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I feel like a lot of the replies here are missing what's actually a quite subtle, thoughtful argument: The German philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz made th
by themgt 10y ago
I feel like a lot of the replies here are missing what's actually a quite subtle, thoughtful argument:
The German philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz made the point vividly in 1714. Perception or consciousness, he wrote, is “inexplicable on mechanical principles, i.e. by shapes and movements. If we imagine a machine whose structure makes it think, sense, and be conscious, we can conceive of it being enlarged in such a way that we can go inside it like a mill” — think of the 1966 movie “Fantastic Voyage,” or imagine the ultimate brain scanner. Leibniz continued, “Suppose we do: visiting its insides, we will never find anything but parts pushing each other — never anything that could explain a conscious state.”
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Many make the same mistake today — the Very Large Mistake (as Winnie-the-Pooh might put it) of thinking that we know enough about the nature of physical stuff to know that conscious experience can’t be physical. We don’t. We don’t know the intrinsic nature of physical stuff..
We find this idea extremely difficult because we’re so very deeply committed to the belief that we know more about the physical than we do, and (in particular) know enough to know that consciousness can’t be physical. We don’t see that the hard problem is not what consciousness is, it’s what matter is — what the physical is.
People making computer analogies below are engaging in the exact fallacy the piece is arguing against. A turing machine is a mathematical model for symbolic manipulation, and yet it's assumed one could somehow "map" consciousness 1-to-1 onto such a machine. The fact we can't simulate a single protein fold on a supercomputer gives me real pause in believing we've begun to grasp or have the ability to digitally emulate the kind of tricks life used to bootstrap consciousness out of matter.
I know the "no real evidence" / "too warm & wet & macro" arguments against quantum consciousness, but that to me looks like by far the most fruitful path to investigate to break out of dualist/"eliminativist" dilemma we find ourselves in. Recent research on quantum biology already makes clear life makes is far more quantum than I think almost anyone would have believed possible a decade or two ago. Considering just photosynthesis, arguably no life as we know it on earth would be possible without clever non-classical hacks by nature.
- roywiggins 10y agoHow does making it quantum help? A PRNG in my head makes me unpredictable until someone finds the seed; what benefits other than true randomness does a quantum brain actually "buy"? It's all still physical stuff bumping around, just a little bit nonlocal.
- ilaksh 10y agoThis quantum biology stuff is just a way for dualists to hang on to their religious or mystic beliefs.
- CuriouslyC 10y agoNot exactly. We've pushed determinism down to the level of quantum mechanics. Bell's theorem strongly implicates that the universe is fundamentally non-deterministic. The way I see it, you can interpret this non-determinism as randomness, or you can interpret it as choice. The thing I find ironic is that most scientists - who espouse parsimony and deduction based on observation - choose the random explanation. If quantum indeterminacy is random, it is the first truly random process we've ever discovered. Additionally, when a scientist states that their perception of choice is mistaken/an illusion, I have to ask, then how do you trust any of the data you base your science on?
- themgt 10y agoYep, mostly agreed. I think if you squint a little, it's possible to see how real non-deterministic "choice" can bootstrap itself out of QM. Do we have a theory describing how? No, but such a theory would inherently upend the foundations of science and western philosophy, so even if we don't have it in hand, it's worth pointing out there's a fair amount of ... circumstantial evidence(?) in that direction.