Probably hybrids so who cares. YTD in Germany, Renault sold twice as many purely electric cars (1836 Zoes) as Tesla (978 Model S and 56 Model X.) Source: https://www.goingelectric.de/zulassungszahlen/2016/ https://www.goingelectric.de/zulassungszahlen/2016/ (in German only, sorry; data is coming from Germany's DOT)
      - Reason077 10y ago
        He was probably thinking of Renault, not Peugeot. The Renault Zoe is one of the most popular EVs in Europe. (Why? It looks cool, drives well, and it's cheap!) I don't think Peugeot have done anything much notable in EVs recently.
- dabeeeenster 10y ago
  Completely agree (I'm also European). When Porsche unveiled the Mission E, they made spec comparisons to the Tesla Model S. But the Mission E is a concept, slated for 2020! VW/Audi, Porsche, BMW and Mercedes need to take a long hard look at themselves. The market is changing way faster than they expected IMO. Just sell a bloody 250 mile range car I can buy for £25k. That's it. It's not hard. Do it, now. Not in 3 years. Now.
  - zyx321 10y ago
    >It's not hard. If it's so easy why don't you do it? Let me guess, you've never designed, built, or shipped any physical product. You're like a first-year art student 'designing' the next iPhone in a 3D rendering program (Half as thick, with twice the battery life! Indestructible edge-to-edge screen!)
    - alimbada 10y ago
      It's not hard for existing car manufacturers...
    - 0xFFC 10y ago
      I see what you are saying and I partially agree with it. But the point is Audi,BMW,etc they are not first year art student. They have billion dollar R&D budget. Update: And keep in mind Tesla is not product of yesterday. Vibe for electronic car was around I think much longer than Tesla.But big names (Audi,BMW,etc) just ignored it for so long (maybe because of no serious competitor or corruptness -why do they need to work on something revolutionary when they are market leaders) until some guy stepped in and challeged them seriously.
      - zyx321 10y ago
        And they evidently are working on it. But to say "release it now, don't make me wait 5 years" is beyond ignorant.
        nervousvarun 10y ago
- Maarten88 10y ago
  Agree. I think an underestimated advantage Tesla has over the traditional car makers is their software process. Tesla just released version 8, and rolled it out to all their customers. Traditional manufacturers must recall cars to fix a software problem, and charge customers for software upgrades. I guess it's hard for traditional car manufacturers to offer an integrated experience like that, you need to design a car from the ground up (including the software that's running in components from suppliers, like batteries) for that.
  - reacweb 10y ago
    Yes. All the stories I ear about software developed by traditional car makers confirm your point. Traditional car makers produce very bad software and have very bad organisation for software development.
    - steejk 10y ago
      To a certain extent, this comes from historically creating safety-critical software which is an entirely different process compared to what is done for web apps etc. I don't think Tesla are as robust with their development processes, but they are able to make up for it with over-the-air updates.
      - reacweb 10y ago
        I have worked for nuclear domain and for aeronautical domain. These are domains where safety critical software is understood. AFAIK, software is not understood in car industry. It looks like they compensate poor programming by more testing.
    - nojvek 10y ago
      You should see Toyota entune. New RAV4 SE, awesome car, tons of safety and sensors. Garbage software. I think car makes just don't realize how big of a role, great software plays in how you feel about a car.
  - valuegram 10y ago
- rottyguy 10y ago
  Their exit strategy is probably much like Jet so you can't really blame them.
- sljkdjaldjo 10y ago
  Look at it from a different angle: They have invested billions in 'traditional' combustion engines, gear-boxes etc. They are earning billions with that technology. Now image a board meeting and you are the guy asking for all the R&D money such that you cannibalise the cash cow. They don't target early adopters but the mass market and that's not where you/we want it to be. I believe that's the reason why their A engineers still work on the 'old' stuff.
  - nwah1 10y ago
    That's the classic "Innovator's Dilemma."
- agumonkey 10y ago
  I've heard German brands mock the self driving marketing, seen as irresponsible to them, not the vehicle engineering side. But I may be wrong.
xgbi 10y ago
> The Austrian company says its patented laser-welding and thermal-cooling techniques give them an edge over Tesla because the method preserves the full power of the lithium-ion cells. This is what they say their advantage is against tesla. So be it, but I doubt it is revolutionnary. More importantly, Kreiser, as far as the article explains, doesn't build entire cars. They sell drivetrains and battery packages. This is completely different, Tesla has a way bigger scope.
- koonsolo 10y ago
  They don't have to build entire cars, because there are plenty of good car builders in Europe (which already seem to be their customers) Tesla now has an edge on the technology front, but once the traditional European brands pick up, with technology that is better than Tesla (as assumed in the article), the question is if Tesla can keep it's market position. (This is in my opinion the main idea of the article) I agree that the European brands came way too late into the game, and Tesla was clever enough to recognize this weak spot. But once Tesla starts building cheaper cars, will those who spend $70.000 on a car buy the "average" Tesla or a Mercedes, BMW or Porsche? Don't get me wrong, I really admire Tesla for how much market share they were able to get in such a short period of time. Definitely well deserved and visionary! But it's indeed a question how this market will evolve further. This Austrian company might have an impact on it.
  - Swizec 10y ago
    The way auto industry has been going in recent decades, the most probable outcome is that Tesla merges with one of the main 10 vehicle manufacturing groups. Yes there are only 10 real players on the market. Toyota already owns 10% of Tesla. source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#Top_vehicle_manufacturing_groups_by_volume https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#Top_vehicl...
    - yabatopia 10y ago
      And yet in the article Kreisel Electric GmbH claims it’s fielding 20 inquiries a day from automotive icons including BMW and Volkswagen. I guess their phones remain silent for the four remaining days in a week.
mtgx 10y ago
> As orders grow, Kreisel anticipates a steep drop in battery prices, from about $140 a kilowatt hour now to less than $100 a kilowatt-hour. > “The sales price today for large volumes over 100,000 cars would already be under $100,” said Kreisel, who buys cells from vendors including Panasonic Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co. “Unfortunately, nobody’s making 100,000 cars today.” Is that true? Are batteries already approaching the $100/KWh mark? If so that's happening even faster than I expected, and I was one of the "optimists" for this.
macns 10y ago
Elon Musk when asked what he things about a specific BMW concept car (hubrid or full electric I can't really remember), said that it was a step towards the right direction. So I guess this too is a step closer to a cleaner earth. What bugs me though is the mentality of some big automakers or even nations, they seem to be making steps to compete with tesla to put it in a polite way. They're missing the whole point of going electric; I'm not implying that Tesla does not, but they sure do look better in marketing terms - to my eyes.
- scribu 10y ago
  What exactly is "the whole point of going electric" that even Tesla is missing?
  - lucideer 10y ago
    He didn't say Tesla is missing the point, he said they are at least getting the point in marketing terms. That is, that the switch away from fossil fuels is bigger than stories about petty details of industry competition, it's about the environment, and about orchestrating a radical shift in driving culture in general. Musk markets Tesla as changing the world, while their competitors market themselves as... competitors. The scope is much less ambitious.
    - macns 10y ago
      That's exactly what I was trying to say thank you. I'm not a native english speaker so I'm struggling with the right choice of words and overall sentence structure which often confuses others.
- xiphias 10y ago
  I totally agree with you. This is good enough reason for me to give my money to Tesla even if a competitor is a little bit better on paper. But right now they can compete only on price (which BMW and Audi probably don't want).
fitzwatermellow 10y ago
Article is indicative of the constant refrain in the business press for a $TSLA short narrative: The 4 Horsemen Of A Teslapocalypse http://seekingalpha.com/article/4007849-4-horsemen-teslapocalypse http://seekingalpha.com/article/4007849-4-horsemen-teslapoca...
- dharma1 10y ago
  It's all about timing, though. http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2016/09/22/teslas-short-sellers-are-paying-through-the-nose/ http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2016/09/22/teslas-short-selle...
rebootthesystem 10y ago
> Working out of a three-door garage Enough said. Nothing against garage startups. I started all my businesses in my garage. But if you are going to go out there and claim to "take on" a market leader you need to exist at a different physical, organizational, technological and financial scale.
mdorazio 10y ago
As someone who invested in and got burned by A123 Systems a few years ago, I'll believe these guys are a legitimate company to watch when their battery packs are actually in a large number of cars for a few years without defects. Making LiOn batteries reliable enough for vehicles is harder than most people think, especially when you need extensive QA at scale.
- dorito_chimp 10y ago
  I'm sure you know how much harder it is than a bunch of electrical and mechanical engineers who've been working on it for years. No doubt you're qualified to make such a statement because your expertise and experience in electrical systems and manufacturing trumps theirs. Probably you didn't read the whole article but their batteries have already been in at least one production vehicle for a couple years now (the porsche panamera plug-in). This is the kind of hn comment that I really hate. "Extensive QA at scale". What does that even mean? *Update: Downvote away! I guess my comment is not HNy enough i.e using big impressive sounding terms like 'extensive QA at scale' to make knowing comments about things I really have no experience with.
  - drcross 10y ago
    I don't need to be a film maker to critique a film. OP makes no claims of his/her superior engineering skills, only provides typical concerns that people have.
    - dorito_chimp 10y ago
      That is a totally false equivalence. You need to be a film maker to make a statement like "shooting film on medium format is so much harder than people think". Especially when you're armchair critiquing a professional film maker who shoots with it every day.
  - mdorazio 10y ago
    I made no claim of the type you're implying, although I do work in the automotive industry. My comment was strictly related to history - A123 Systems was also a company of electrical and mechanical engineers attempting pretty much the same thing, and they failed nonetheless (you can look up the history if you're curious). My point was that technical expertise is insufficient on its own to guarantee success in areas like this where a minor manufacturing defect can brick cars or light them on fire months after they leave the factory. That's what extensive QA at scale means - every single battery that gets sold has to be extensively checked for performance and safety or else you get Galaxy Note 7 or A123... again.
desireco42 10y ago
Look, it takes some guts of this journalists to come up with titles like this and writing articles. I wish all this electric cars best of success, but 'taking on Tesla', this is not some small irrelevant company, let's be real here. Tesla is leaps and bounds ahead of everyone, not only with having electric car, but also this car is like from future.
- fma 10y ago
  TSLA produces 2,000 per week. GM produces close to 10 million cars per year. Calculating that out, it's 192307 per week...almost 100x. TSLA isn't irrelevant, but definitely small. BTW GM is selling a mass produced 100% electric vehicle. You can have one in your driveway before the end of the year. $30k after tax incentive, 255 miles per charge (more than Tesla Model 3) http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/21/chevy-bolt-goes-255-miles-in-the-city/ http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/21/chevy-bolt-goes-255-miles... https://electrek.co/2016/06/13/tesla-production-rate-2000-cars-week/ https://electrek.co/2016/06/13/tesla-production-rate-2000-ca... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors
  - desireco42 10y ago
    I can have Tesla in my driveway tomorrow if I buy one. Tesla dominates luxury category, GM has a lot of catching up to do. Also, it is not just that it is electric car, have you been in one, it is like from the future. No other car is like that.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

82 points by mattnumbe 10y ago

I am a european and getting pissed off by these cocky austrians and germans. They are so full of themselves and keep trash talking about Tesla for so long. Yet they cannot deliver. Tesla does. Period. Also it's not only about technical superiority but experience as well. Tesla excels here.

adamnemecek 10y ago
I think that Europeans living in Europe really don't understand how startup work.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
raphaelj 10y ago
Audi, BMW, Volkswagen and Peugeot all sell electric or hybrid-electric cars.
- dabeeeenster 10y ago
  And they are all either: A: Hugely overpriced plug in hybrids B: Have pathetic range
  - raphaelj 10y ago
    And everybody knows that Model S is not an expensive car.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      Yes, but it's fully electric, not an hybrid with a tiny all-electric range.
    - martin_bech 10y ago
      For the performance and features, it is in no way expensive. The P100DL beats a Lamborghini Huracan off the line up to 100mph+ at a fraction of the cost. Disclosure I own a Models S 85D.
      - fabrice_d 10y ago
        Sure, but you're not gonna do a race lap at full speed with a Tesla. These 0 to 100 numbers don't tell the full performance story at all.
        greglindahl 10y ago
        I don't know what country you're from, but in the US there are a lot of people who obsess about straight-line drag racing. For example, in the Fast and Furious movies, while they drive cars in all kinds of ways, the obsession is about a "10 second car", which is a straight-line 1/4 mile measurement. Also in the US, there's an even larger group of car buyers who will never drag race their cars, but like knowing that the car they just bought is excellent in some way.
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  How do these electric cars compare against Tesla?
  - Brakenshire 10y ago
    The i3 appears to be a really well designed car. It costs about $7000 more than the model 3, but it already exists. And they've just increased the battery capacity 50%, so the nominal range is 200 miles, or 275 with the range extender. I just read BMW think they can double that by 2020. Tesla certainly has at least some competition.
    - kangman 10y ago
      Not a fan of the design though. I'm sure it's functional but to my eyes it looks more frankencar than daily driver.
      - antoniuschan99 10y ago
        only other one that looks decent is the e-golf and focus. but not a fan of hatchbacks
      - Reason077 10y ago
        I think the i3 is one of the coolest looking small cars around. It is distinctive, and the designers clearly made a choice to go for a design that would get noticed. I do think it looks better in all-black, rather than the two-tone colors. It's easily one of the most popular EVs here in the UK (along with the Tesla, Renault Zoe, and Nissan Leaf). Very nice to drive with a stylish, comfortable, minimalist, premium-quality interior. BMW's software does let it down, though - at least when compared to a Tesla. But still, i'd argue if you want an EV and can't afford a Tesla, it's the best option available right now (at least until the Bolt is released).
    - nradov 10y ago
      No, for the latest i3 BMW only claims a range of 114 miles. https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0259560EN_US/the-new-2017-bmw-i3-94-ah-:-more-range-paired-to-high-level-dynamic-performance?language=en_US https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0259560EN...
- rsync 10y ago
  "Audi, BMW, Volkswagen and Peugeot all sell electric or hybrid-electric cars." Audi has a A3-etron which is not an electric car. Maybe they have some $500k etron-R8 but I am not sure if they ever built that. BMW has the i3 which is kind of interesting, in a low-production-run, dip-your-toe-in-the-market kind of way. i8 is not an electric car. Some hybrids. Who cares. Volkswagen has the e-golf which, in a sense, is more progress than the others since it's an actual VM car that actual people buy and is actually electric. It's not a car I would buy, but again - it's not a cutesy test market car and it's not a half-assed hybrid, so kudos to VW. I don't know anything about Peugeot. Probably hybrids so who cares. In conclusion: We're in the same place we've been for 9-12 years: CEO of Audi/BMW/Porsche/Merc announce a major electric car initiative with consumer models (6 years from now) and a sexy concept car at a trade show. Then nothing happens. Then three years later, repeat. Over and over and over.
  - __michaelg 10y ago
    > I don't know anything about Peugeot. Probably hybrids so who cares. YTD in Germany, Renault sold twice as many purely electric cars (1836 Zoes) as Tesla (978 Model S and 56 Model X.) Source: https://www.goingelectric.de/zulassungszahlen/2016/ https://www.goingelectric.de/zulassungszahlen/2016/ (in German only, sorry; data is coming from Germany's DOT)
    - Reason077 10y ago
      He was probably thinking of Renault, not Peugeot. The Renault Zoe is one of the most popular EVs in Europe. (Why? It looks cool, drives well, and it's cheap!) I don't think Peugeot have done anything much notable in EVs recently.
dabeeeenster 10y ago
Completely agree (I'm also European). When Porsche unveiled the Mission E, they made spec comparisons to the Tesla Model S. But the Mission E is a concept, slated for 2020! VW/Audi, Porsche, BMW and Mercedes need to take a long hard look at themselves. The market is changing way faster than they expected IMO. Just sell a bloody 250 mile range car I can buy for £25k. That's it. It's not hard. Do it, now. Not in 3 years. Now.
- zyx321 10y ago
  >It's not hard. If it's so easy why don't you do it? Let me guess, you've never designed, built, or shipped any physical product. You're like a first-year art student 'designing' the next iPhone in a 3D rendering program (Half as thick, with twice the battery life! Indestructible edge-to-edge screen!)
  - alimbada 10y ago
    It's not hard for existing car manufacturers...
  - 0xFFC 10y ago
    I see what you are saying and I partially agree with it. But the point is Audi,BMW,etc they are not first year art student. They have billion dollar R&D budget. Update: And keep in mind Tesla is not product of yesterday. Vibe for electronic car was around I think much longer than Tesla.But big names (Audi,BMW,etc) just ignored it for so long (maybe because of no serious competitor or corruptness -why do they need to work on something revolutionary when they are market leaders) until some guy stepped in and challeged them seriously.
    - zyx321 10y ago
      And they evidently are working on it. But to say "release it now, don't make me wait 5 years" is beyond ignorant.
      - nervousvarun 10y ago
Maarten88 10y ago
Agree. I think an underestimated advantage Tesla has over the traditional car makers is their software process. Tesla just released version 8, and rolled it out to all their customers. Traditional manufacturers must recall cars to fix a software problem, and charge customers for software upgrades. I guess it's hard for traditional car manufacturers to offer an integrated experience like that, you need to design a car from the ground up (including the software that's running in components from suppliers, like batteries) for that.
- reacweb 10y ago
  Yes. All the stories I ear about software developed by traditional car makers confirm your point. Traditional car makers produce very bad software and have very bad organisation for software development.
  - steejk 10y ago
    To a certain extent, this comes from historically creating safety-critical software which is an entirely different process compared to what is done for web apps etc. I don't think Tesla are as robust with their development processes, but they are able to make up for it with over-the-air updates.
    - reacweb 10y ago
      I have worked for nuclear domain and for aeronautical domain. These are domains where safety critical software is understood. AFAIK, software is not understood in car industry. It looks like they compensate poor programming by more testing.
  - nojvek 10y ago
    You should see Toyota entune. New RAV4 SE, awesome car, tons of safety and sensors. Garbage software. I think car makes just don't realize how big of a role, great software plays in how you feel about a car.
- valuegram 10y ago
rottyguy 10y ago
Their exit strategy is probably much like Jet so you can't really blame them.
sljkdjaldjo 10y ago
Look at it from a different angle: They have invested billions in 'traditional' combustion engines, gear-boxes etc. They are earning billions with that technology. Now image a board meeting and you are the guy asking for all the R&D money such that you cannibalise the cash cow. They don't target early adopters but the mass market and that's not where you/we want it to be. I believe that's the reason why their A engineers still work on the 'old' stuff.
- nwah1 10y ago
  That's the classic "Innovator's Dilemma."
agumonkey 10y ago
I've heard German brands mock the self driving marketing, seen as irresponsible to them, not the vehicle engineering side. But I may be wrong.

xgbi 10y ago

> The Austrian company says its patented laser-welding and thermal-cooling techniques give them an edge over Tesla because the method preserves the full power of the lithium-ion cells. This is what they say their advantage is against tesla. So be it, but I doubt it is revolutionnary. More importantly, Kreiser, as far as the article explains, doesn't build entire cars. They sell drivetrains and battery packages. This is completely different, Tesla has a way bigger scope.

koonsolo 10y ago
They don't have to build entire cars, because there are plenty of good car builders in Europe (which already seem to be their customers) Tesla now has an edge on the technology front, but once the traditional European brands pick up, with technology that is better than Tesla (as assumed in the article), the question is if Tesla can keep it's market position. (This is in my opinion the main idea of the article) I agree that the European brands came way too late into the game, and Tesla was clever enough to recognize this weak spot. But once Tesla starts building cheaper cars, will those who spend $70.000 on a car buy the "average" Tesla or a Mercedes, BMW or Porsche? Don't get me wrong, I really admire Tesla for how much market share they were able to get in such a short period of time. Definitely well deserved and visionary! But it's indeed a question how this market will evolve further. This Austrian company might have an impact on it.
- Swizec 10y ago
  The way auto industry has been going in recent decades, the most probable outcome is that Tesla merges with one of the main 10 vehicle manufacturing groups. Yes there are only 10 real players on the market. Toyota already owns 10% of Tesla. source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#Top_vehicle_manufacturing_groups_by_volume https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#Top_vehicl...
  - yabatopia 10y ago
    And yet in the article Kreisel Electric GmbH claims it’s fielding 20 inquiries a day from automotive icons including BMW and Volkswagen. I guess their phones remain silent for the four remaining days in a week.

mtgx 10y ago

> As orders grow, Kreisel anticipates a steep drop in battery prices, from about $140 a kilowatt hour now to less than $100 a kilowatt-hour. > “The sales price today for large volumes over 100,000 cars would already be under $100,” said Kreisel, who buys cells from vendors including Panasonic Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co. “Unfortunately, nobody’s making 100,000 cars today.” Is that true? Are batteries already approaching the $100/KWh mark? If so that's happening even faster than I expected, and I was one of the "optimists" for this.

macns 10y ago

Elon Musk when asked what he things about a specific BMW concept car (hubrid or full electric I can't really remember), said that it was a step towards the right direction. So I guess this too is a step closer to a cleaner earth. What bugs me though is the mentality of some big automakers or even nations, they seem to be making steps to compete with tesla to put it in a polite way. They're missing the whole point of going electric; I'm not implying that Tesla does not, but they sure do look better in marketing terms - to my eyes.

scribu 10y ago
What exactly is "the whole point of going electric" that even Tesla is missing?
- lucideer 10y ago
  He didn't say Tesla is missing the point, he said they are at least getting the point in marketing terms. That is, that the switch away from fossil fuels is bigger than stories about petty details of industry competition, it's about the environment, and about orchestrating a radical shift in driving culture in general. Musk markets Tesla as changing the world, while their competitors market themselves as... competitors. The scope is much less ambitious.
  - macns 10y ago
    That's exactly what I was trying to say thank you. I'm not a native english speaker so I'm struggling with the right choice of words and overall sentence structure which often confuses others.
xiphias 10y ago
I totally agree with you. This is good enough reason for me to give my money to Tesla even if a competitor is a little bit better on paper. But right now they can compete only on price (which BMW and Audi probably don't want).

fitzwatermellow 10y ago

Article is indicative of the constant refrain in the business press for a $TSLA short narrative: The 4 Horsemen Of A Teslapocalypse http://seekingalpha.com/article/4007849-4-horsemen-teslapocalypse http://seekingalpha.com/article/4007849-4-horsemen-teslapoca...

dharma1 10y ago
It's all about timing, though. http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2016/09/22/teslas-short-sellers-are-paying-through-the-nose/ http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2016/09/22/teslas-short-selle...

rebootthesystem 10y ago

> Working out of a three-door garage Enough said. Nothing against garage startups. I started all my businesses in my garage. But if you are going to go out there and claim to "take on" a market leader you need to exist at a different physical, organizational, technological and financial scale.

mdorazio 10y ago

As someone who invested in and got burned by A123 Systems a few years ago, I'll believe these guys are a legitimate company to watch when their battery packs are actually in a large number of cars for a few years without defects. Making LiOn batteries reliable enough for vehicles is harder than most people think, especially when you need extensive QA at scale.

dorito_chimp 10y ago
I'm sure you know how much harder it is than a bunch of electrical and mechanical engineers who've been working on it for years. No doubt you're qualified to make such a statement because your expertise and experience in electrical systems and manufacturing trumps theirs. Probably you didn't read the whole article but their batteries have already been in at least one production vehicle for a couple years now (the porsche panamera plug-in). This is the kind of hn comment that I really hate. "Extensive QA at scale". What does that even mean? *Update: Downvote away! I guess my comment is not HNy enough i.e using big impressive sounding terms like 'extensive QA at scale' to make knowing comments about things I really have no experience with.
- drcross 10y ago
  I don't need to be a film maker to critique a film. OP makes no claims of his/her superior engineering skills, only provides typical concerns that people have.
  - dorito_chimp 10y ago
    That is a totally false equivalence. You need to be a film maker to make a statement like "shooting film on medium format is so much harder than people think". Especially when you're armchair critiquing a professional film maker who shoots with it every day.
- mdorazio 10y ago
  I made no claim of the type you're implying, although I do work in the automotive industry. My comment was strictly related to history - A123 Systems was also a company of electrical and mechanical engineers attempting pretty much the same thing, and they failed nonetheless (you can look up the history if you're curious). My point was that technical expertise is insufficient on its own to guarantee success in areas like this where a minor manufacturing defect can brick cars or light them on fire months after they leave the factory. That's what extensive QA at scale means - every single battery that gets sold has to be extensively checked for performance and safety or else you get Galaxy Note 7 or A123... again.

desireco42 10y ago

Look, it takes some guts of this journalists to come up with titles like this and writing articles. I wish all this electric cars best of success, but 'taking on Tesla', this is not some small irrelevant company, let's be real here. Tesla is leaps and bounds ahead of everyone, not only with having electric car, but also this car is like from future.

fma 10y ago
TSLA produces 2,000 per week. GM produces close to 10 million cars per year. Calculating that out, it's 192307 per week...almost 100x. TSLA isn't irrelevant, but definitely small. BTW GM is selling a mass produced 100% electric vehicle. You can have one in your driveway before the end of the year. $30k after tax incentive, 255 miles per charge (more than Tesla Model 3) http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/21/chevy-bolt-goes-255-miles-in-the-city/ http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/21/chevy-bolt-goes-255-miles... https://electrek.co/2016/06/13/tesla-production-rate-2000-cars-week/ https://electrek.co/2016/06/13/tesla-production-rate-2000-ca... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors
- desireco42 10y ago
  I can have Tesla in my driveway tomorrow if I buy one. Tesla dominates luxury category, GM has a lot of catching up to do. Also, it is not just that it is electric car, have you been in one, it is like from the future. No other car is like that.
- deleted 10y ago
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