6 ms·

So, there's no new features that anybody asked for, save the clipboard thing, which has unfortunate security implications, and there's a ton of nonsense none of

So, there's no new features that anybody asked for, save the clipboard thing, which has unfortunate security implications, and there's a ton of nonsense none of us will ever use, as the Mac platform gets increasingly complex ("the computer for the rest of us" is now anything but), moves away from Unix compatability, and doesn't do anything useful with this additional complexity, but does cause emacs to crash. I'd wait until they stabilize it a bit before upgrading. Or just don't upgrade.

h1d 10y ago
Funny I don't particularly find anything interesting after Snow Leopard. After Jobs left, they decided not to decide on anything and just sit on what was already there. At least they're free. Perhaps the most interesting thing these days is what kind of new name they come up with. It seems to only break apps.
- pfranz 10y ago
  Feel free to continue using Snow Leopard if you're happy with it. Here are a few things I've liked in subsequent releases (sorry if some are actually in Snow Leopard and I forgot): * Notifications * Air Drop * Face Time * Native Full Screen apps * Multi-touch gestures (mostly use with multi-desktop and fullscreen apps) * Mac App Store (I like it better for OS updates) * Recovery Partition * App Resume * Terminal improvements (I stopped using iTerm) * Air Play mirroring * Notes (and syncing with phone) * Compressed memory * Full Disk encryption * Improved multi-monitor support * Spotlight improvements A few things I'm looking forward to when I do upgrade my hardware: * updating while asleep * hi dpi monitor support
  - h1d 10y ago
    Maybe it upset you but apparently keep using Snow Leopard would not let me use any of the recent third party apps and it is totally useless to do so now. - Notifications : Had Growl, nothing new. - Air drop : Perhaps but personally in no need. - Native fullscreen : This is crazy. I turn iTunes fullscreen on secondary display and somehow it blacks out the primary screen for no good reason. Never using this feature. - Multi touch gesture : Customizability is a joke. BetterTouchTools is what is keeping my sanity by applying custom trackpad gestures. - Mac app store : Apparently this is big. - Recovery partition : One of the great invention was network recovery but not like I use it often at all. - Terminal : It was ok back then. Perhaps better if you say so. I do use SSH all the time. Never needed third party terminal. - Air play mirroring : Don't have experience. - Notes : Calendars, notes, reminders, stickies... What's coming next for note taking app? It's just cluttering my app folder. - Compressed memory : Sorry I don't know what this is. Does this help you daily? - Full disk encryption : Important feature. - Multi monitor support : It was fine back then. As said above, part of it is a joke now. - Spotlight : Maybe. I keep my files and mails all tidy, so I don't need a search helper. I mean, Leopard brought Time Machine, grid view folder display from dock, quick look just to remember from top of my head which are all vastly useful and Snow leopard perfected it by making it lighter than previous OS. And today they boast they added like 100 new stuff which almost doesn't matter and I doubt things ever get lighter than previous OS these days. Ever since they thought merging iOS feature into OSX was a good idea, it keeps adding useless pieces and they call it the best release ever. Back then I thought Windows had tons of crapware on newly bought machine but funnily lately OSX is almost a victim of that from the vendor itself... I love using OSX because of high quality third party apps. And in my opinion frankly Windows is still far worse. And for OSX naming... I thought Apple is an international company. Tiger, Leopard etc was easy to read and understand as a word for us foreigners and now what? El capitan? I must think their vision is just getting narrower naming a OS to some local name they thought was cool.
    - sdkmvx 10y ago
      > And for OSX naming... I thought Apple is an international company. Tiger, Leopard etc was easy to read and understand as a word for us foreigners and now what? El capitan? I must think their vision is just getting narrower naming a OS to some local name they thought was cool. It's not just foreigners. Even us on the opposite side of the United States have no idea what El Capitan or Maverick is or means.
    - pfranz 10y ago
      > Maybe it upset you I only said that because I didn't want my comment to come off as goading you into upgrading for the sake of it. I know a bunch of people using older versions of software and are very happy doing so. I was just pointing out a few things off the top of my head I've liked in newer versions in case you weren't familiar with them. Many of them were better integrations with things like iPhone and AppleTV, which might not apply to many people. a few sporadic replies: * Notifications: very few things apps supported growl and I like the integrated implementation better. Growl also started charging money, which is fine, but yet another thing to juggle licensing and that friction drove me away. * multi-monitor: People complained about multi-monitor handling in OSX /a lot/ until the last few years. I haven't heard of any problems recently (maybe I've missed it). I don't deal with it that much, but I still have problems with Windows and Linux...dialog boxes popping up straddling two windows, for example. * Native fullscreen: Fullscreen API was added in 10.7, then changed in 10.8 and again in 10.9. It sounds like because of a limitation at the time of the initial implementation it was integrated with Spaces which blanked out the second monitor. If I remember, there was an option to have each screen use separate "Spaces" to avoid this and in recent version it works out of the box. I think some apps like VLC or iTerm still use their own fullscreen implementation--but now all apps can be fullscreened without developer intervention. I just pointed it out because as it exists today, it's a new feature like to use. * Compressed memory: compresses RAM when it can. Improves performance on lower-end hardware. I don't know about this specifically, but I've seen this kind of thing actually increase performance where i/o is more of a bottleneck than compressing. * Spotlight: I rarely use it for file search (that in itself hasn't changed since SL), but I use it all the time as an app launcher and calculator. My beef with Windows crapware was always applications that run on boot, or something that would throw pop up notices after they expire in 30 days. OSX has always had a bunch of application I never use: Automator, Calculator, Chess, Dictionary... just hide them, delete them, or ignore them. The reason your new applications require new versions of the OS is because the frameworks got better. If new versions of the OS were just adding new applications you don't use, then people would still write their applications with the older, better APIs.
rch 10y ago
You'll be more or less forced to upgrade at some point. Chrome, Slack, and pretty much everything else stopped supporting 10.8 this year. Even CLI apps like Keybase refuse to run.
- baldfat 10y ago
  AS an outsider looking in. What is holding a developer from moving to Linux? I don't understand the draw of OS X for developers especially the past few years. These yearly updates seem to break everyone's workflow for a while.
  - mackey 10y ago
    This has gotten better since they started public betas. It seems like people that work on developer tools are more prepared.
  - rch 10y ago
    I've been actively looking for a MBP-quality laptop that shows up on my doorstep running Fedora for about 2 years, but at this point all I'd need is a significant uptick in hardware to justify starting fresh. I'd also point out how frustrating it is that Linux laptops tend to be on the cheap side (on par with a 13" Air), or generally massive, plastic, and loud.
    - nimbleDT 10y ago
      I have both the latest Dell XPS 13 and the Dell XPS 15, either of which would meet your requirements.
      - rch 10y ago
        Possibly... Do you have Fedora running on the 15? ...not required, just curious.
        nimbleDT 10y ago
gok 10y ago
Moves away from Unix compatibility?
k2enemy 10y ago
Yep, I'm already planning my eventual switch to full time linux. In previous releases there has been at least one thing I look forward to, but this one has nothing. Just features that I would rather not have included. I was recalling the other day that I switched from Windows to Mac as my primary operating system because Windows kept popping up notifications for things I didn't need to see. Now OS X is doing the same thing with all the automatic update notifications that need user input to dismiss.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  Mac has a larger binary footprint, but Linux has Wine, which helps with that a lot. But I've been linux-only for years.
zeveb 10y ago
You could always upgrade to Linux. Debian + stumpwm + emacs + Firefox: why use anything else?
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  Well, Macs have a larger software base: If you want a Unix with app support, and Wine won't cut it, OS X does a neat job. But I'm running Arch myself, so I'm not one to talk.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Debian + stumpwm + emacs + Firefox: why use anything else? Because it's 2016? What about multimedia? Or an IDE? Or my proprietary apps like Photoshop and Premiere?
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    PS works surprisingly well in Wine, but that I could understand. Emacs works better than any IDE. Your browser is usually good enough for multimedia unless you're talking about creating it.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >Emacs works better than any IDE. In the immortal words of Jeffrey Lebowski: Well, that's like, your opinion, man. Good IDEs like IntelliJ and VS have so much better integration for given languages that only result in ad-hoc, ho-hum solutions in Emacs (if one can suffer the millions of key bindings). >Your browser is usually good enough for multimedia unless you're talking about creating it. Well, if multimedia we mean "watching web video" or some flash pages. The browser can't even put up with viewing RAW images or playing FLAC files... But true, I'm talking about creating (which doesn't mean anything at the Michael Bay level -- even something as simple as family vacation video or high school project).
      - pfranz 10y ago
        Sure, you're swatting down his arguments, but not Linux. IntelliJ works for Linux--I'm not sure why VS was mentioned since this is a thread about moving from macOS to Linux. VS Code works just as well in macOS as it does Linux. Of course the browser can't play back all multimedia. With its pedigree, I'm sure FLAC was running Linux before it was running on Linux or Windows. I haven't heard of much of an issue with RAW files in Linux either. VLC works better more reliably than anything proprietary for macOS or Windows. Creating videos is something that seemed "the thing to do" in the early 2000's. IMHO, Apple did have the best consumer tools back then. But I haven't really hear of much use in the last 10 years. Linux might have decent tools? I wouldn't know.
coldtea 10y ago
>So, there's no new features that anybody asked for Many asked for tabs in every app, shared clipboard, more voice control, improved Photos app and better iTunes, picture in picture, and more full featured Messages app. Plus few would ask Apple to take back the ability to save space (up to tens of GB) through iCloud/Desktop integration and more. In the meantime, there's also a new filesystem on the way, already in early public developer versions. >and there's a ton of nonsense none of us will ever use, as the Mac platform gets increasingly complex Like? I can't possible thing anything that got made more complex, save for a couple of trivial things (with an equal amount of other stuff or more becoming easier). >moves away from Unix compatability In what way it had moved one iota from Unix compatibility? >and doesn't do anything useful with this additional complexity What complexity? What exactly did you find more complex compared to 10.10, or 10.7 or 10.5 or whatever? Besides something like "sandboxed apps make it difficult to piss all over the filesystem, like old apps could".
- schwap 10y ago
  > Many asked for ... more voice control, Colour me skeptical
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Well, let's start with immobile and impaired users, of which are millions... Then, let's check all those media pundits lamenting for the lack of something like Cortana on the Mac...
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  >Like? I can't possible thing anything that got made more complex, save for a couple of trivial things (with an equal amount of other stuff or more becoming easier). UI complexity: Apple keeps moving the goalposts on its UI focus, and it shows: The new interface is WAAY more complex. EC did some interesting unix things, which broke some stuff IIRC. The new FS will be nice, but it's not there now.
  - coldtea 10y ago
pbarnes_1 10y ago
Probably a whole bunch of unannounced security fixes though.

h1d 10y ago

Funny I don't particularly find anything interesting after Snow Leopard. After Jobs left, they decided not to decide on anything and just sit on what was already there. At least they're free. Perhaps the most interesting thing these days is what kind of new name they come up with. It seems to only break apps.

pfranz 10y ago
Feel free to continue using Snow Leopard if you're happy with it. Here are a few things I've liked in subsequent releases (sorry if some are actually in Snow Leopard and I forgot): * Notifications * Air Drop * Face Time * Native Full Screen apps * Multi-touch gestures (mostly use with multi-desktop and fullscreen apps) * Mac App Store (I like it better for OS updates) * Recovery Partition * App Resume * Terminal improvements (I stopped using iTerm) * Air Play mirroring * Notes (and syncing with phone) * Compressed memory * Full Disk encryption * Improved multi-monitor support * Spotlight improvements A few things I'm looking forward to when I do upgrade my hardware: * updating while asleep * hi dpi monitor support
- h1d 10y ago
  Maybe it upset you but apparently keep using Snow Leopard would not let me use any of the recent third party apps and it is totally useless to do so now. - Notifications : Had Growl, nothing new. - Air drop : Perhaps but personally in no need. - Native fullscreen : This is crazy. I turn iTunes fullscreen on secondary display and somehow it blacks out the primary screen for no good reason. Never using this feature. - Multi touch gesture : Customizability is a joke. BetterTouchTools is what is keeping my sanity by applying custom trackpad gestures. - Mac app store : Apparently this is big. - Recovery partition : One of the great invention was network recovery but not like I use it often at all. - Terminal : It was ok back then. Perhaps better if you say so. I do use SSH all the time. Never needed third party terminal. - Air play mirroring : Don't have experience. - Notes : Calendars, notes, reminders, stickies... What's coming next for note taking app? It's just cluttering my app folder. - Compressed memory : Sorry I don't know what this is. Does this help you daily? - Full disk encryption : Important feature. - Multi monitor support : It was fine back then. As said above, part of it is a joke now. - Spotlight : Maybe. I keep my files and mails all tidy, so I don't need a search helper. I mean, Leopard brought Time Machine, grid view folder display from dock, quick look just to remember from top of my head which are all vastly useful and Snow leopard perfected it by making it lighter than previous OS. And today they boast they added like 100 new stuff which almost doesn't matter and I doubt things ever get lighter than previous OS these days. Ever since they thought merging iOS feature into OSX was a good idea, it keeps adding useless pieces and they call it the best release ever. Back then I thought Windows had tons of crapware on newly bought machine but funnily lately OSX is almost a victim of that from the vendor itself... I love using OSX because of high quality third party apps. And in my opinion frankly Windows is still far worse. And for OSX naming... I thought Apple is an international company. Tiger, Leopard etc was easy to read and understand as a word for us foreigners and now what? El capitan? I must think their vision is just getting narrower naming a OS to some local name they thought was cool.
  - sdkmvx 10y ago
    > And for OSX naming... I thought Apple is an international company. Tiger, Leopard etc was easy to read and understand as a word for us foreigners and now what? El capitan? I must think their vision is just getting narrower naming a OS to some local name they thought was cool. It's not just foreigners. Even us on the opposite side of the United States have no idea what El Capitan or Maverick is or means.
  - pfranz 10y ago
    > Maybe it upset you I only said that because I didn't want my comment to come off as goading you into upgrading for the sake of it. I know a bunch of people using older versions of software and are very happy doing so. I was just pointing out a few things off the top of my head I've liked in newer versions in case you weren't familiar with them. Many of them were better integrations with things like iPhone and AppleTV, which might not apply to many people. a few sporadic replies: * Notifications: very few things apps supported growl and I like the integrated implementation better. Growl also started charging money, which is fine, but yet another thing to juggle licensing and that friction drove me away. * multi-monitor: People complained about multi-monitor handling in OSX /a lot/ until the last few years. I haven't heard of any problems recently (maybe I've missed it). I don't deal with it that much, but I still have problems with Windows and Linux...dialog boxes popping up straddling two windows, for example. * Native fullscreen: Fullscreen API was added in 10.7, then changed in 10.8 and again in 10.9. It sounds like because of a limitation at the time of the initial implementation it was integrated with Spaces which blanked out the second monitor. If I remember, there was an option to have each screen use separate "Spaces" to avoid this and in recent version it works out of the box. I think some apps like VLC or iTerm still use their own fullscreen implementation--but now all apps can be fullscreened without developer intervention. I just pointed it out because as it exists today, it's a new feature like to use. * Compressed memory: compresses RAM when it can. Improves performance on lower-end hardware. I don't know about this specifically, but I've seen this kind of thing actually increase performance where i/o is more of a bottleneck than compressing. * Spotlight: I rarely use it for file search (that in itself hasn't changed since SL), but I use it all the time as an app launcher and calculator. My beef with Windows crapware was always applications that run on boot, or something that would throw pop up notices after they expire in 30 days. OSX has always had a bunch of application I never use: Automator, Calculator, Chess, Dictionary... just hide them, delete them, or ignore them. The reason your new applications require new versions of the OS is because the frameworks got better. If new versions of the OS were just adding new applications you don't use, then people would still write their applications with the older, better APIs.

rch 10y ago

You'll be more or less forced to upgrade at some point. Chrome, Slack, and pretty much everything else stopped supporting 10.8 this year. Even CLI apps like Keybase refuse to run.

baldfat 10y ago
AS an outsider looking in. What is holding a developer from moving to Linux? I don't understand the draw of OS X for developers especially the past few years. These yearly updates seem to break everyone's workflow for a while.
- mackey 10y ago
  This has gotten better since they started public betas. It seems like people that work on developer tools are more prepared.
- rch 10y ago
  I've been actively looking for a MBP-quality laptop that shows up on my doorstep running Fedora for about 2 years, but at this point all I'd need is a significant uptick in hardware to justify starting fresh. I'd also point out how frustrating it is that Linux laptops tend to be on the cheap side (on par with a 13" Air), or generally massive, plastic, and loud.
  - nimbleDT 10y ago
    I have both the latest Dell XPS 13 and the Dell XPS 15, either of which would meet your requirements.
    - rch 10y ago
      Possibly... Do you have Fedora running on the 15? ...not required, just curious.
      - nimbleDT 10y ago

gok 10y ago

Moves away from Unix compatibility?

k2enemy 10y ago

Yep, I'm already planning my eventual switch to full time linux. In previous releases there has been at least one thing I look forward to, but this one has nothing. Just features that I would rather not have included. I was recalling the other day that I switched from Windows to Mac as my primary operating system because Windows kept popping up notifications for things I didn't need to see. Now OS X is doing the same thing with all the automatic update notifications that need user input to dismiss.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
Mac has a larger binary footprint, but Linux has Wine, which helps with that a lot. But I've been linux-only for years.

zeveb 10y ago

You could always upgrade to Linux. Debian + stumpwm + emacs + Firefox: why use anything else?

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
Well, Macs have a larger software base: If you want a Unix with app support, and Wine won't cut it, OS X does a neat job. But I'm running Arch myself, so I'm not one to talk.
coldtea 10y ago
>Debian + stumpwm + emacs + Firefox: why use anything else? Because it's 2016? What about multimedia? Or an IDE? Or my proprietary apps like Photoshop and Premiere?
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  PS works surprisingly well in Wine, but that I could understand. Emacs works better than any IDE. Your browser is usually good enough for multimedia unless you're talking about creating it.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Emacs works better than any IDE. In the immortal words of Jeffrey Lebowski: Well, that's like, your opinion, man. Good IDEs like IntelliJ and VS have so much better integration for given languages that only result in ad-hoc, ho-hum solutions in Emacs (if one can suffer the millions of key bindings). >Your browser is usually good enough for multimedia unless you're talking about creating it. Well, if multimedia we mean "watching web video" or some flash pages. The browser can't even put up with viewing RAW images or playing FLAC files... But true, I'm talking about creating (which doesn't mean anything at the Michael Bay level -- even something as simple as family vacation video or high school project).
    - pfranz 10y ago
      Sure, you're swatting down his arguments, but not Linux. IntelliJ works for Linux--I'm not sure why VS was mentioned since this is a thread about moving from macOS to Linux. VS Code works just as well in macOS as it does Linux. Of course the browser can't play back all multimedia. With its pedigree, I'm sure FLAC was running Linux before it was running on Linux or Windows. I haven't heard of much of an issue with RAW files in Linux either. VLC works better more reliably than anything proprietary for macOS or Windows. Creating videos is something that seemed "the thing to do" in the early 2000's. IMHO, Apple did have the best consumer tools back then. But I haven't really hear of much use in the last 10 years. Linux might have decent tools? I wouldn't know.

coldtea 10y ago

>So, there's no new features that anybody asked for Many asked for tabs in every app, shared clipboard, more voice control, improved Photos app and better iTunes, picture in picture, and more full featured Messages app. Plus few would ask Apple to take back the ability to save space (up to tens of GB) through iCloud/Desktop integration and more. In the meantime, there's also a new filesystem on the way, already in early public developer versions. >and there's a ton of nonsense none of us will ever use, as the Mac platform gets increasingly complex Like? I can't possible thing anything that got made more complex, save for a couple of trivial things (with an equal amount of other stuff or more becoming easier). >moves away from Unix compatability In what way it had moved one iota from Unix compatibility? >and doesn't do anything useful with this additional complexity What complexity? What exactly did you find more complex compared to 10.10, or 10.7 or 10.5 or whatever? Besides something like "sandboxed apps make it difficult to piss all over the filesystem, like old apps could".

schwap 10y ago
> Many asked for ... more voice control, Colour me skeptical
- coldtea 10y ago
  Well, let's start with immobile and impaired users, of which are millions... Then, let's check all those media pundits lamenting for the lack of something like Cortana on the Mac...
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
>Like? I can't possible thing anything that got made more complex, save for a couple of trivial things (with an equal amount of other stuff or more becoming easier). UI complexity: Apple keeps moving the goalposts on its UI focus, and it shows: The new interface is WAAY more complex. EC did some interesting unix things, which broke some stuff IIRC. The new FS will be nice, but it's not there now.
- coldtea 10y ago

pbarnes_1 10y ago

Probably a whole bunch of unannounced security fixes though.