8 ms·

Friend of mine runs a tiny and successful to-go cafe. His most unexpected problem was competitor restaurants around him constantly phoning city hall to "complai

by feklar 10y ago

Friend of mine runs a tiny and successful to-go cafe. His most unexpected problem was competitor restaurants around him constantly phoning city hall to "complain" about his business in hopes they regulate him off the street. The most common complaint at first was cooking smell, so the tiny cafe is forced to install expensive filtration exhaust.Then the complaints turned to signage. A city inspector showed up numerous times to measure his sign, how far his little sandwich board was placed in the sidewalk out front, the brightness of the lights on his sign, that the artwork on the sandwich board was offensive or violated one of the thousands of regulations regarding public advertising. Then the complaints turned to patio, there was too much noise, chairs were too far into the street, garbage was left too long on tables, ect. Anybody with a restaurant/cafe startup idea should have some kind of contingency plan to deal with the inevitable use of city hall to try and close you down.

matwood 10y ago
See also Uber and AirBnB, just on a much larger scale.
- 467568985476 10y ago
  Is the takeaway here, "Be prepared to be responsible for the negative externalities your business creates"?
  - noonespecial 10y ago
    I'd say it more like "get to know some folks at city hall because fairness is going to be seen about as often as a Kadupul flower blooming."
- richard_mcp 10y ago
  But Uber and AirBnB are giant companies that actively flaunt city policies. I imagine OP's friend probably doesn't have an army of lawyers and probably wasn't aware he was violating any.
Red_Tarsius 10y ago
I find very depressing that the emergent behaviour of competitive companies resembles psychopathy. If all those complaints came from the same individual we would surely call him out! Instead morality suffers the death of a thousand cuts. I hope local behaviour is not a predictor of global behaviour. Otherwise mankind is not going to solve existential threats such as global warming. It reminds me of the tragedy of the commons.
- kabisote 10y ago
  This behaviour is present in my country too. Surely in other countries also. It is global.
- visakanv 10y ago
  Science writer Lewis Thomas observed this decades ago: > The solitary Ik, isolated in the ruins of an exploded culture, has built a new defense for himself. If you live in an unworkable society you can make up one of your own, and this is what the Iks have done. Each Ik has become a group, a one-man tribe on its own, a constituency. > Now everything falls into place. This is why they do seem, after all, vaguely familiar to all of us. We’ve seen them before. > This is precisely the way groups of one size or another, ranging from committees to nations, behave. It is, of course, this aspect of humanity that has lagged behind the rest of evolution, and this is why the Ik seems so primitive. In his absolute selfishness, his incapacity to give anything away, no matter what, he is a successful committee. When he stands at the door of his hut, shouting insults at his neighbors in a loud harangue, he is city addressing another city. > Cities have all the Ik characteristics. They defecate on doorsteps, in rivers and lakes, their own or anyone else’s. They leave rubbish. They detest all neighboring cities, give nothing away. They even build institutions for deserting elders out of sight. > Nations are the most Ik-like of all. No wonder the Iks seem familiar. For total greed, capacity, heartlessness, and irresponsibility there is nothing to match a nation. Nations, by law, are solitary, self-centered, withdrawn into themselves. There is no such thing as affection between nations, and certainly no nation ever loved another. They bawl insults from their doorsteps, defecate into whole oceans, snatch all the food, survive by detestation, take joy in the bad luck of others, celebrate the death of others, live for the death of others. - http://biologywatcher.tumblr.com/post/119092283475/lewis-thomas-the-iks http://biologywatcher.tumblr.com/post/119092283475/lewis-tho...
blatherard 10y ago
How does he know these are competitors calling and not legitimate complaints?
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  Probably that a normal person would not care about the distance or length of a sign from the street unless it was ridiculous.
  - megablast 10y ago
    Except the 100s of people walking by and having another obstruction they didn't ask for and don't want in their path. Or stupid sign hanging from the roof. It is not unreasonable NOT to want these things in your neighborhood.
    - charlesdm 10y ago
      Sorry, but only an unreasonable person would say this. Aren't there enough problems in the world, that we have to care about a sign not being positioned correctly?
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - robbiemitchell 10y ago
        In NYC, I can imagine "the world" comprising home, the route from home to work, work, the route from work to home, and home. Don't mess with any of them.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Did you ever read Jamie Zawinski's blog about setting up DNA Lounge in SOMA? Neighbors absolutely do care about this stuff, and will make enormous pests of themselves. For that matter, are you a member of any local social network thingies? I've on NextDoor, whatever that is, for the last few weeks, and I'm surprised to discover that every local business I knew about (and several that I've only now become aware of) are defined primarily by the random, petty (to me) seeming complaints they generate from the neighborhood. I wouldn't be too quick to jump to the conclusion that complaints like these are "enemy action".
icelancer 10y ago
1000 times yes. I don't even own a restaurant, but I own a small business in a regulation-heavy industry/municipality, and this is what I deal with on a regular basis. And I don't even have competitors who try to drive me out of business - the local government does it all on their own. Can't even imagine how bad it would be if I had a bad actor in their ears, notifying them everytime I violated Section 109(b)(c) of their cleanup code.
rayiner 10y ago
Eh. The city passed laws to regulate how much for-profit businesses impinged on the public. Food smells in the air, signs and patio chairs on the public sidewalk. Especially if we're talking about a typical patio that actually impinges on the public sidewalk. Regulating that doesn't seem unreasonable. And if everybody else has to follow those laws, why should your friend's place be any different? Why should a competing business have to bear the expense of installing a filtration system, then sit idly by while someone sets up shop next door and flouts that regulation? This is where part of the criticism of cabs is unfair. Cabs aren't allowed to maximize their profits through the perfect price discrimination offered by dynamic pricing. Stuff like Pool and $1 fares are illegal for cab companies to do. So why shouldn't they complain when Uber competes with them without following regulations they have to follow? Your complaint sounds like those people who get mad when someone rats them out for cheating in class.
- khuey 10y ago
  Cab companies agreed to those rules in exchange for the privilege of picking up random hails off the street. That used to be an enormous competitive advantage over competing transportation providers (e.g. SuperShuttle, limo services, etc). Thanks to mobile phones, that's no longer a significant competitive advantage. Everywhere that Uber operates legally though taxis have the option of giving up that privilege in exchange for being released from those regulations (essentially becoming Uber). Nobody is forcing taxi companies to stay in the regulated taxi business.
- javajosh 10y ago
  >Your complaint sounds like those people who get mad when someone rats them out for cheating in class. The legal system is so complex that we are all always cheating. People only call for strict enforcement of the rules when they don't like you. It is a wonderful thing to get the government to attack your enemies for you.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    Yeah, it's so complex: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycbe/downloads/pdf/nycchecklist_restaurantsigns.pdf http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycbe/downloads/pdf/nycchecklist_res.... OP's examples were not obscure subsection g part 4 item iii-type stuff. They are basic things you'd think about if you were considering the impact of your business on the public.
Spooky23 10y ago
Easiest way to handle this is invite the local alderman over to lunch and contribute a few hundred dollars to his campaign. Also invite the cops in. If you give the impression that you're connected, these things go away. Plus, a few hundred bucks means your phone call gets picked up.
puppymaster 10y ago
I agree. Especially in Manhattan where spot check is taken very seriously by the authority. You can see health reports on all restaurants in NYC here http://safediningnyc.com http://safediningnyc.com
- cylinder 10y ago
  Doesn't seem to work. I regularly get sick eating here, and I've had my worst bout of food poisoning ever (week long). I never had food poisoning before in my life. I never eat anywhere below A either.
maverick_iceman 10y ago
"If it moves tax it, if it keeps moving regulate it, if it stops moving subsidise it." - Ronald Reagan
thret 10y ago
It sounds like he was supposed to bribe them but was too innocent to realise.
stevenwiles 10y ago
I mean... regulations exist for a reason. You think someone is over at city hall making these up as they go for no reason? Sounds like your friend could have done a better job educating himself before he started.

by feklar 10y ago

matwood 10y ago

See also Uber and AirBnB, just on a much larger scale.

467568985476 10y ago
Is the takeaway here, "Be prepared to be responsible for the negative externalities your business creates"?
- noonespecial 10y ago
  I'd say it more like "get to know some folks at city hall because fairness is going to be seen about as often as a Kadupul flower blooming."
richard_mcp 10y ago
But Uber and AirBnB are giant companies that actively flaunt city policies. I imagine OP's friend probably doesn't have an army of lawyers and probably wasn't aware he was violating any.

Red_Tarsius 10y ago

I find very depressing that the emergent behaviour of competitive companies resembles psychopathy. If all those complaints came from the same individual we would surely call him out! Instead morality suffers the death of a thousand cuts. I hope local behaviour is not a predictor of global behaviour. Otherwise mankind is not going to solve existential threats such as global warming. It reminds me of the tragedy of the commons.

kabisote 10y ago
This behaviour is present in my country too. Surely in other countries also. It is global.
visakanv 10y ago
Science writer Lewis Thomas observed this decades ago: > The solitary Ik, isolated in the ruins of an exploded culture, has built a new defense for himself. If you live in an unworkable society you can make up one of your own, and this is what the Iks have done. Each Ik has become a group, a one-man tribe on its own, a constituency. > Now everything falls into place. This is why they do seem, after all, vaguely familiar to all of us. We’ve seen them before. > This is precisely the way groups of one size or another, ranging from committees to nations, behave. It is, of course, this aspect of humanity that has lagged behind the rest of evolution, and this is why the Ik seems so primitive. In his absolute selfishness, his incapacity to give anything away, no matter what, he is a successful committee. When he stands at the door of his hut, shouting insults at his neighbors in a loud harangue, he is city addressing another city. > Cities have all the Ik characteristics. They defecate on doorsteps, in rivers and lakes, their own or anyone else’s. They leave rubbish. They detest all neighboring cities, give nothing away. They even build institutions for deserting elders out of sight. > Nations are the most Ik-like of all. No wonder the Iks seem familiar. For total greed, capacity, heartlessness, and irresponsibility there is nothing to match a nation. Nations, by law, are solitary, self-centered, withdrawn into themselves. There is no such thing as affection between nations, and certainly no nation ever loved another. They bawl insults from their doorsteps, defecate into whole oceans, snatch all the food, survive by detestation, take joy in the bad luck of others, celebrate the death of others, live for the death of others. - http://biologywatcher.tumblr.com/post/119092283475/lewis-thomas-the-iks http://biologywatcher.tumblr.com/post/119092283475/lewis-tho...

blatherard 10y ago

How does he know these are competitors calling and not legitimate complaints?

mixmastamyk 10y ago
Probably that a normal person would not care about the distance or length of a sign from the street unless it was ridiculous.
- megablast 10y ago
  Except the 100s of people walking by and having another obstruction they didn't ask for and don't want in their path. Or stupid sign hanging from the roof. It is not unreasonable NOT to want these things in your neighborhood.
  - charlesdm 10y ago
    Sorry, but only an unreasonable person would say this. Aren't there enough problems in the world, that we have to care about a sign not being positioned correctly?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - robbiemitchell 10y ago
      In NYC, I can imagine "the world" comprising home, the route from home to work, work, the route from work to home, and home. Don't mess with any of them.
- tptacek 10y ago
  Did you ever read Jamie Zawinski's blog about setting up DNA Lounge in SOMA? Neighbors absolutely do care about this stuff, and will make enormous pests of themselves. For that matter, are you a member of any local social network thingies? I've on NextDoor, whatever that is, for the last few weeks, and I'm surprised to discover that every local business I knew about (and several that I've only now become aware of) are defined primarily by the random, petty (to me) seeming complaints they generate from the neighborhood. I wouldn't be too quick to jump to the conclusion that complaints like these are "enemy action".

icelancer 10y ago

1000 times yes. I don't even own a restaurant, but I own a small business in a regulation-heavy industry/municipality, and this is what I deal with on a regular basis. And I don't even have competitors who try to drive me out of business - the local government does it all on their own. Can't even imagine how bad it would be if I had a bad actor in their ears, notifying them everytime I violated Section 109(b)(c) of their cleanup code.

rayiner 10y ago

Eh. The city passed laws to regulate how much for-profit businesses impinged on the public. Food smells in the air, signs and patio chairs on the public sidewalk. Especially if we're talking about a typical patio that actually impinges on the public sidewalk. Regulating that doesn't seem unreasonable. And if everybody else has to follow those laws, why should your friend's place be any different? Why should a competing business have to bear the expense of installing a filtration system, then sit idly by while someone sets up shop next door and flouts that regulation? This is where part of the criticism of cabs is unfair. Cabs aren't allowed to maximize their profits through the perfect price discrimination offered by dynamic pricing. Stuff like Pool and $1 fares are illegal for cab companies to do. So why shouldn't they complain when Uber competes with them without following regulations they have to follow? Your complaint sounds like those people who get mad when someone rats them out for cheating in class.

khuey 10y ago
Cab companies agreed to those rules in exchange for the privilege of picking up random hails off the street. That used to be an enormous competitive advantage over competing transportation providers (e.g. SuperShuttle, limo services, etc). Thanks to mobile phones, that's no longer a significant competitive advantage. Everywhere that Uber operates legally though taxis have the option of giving up that privilege in exchange for being released from those regulations (essentially becoming Uber). Nobody is forcing taxi companies to stay in the regulated taxi business.
javajosh 10y ago
>Your complaint sounds like those people who get mad when someone rats them out for cheating in class. The legal system is so complex that we are all always cheating. People only call for strict enforcement of the rules when they don't like you. It is a wonderful thing to get the government to attack your enemies for you.
- rayiner 10y ago
  Yeah, it's so complex: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycbe/downloads/pdf/nycchecklist_restaurantsigns.pdf http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycbe/downloads/pdf/nycchecklist_res.... OP's examples were not obscure subsection g part 4 item iii-type stuff. They are basic things you'd think about if you were considering the impact of your business on the public.

Spooky23 10y ago

Easiest way to handle this is invite the local alderman over to lunch and contribute a few hundred dollars to his campaign. Also invite the cops in. If you give the impression that you're connected, these things go away. Plus, a few hundred bucks means your phone call gets picked up.

puppymaster 10y ago

I agree. Especially in Manhattan where spot check is taken very seriously by the authority. You can see health reports on all restaurants in NYC here http://safediningnyc.com http://safediningnyc.com

cylinder 10y ago
Doesn't seem to work. I regularly get sick eating here, and I've had my worst bout of food poisoning ever (week long). I never had food poisoning before in my life. I never eat anywhere below A either.

maverick_iceman 10y ago

"If it moves tax it, if it keeps moving regulate it, if it stops moving subsidise it." - Ronald Reagan

thret 10y ago

It sounds like he was supposed to bribe them but was too innocent to realise.

stevenwiles 10y ago

I mean... regulations exist for a reason. You think someone is over at city hall making these up as they go for no reason? Sounds like your friend could have done a better job educating himself before he started.