8 ms·

Why Successful Games in China Rarely Obtain the Equivalent Success in the West

40 points by douche 10y ago

bottled_poe 10y ago
This article makes some very broad statements without any examples to back them up. Much like this comment.
xiaoma 10y ago
This ignores the elephant in the room: international competition. Top western games such as World of Warcraft have done extremely well in China without having to rewrite the stories or change their artwork. A huge issue is that the Chinese gaming companies are accustomed to very little international competition for Chinese themed games and in the last five years or so, limited competition at all. It's similar to how Youku thrived in China (especially after YouTube got blocked) but can't compete internationally. Winning in China and successfully entering a market where US and Japanese game companies are unrestrained are two very different challenges.
- TylerE 10y ago
  > or change their artwork. Not true! See: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/49x7m0/chinese_wow_censorship_comparisonlots_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/49x7m0/chinese_wow_cen...
  - xiaoma 10y ago
    That's very minor and IIRC occurred after they had already made a fortune in China. There were political hurdles and that's why Blizzard partnered with The9, but the market was satisfied enough with the art assets to spend gobs on WoW.
- rezashirazian 10y ago
  Wasn't the whole Pandaria region/race blatant pandering to the Chinese market?
  - PakG1 10y ago
    Except it was popular over there already before Pandaria was even released. I'd warrant that it would have continued to be popular if Pandaria wasn't released.
- bsder 10y ago
  > This ignores the elephant in the room: international competition. I would attribute most of the difference to this, but I would go further in that there just aren't that many successful international games period. Any game which requires language for cooperation is a non-starter. So, you either have to be individually based or competition. Most of the really successful ones are individual: Angry Birds, Candy Crush, Clash of Clans, Puzzles and Dragons. Some competition ones do exist: Hearthstone, Clash Royale, Words with Friends. However, you have a bootstrapping issue for competition--how do you have competitions until you have competitors and vice versa?
  - rangibaby 10y ago
    I would say Counter-Strike (especially GO with it's matchmaking) is a good example of a successful international game. It was not uncommon to have Chinese, Russians, Japanese, Koreans, etc. on the same server. A lot of people have learned a few words from other languages like "thanks" or "fuck you". There is some basic coordination of tactics too because the goals in the game are "A" and "B", or asking a teammate to buy a weapon for you, a "drop".
  - detaro 10y ago
    > Any game which requires language for cooperation is a non-starter. Some games have a fixed set of messages/soundbites which is enough for some basic coordination, which then can be translated in all client languages. Sure, for high-level play you often will want voice chat, but it works for normal online games. And of course very basic English can go a long way in text chats.
  - iopq 10y ago
    > I would attribute most of the difference to this, but I would go further in that there just aren't that many successful international games period. LoL, WoW, Hearthstone, DotA 2 are some of the most popular games and they're popular world-wide, not just in the US and they're competitive games. DotA 2, for example, has servers for different regions so at least the language barrier issue is not as bad. Bootstrapping is not an issue when you have good marketing, because you can have a large "launch" that people were waiting for. Maybe a single-player mode is useful to bring in people who are not confident in their skills as well.
yakult 10y ago
>For example, some female characters in game from China show too much skin to be appealing, which would be offensive to both female and male players in the West. Oh the many ironies. Things have truly come full circle.
- DrStalker 10y ago
  Are the skimpy female outfits used in some Asian games really offensive to a majority of Western players, or is that just what people say when asked because it's become socially unacceptable to promote sexualisation of female characters?
  - rezashirazian 10y ago
    "skimpy female outfits used in some Asian" I think it's worth noting that Japan is fairly unique when it comes to this topic. You can't really group it as "Asian" along with the Chinese/Korean market.
    - bsder 10y ago
      > I think it's worth noting that Japan is fairly unique when it comes to this topic. Korea would like to weigh in with "Blade and Soul" for a stunning counterexample.
  - throwaway2016b 10y ago
    They may not all be interested in it ("weeaboo trash") but I would hazard a guess that the vast majority would openly laugh at the idea that someone is offended by such things. The people that write about games in the West have little in common with the average player. They project their bubble's academic norms of identity politics on an audience that they hold in undisguised contempt. I wouldn't trust them for critical analysis or social commentary on any group but other angsty liberal arts majors.
  - yongjik 10y ago
    I don't play games these days, but I can totally see how one can be put off by female "warriors" wearing glorified G-strings. Not necessarily in "Oh how dare they objectify women!" way, but more like "Do these idiots take me for a horny teenager?" way.
runeblaze 10y ago
The first paragraph of the "Art Style" section seems like overstatement to me. Chinese seem to accept western styles just fine (WoW for example), so I just do not think art is really worth putting as the first section along with more important design decisions like world background. The image caption "Popular Art Style among Game Players in China" could be much better phrased as "The Art Style of popular Chinese games" imo. The original caption gives the impression that the art style led to popularity, which is not true: it is probably because the settings of these game, of ancient China, fill a niche that few foreign competitors are interested in.
- douche 10y ago
  How much is the art style of something like WoW already adapted to a style that is more compatible with the Asian markets? Warcraft has definitely gotten considerably more cartoony and almost anime-inspired since it's original incarnations. It only makes sense that they might be influenced in that direction, given the runaway success StarCraft, for instance, enjoyed, and still enjoys in Korea.
  - runeblaze 10y ago
    I do need to admit that I did not consider that these game could have adapted more to the Asian markets. I guess I need to reorganize my thoughts and perhaps do more research. I do not know much and this is pure speculation, but I feel like WoW's art change is a result of constant tweaking while in the Asian markets instead of a deliberate trend. This intrigues me into asking if Chinese games' traditional style (not the anime ones) will have any luck in western markets at all or it will be force to be westernized to gain popularity in western markets in the first place. edit: grammar
idra 10y ago
Easy answer: because they suck. Players in China are used to outright horrible software (QQ, Qihoo 360, and in fact the majority of Chinese-produced software installed on a Windows computer of a typical user), bland repetitive art, bugs, grinding and paying to win. A strong nationalistic sentiment makes Chinese players favour games based on their culture and history, which is mostly unknown outside of China because of how closed the country has been for centuries and the "foreign barbarians can't possibly understand our culture" attitude. In addition, the content is usually limited to the Four Great Classical Novels because that's the only thing a Chinese layman is familiar with. But also, due to censorship, it is impossible to use more interesting settings without getting unwanted attention from the government. A recent development in censorship is [1], which bans the use of Traditional Chinese characters (as opposed to the simplified ones in use after the Communist Party takeover and which are in use in all Chinese-speaking countries outside the PRC) and English words. Combined with a large potential player base and lack of foreign competition, even the most atrocious abomination of a game can make some money in the internal market. [1] https://www.techinasia.com/mobile-game-devs-pissed-chinas-censorship-rules https://www.techinasia.com/mobile-game-devs-pissed-chinas-ce...
- phoebus 10y ago
  Not sure about other things you said, but is it true that QQ sucks? QQ supports over hundreds millions online users every day, and numerous group chat rooms at the same time. QQ is far more advanced than any IM softwares outside of China.
  - idra 10y ago
    > QQ is far more advanced than any IM softwares outside of China. Really? Full of ads, automatic censorship, scummy monetization strategies, a ton of bundled bloatware. And it is an ICQ ripoff anyway.
  - michaelmrose 10y ago
    How so?
  - kkarakk 10y ago
Animats 10y ago
The note that games in China have a more complex UI is interesting. Is this for PCs, consoles, or mobiles? Since computing in China tends to be mobile-first, I would have expected simplified touchscreen-type interfaces. Here's a recent Chinese kung-fu movie, (mainland, not Hong Kong) fully approved by the government and Party.[1] This has a game-like look to it. It's a sense of the style expected. Even though this is set present-day, it looks like a historical drama. [1] http://www.gooddrama.to/chinese-movie/the-bodyguard-movie http://www.gooddrama.to/chinese-movie/the-bodyguard-movie
johngalt 10y ago
Koei has had no problem making games set in the three kingdoms period. Romance of the three kingdoms is a great series. So is Dynasty warriors.
pjlegato 10y ago
So why have Japanese games been so extremely successful in the west? They suffer from all of the same supposed drawbacks, which were even more marked during their period of peak success in the 1980s and 1990s -- think Super Mario Brothers, Final Fantasy, Legend of Zelda, Street Fighter II. These games, all huge successes in Japan and in the west, have all the issues described -- radically different art styles, very different pacing, and complex and unfamiliar user interfaces compared to what westerners were used to. Even worse, during that period, Japanese games got little if any localization for the US and European markets, beyond hastily done and poorly proofread translations of the text. So what's different about Japanese games?
- idra 10y ago
  They're actually good games.
- Noos 10y ago
  Japanese games generally have been wedded to the console, and they have excelled at console engineering. America for the longest time ignored the home consoles after the big Atari crash, until the Xbox came out. And even that was more of a pc-ification of console gaming. It's more the accident of being in possession of an entire market to themselves I think than anything.
Noos 10y ago
From what I understand, Chinese love the pay-to-win model of microtransactions. They don't mind at all if you can spend your way to the top, whereas western gamers tend to flee that type of game fast. I don't mean the usual "you get some advantage if you subscribe" types, like restricting inventory space, but pure power for money. One thing I would add is that from the little of mass-market stuff that has reached the west, is that Chinese writers are really bad at story. The Detective Dee films are a great example. Nice aesthetic, fun action scenes, but the story is barely Michael Bay Transformers level at best. They you get into the horrid nationalism, like in Ip Man.
- kkarakk 10y ago
  This is really true and chinese companies exploit it to the hilt, there is a game i tried called "Revelation Online" that mixes player vs environment(PvE) and player vs player(PvP). It instantly becomes very clear to you as a player that play to win is the theme of the game as you get slaughtered quite easily while trying to accomplish anything in the game. quite frustrating but the in game community treated it as quite common and was blase about it
kkarakk 10y ago
Lot of pro-chinese propaganda in this post without data or even anecdotal experiences to back it up. paid astro-turfing on hackernews?

40 points by douche 10y ago

This article makes some very broad statements without any examples to back them up. Much like this comment.

This ignores the elephant in the room: international competition. Top western games such as World of Warcraft have done extremely well in China without having to rewrite the stories or change their artwork. A huge issue is that the Chinese gaming companies are accustomed to very little international competition for Chinese themed games and in the last five years or so, limited competition at all. It's similar to how Youku thrived in China (especially after YouTube got blocked) but can't compete internationally. Winning in China and successfully entering a market where US and Japanese game companies are unrestrained are two very different challenges.

TylerE 10y ago
> or change their artwork. Not true! See: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/49x7m0/chinese_wow_censorship_comparisonlots_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/49x7m0/chinese_wow_cen...
- xiaoma 10y ago
  That's very minor and IIRC occurred after they had already made a fortune in China. There were political hurdles and that's why Blizzard partnered with The9, but the market was satisfied enough with the art assets to spend gobs on WoW.
rezashirazian 10y ago
Wasn't the whole Pandaria region/race blatant pandering to the Chinese market?
- PakG1 10y ago
  Except it was popular over there already before Pandaria was even released. I'd warrant that it would have continued to be popular if Pandaria wasn't released.
bsder 10y ago
> This ignores the elephant in the room: international competition. I would attribute most of the difference to this, but I would go further in that there just aren't that many successful international games period. Any game which requires language for cooperation is a non-starter. So, you either have to be individually based or competition. Most of the really successful ones are individual: Angry Birds, Candy Crush, Clash of Clans, Puzzles and Dragons. Some competition ones do exist: Hearthstone, Clash Royale, Words with Friends. However, you have a bootstrapping issue for competition--how do you have competitions until you have competitors and vice versa?
- rangibaby 10y ago
  I would say Counter-Strike (especially GO with it's matchmaking) is a good example of a successful international game. It was not uncommon to have Chinese, Russians, Japanese, Koreans, etc. on the same server. A lot of people have learned a few words from other languages like "thanks" or "fuck you". There is some basic coordination of tactics too because the goals in the game are "A" and "B", or asking a teammate to buy a weapon for you, a "drop".
- detaro 10y ago
  > Any game which requires language for cooperation is a non-starter. Some games have a fixed set of messages/soundbites which is enough for some basic coordination, which then can be translated in all client languages. Sure, for high-level play you often will want voice chat, but it works for normal online games. And of course very basic English can go a long way in text chats.
- iopq 10y ago
  > I would attribute most of the difference to this, but I would go further in that there just aren't that many successful international games period. LoL, WoW, Hearthstone, DotA 2 are some of the most popular games and they're popular world-wide, not just in the US and they're competitive games. DotA 2, for example, has servers for different regions so at least the language barrier issue is not as bad. Bootstrapping is not an issue when you have good marketing, because you can have a large "launch" that people were waiting for. Maybe a single-player mode is useful to bring in people who are not confident in their skills as well.

yakult 10y ago

>For example, some female characters in game from China show too much skin to be appealing, which would be offensive to both female and male players in the West. Oh the many ironies. Things have truly come full circle.

DrStalker 10y ago
Are the skimpy female outfits used in some Asian games really offensive to a majority of Western players, or is that just what people say when asked because it's become socially unacceptable to promote sexualisation of female characters?
- rezashirazian 10y ago
  "skimpy female outfits used in some Asian" I think it's worth noting that Japan is fairly unique when it comes to this topic. You can't really group it as "Asian" along with the Chinese/Korean market.
  - bsder 10y ago
    > I think it's worth noting that Japan is fairly unique when it comes to this topic. Korea would like to weigh in with "Blade and Soul" for a stunning counterexample.
- throwaway2016b 10y ago
  They may not all be interested in it ("weeaboo trash") but I would hazard a guess that the vast majority would openly laugh at the idea that someone is offended by such things. The people that write about games in the West have little in common with the average player. They project their bubble's academic norms of identity politics on an audience that they hold in undisguised contempt. I wouldn't trust them for critical analysis or social commentary on any group but other angsty liberal arts majors.
- yongjik 10y ago
  I don't play games these days, but I can totally see how one can be put off by female "warriors" wearing glorified G-strings. Not necessarily in "Oh how dare they objectify women!" way, but more like "Do these idiots take me for a horny teenager?" way.

runeblaze 10y ago

The first paragraph of the "Art Style" section seems like overstatement to me. Chinese seem to accept western styles just fine (WoW for example), so I just do not think art is really worth putting as the first section along with more important design decisions like world background. The image caption "Popular Art Style among Game Players in China" could be much better phrased as "The Art Style of popular Chinese games" imo. The original caption gives the impression that the art style led to popularity, which is not true: it is probably because the settings of these game, of ancient China, fill a niche that few foreign competitors are interested in.

douche 10y ago
How much is the art style of something like WoW already adapted to a style that is more compatible with the Asian markets? Warcraft has definitely gotten considerably more cartoony and almost anime-inspired since it's original incarnations. It only makes sense that they might be influenced in that direction, given the runaway success StarCraft, for instance, enjoyed, and still enjoys in Korea.
- runeblaze 10y ago
  I do need to admit that I did not consider that these game could have adapted more to the Asian markets. I guess I need to reorganize my thoughts and perhaps do more research. I do not know much and this is pure speculation, but I feel like WoW's art change is a result of constant tweaking while in the Asian markets instead of a deliberate trend. This intrigues me into asking if Chinese games' traditional style (not the anime ones) will have any luck in western markets at all or it will be force to be westernized to gain popularity in western markets in the first place. edit: grammar

idra 10y ago

Easy answer: because they suck. Players in China are used to outright horrible software (QQ, Qihoo 360, and in fact the majority of Chinese-produced software installed on a Windows computer of a typical user), bland repetitive art, bugs, grinding and paying to win. A strong nationalistic sentiment makes Chinese players favour games based on their culture and history, which is mostly unknown outside of China because of how closed the country has been for centuries and the "foreign barbarians can't possibly understand our culture" attitude. In addition, the content is usually limited to the Four Great Classical Novels because that's the only thing a Chinese layman is familiar with. But also, due to censorship, it is impossible to use more interesting settings without getting unwanted attention from the government. A recent development in censorship is [1], which bans the use of Traditional Chinese characters (as opposed to the simplified ones in use after the Communist Party takeover and which are in use in all Chinese-speaking countries outside the PRC) and English words. Combined with a large potential player base and lack of foreign competition, even the most atrocious abomination of a game can make some money in the internal market. [1] https://www.techinasia.com/mobile-game-devs-pissed-chinas-censorship-rules https://www.techinasia.com/mobile-game-devs-pissed-chinas-ce...

phoebus 10y ago
Not sure about other things you said, but is it true that QQ sucks? QQ supports over hundreds millions online users every day, and numerous group chat rooms at the same time. QQ is far more advanced than any IM softwares outside of China.
- idra 10y ago
  > QQ is far more advanced than any IM softwares outside of China. Really? Full of ads, automatic censorship, scummy monetization strategies, a ton of bundled bloatware. And it is an ICQ ripoff anyway.
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  How so?
- kkarakk 10y ago

Animats 10y ago

The note that games in China have a more complex UI is interesting. Is this for PCs, consoles, or mobiles? Since computing in China tends to be mobile-first, I would have expected simplified touchscreen-type interfaces. Here's a recent Chinese kung-fu movie, (mainland, not Hong Kong) fully approved by the government and Party.[1] This has a game-like look to it. It's a sense of the style expected. Even though this is set present-day, it looks like a historical drama. [1] http://www.gooddrama.to/chinese-movie/the-bodyguard-movie http://www.gooddrama.to/chinese-movie/the-bodyguard-movie

johngalt 10y ago

Koei has had no problem making games set in the three kingdoms period. Romance of the three kingdoms is a great series. So is Dynasty warriors.

pjlegato 10y ago

So why have Japanese games been so extremely successful in the west? They suffer from all of the same supposed drawbacks, which were even more marked during their period of peak success in the 1980s and 1990s -- think Super Mario Brothers, Final Fantasy, Legend of Zelda, Street Fighter II. These games, all huge successes in Japan and in the west, have all the issues described -- radically different art styles, very different pacing, and complex and unfamiliar user interfaces compared to what westerners were used to. Even worse, during that period, Japanese games got little if any localization for the US and European markets, beyond hastily done and poorly proofread translations of the text. So what's different about Japanese games?

idra 10y ago
They're actually good games.
Noos 10y ago
Japanese games generally have been wedded to the console, and they have excelled at console engineering. America for the longest time ignored the home consoles after the big Atari crash, until the Xbox came out. And even that was more of a pc-ification of console gaming. It's more the accident of being in possession of an entire market to themselves I think than anything.

Noos 10y ago

From what I understand, Chinese love the pay-to-win model of microtransactions. They don't mind at all if you can spend your way to the top, whereas western gamers tend to flee that type of game fast. I don't mean the usual "you get some advantage if you subscribe" types, like restricting inventory space, but pure power for money. One thing I would add is that from the little of mass-market stuff that has reached the west, is that Chinese writers are really bad at story. The Detective Dee films are a great example. Nice aesthetic, fun action scenes, but the story is barely Michael Bay Transformers level at best. They you get into the horrid nationalism, like in Ip Man.

kkarakk 10y ago
This is really true and chinese companies exploit it to the hilt, there is a game i tried called "Revelation Online" that mixes player vs environment(PvE) and player vs player(PvP). It instantly becomes very clear to you as a player that play to win is the theme of the game as you get slaughtered quite easily while trying to accomplish anything in the game. quite frustrating but the in game community treated it as quite common and was blase about it

kkarakk 10y ago

Lot of pro-chinese propaganda in this post without data or even anecdotal experiences to back it up. paid astro-turfing on hackernews?