4 ms·

I'm really happy this is the case. I'm not the biggest fan of the ASP.NET ecosystem, but I'm becoming increasingly aware of how desperately the Java ecosystem

I'm really happy this is the case. I'm not the biggest fan of the ASP.NET ecosystem, but I'm becoming increasingly aware of how desperately the Java ecosystem needs genuine competition. This can only be another forcing function on other major ecosystems. It's also the case that people have made credible points about how the windows platform actually provides better performance per price point for specific types of applications. While I found that very surprising, I think that ultimately we need to follow the data and provide similar pressure on Linux's I/O performance.

Locke1689 10y ago
If you haven't already pinged one of my colleagues I'd be happy to hear your rants regarding .NET :) ( angocke @ msft )
- KirinDave 10y ago
  I'll let you know once I play with the new drop for .NET Core.
copperx 10y ago
> I'm becoming increasingly aware of how desperately the Java ecosystem needs genuine competition Do you mind expounding on that? Is Java that much of a major player on the backend? I didn't think so; especially for new startups.
- KirinDave 10y ago
  > Is Java that much of a major player on the backend? I didn't think so; especially for new startups. ... Yes? Clojure and Scala are quite popular and normal. Java itself is still extremely common. Even if you end up writing your API endpoint in Node or Go, odds are you'll still end up using sidecar infrastructure that's written or maintained in Java. The competitors are: - Node, which simply has a hard time scaling. This gets better every year, but it is sort of in the "you do this and then commit to a larger capex" category along with Python. You can do it and many do. - Go. Go is a funny language. It's quite good for small projects, but completely fails to scale for large projects due to issues with error handling. - Rust. I don't think this sees wide adoption in the startup space yet, though. - Nim. At least as cool as rust, but even more neglected. - Haskell & OCaml: Lots of TALK but not many actual shipped products use this stack. Some pretty impressive groups do though. Just my opinion though.
  - jsmith0295 10y ago
    I'd have to disagree with Go not scaling for large projects. A primary goal of it's design was to be good for large projects, and there's plenty of large and/or complex codebases that have been written in Go. Docker, Kubernetes, and a lot of things in the CoreOS ecosystem specifically.
    - KirinDave 10y ago
      The error handing is terrible and it's well known it's a problem. It's a really bad situation. It's not to say you can't do anything with the language, just that you need to really understand the tools and strategies that mitigate the deficiencies and be prepared from day 1 to exercise them, or your project is in for growing pains. What's more, I do not think the community has "solved" for those strategies. I know google internally has one set of guidelines, but other teams and orgs do other stuff. Quite frankly, there are many aspects of its design that ended up being sub-optimal for large codebases. Look at the profound about-face the language took on bundling as an example. We can bandy about all we want about this, but uh... certainly as a longtime user of Kubernetes I can say, "They have found ways to deal with the language's error handling."
      - jsmith0295 10y ago
        The lack of a good debugger is something that sort of scares me personally. From what I've read it seems like you can sort of use GDB, and there's some experimental tools, which doesn't sound nearly as good as what you can get out of something even as new as Swift.
    - jacques_chester 10y ago
      I dislike Go intensely, but nothing else currently fits its niche as well. For a large or complex codebase, I nominate Cloud Foundry. About 1.5M SLOC of Go (1.8M LOC) in the main cloudfoundry repos[0]. Almost all new development is in Go. There's still about 370KSLOC (470K LOC) of Ruby. Eventually most of it will be replaced, which will drive that Go codebase up a lot. Disclosure: I work for Pivotal. Lots of my colleagues wrote most of that Go. I for one pity them, but they seem to have enjoyed it. [0] https://www.openhub.net/p/cloudfoundry https://www.openhub.net/p/cloudfoundry

Locke1689 10y ago

If you haven't already pinged one of my colleagues I'd be happy to hear your rants regarding .NET :) ( angocke @ msft )

KirinDave 10y ago
I'll let you know once I play with the new drop for .NET Core.

copperx 10y ago

> I'm becoming increasingly aware of how desperately the Java ecosystem needs genuine competition Do you mind expounding on that? Is Java that much of a major player on the backend? I didn't think so; especially for new startups.

KirinDave 10y ago
> Is Java that much of a major player on the backend? I didn't think so; especially for new startups. ... Yes? Clojure and Scala are quite popular and normal. Java itself is still extremely common. Even if you end up writing your API endpoint in Node or Go, odds are you'll still end up using sidecar infrastructure that's written or maintained in Java. The competitors are: - Node, which simply has a hard time scaling. This gets better every year, but it is sort of in the "you do this and then commit to a larger capex" category along with Python. You can do it and many do. - Go. Go is a funny language. It's quite good for small projects, but completely fails to scale for large projects due to issues with error handling. - Rust. I don't think this sees wide adoption in the startup space yet, though. - Nim. At least as cool as rust, but even more neglected. - Haskell & OCaml: Lots of TALK but not many actual shipped products use this stack. Some pretty impressive groups do though. Just my opinion though.
- jsmith0295 10y ago
  I'd have to disagree with Go not scaling for large projects. A primary goal of it's design was to be good for large projects, and there's plenty of large and/or complex codebases that have been written in Go. Docker, Kubernetes, and a lot of things in the CoreOS ecosystem specifically.
  - KirinDave 10y ago
    The error handing is terrible and it's well known it's a problem. It's a really bad situation. It's not to say you can't do anything with the language, just that you need to really understand the tools and strategies that mitigate the deficiencies and be prepared from day 1 to exercise them, or your project is in for growing pains. What's more, I do not think the community has "solved" for those strategies. I know google internally has one set of guidelines, but other teams and orgs do other stuff. Quite frankly, there are many aspects of its design that ended up being sub-optimal for large codebases. Look at the profound about-face the language took on bundling as an example. We can bandy about all we want about this, but uh... certainly as a longtime user of Kubernetes I can say, "They have found ways to deal with the language's error handling."
    - jsmith0295 10y ago
      The lack of a good debugger is something that sort of scares me personally. From what I've read it seems like you can sort of use GDB, and there's some experimental tools, which doesn't sound nearly as good as what you can get out of something even as new as Swift.
  - jacques_chester 10y ago
    I dislike Go intensely, but nothing else currently fits its niche as well. For a large or complex codebase, I nominate Cloud Foundry. About 1.5M SLOC of Go (1.8M LOC) in the main cloudfoundry repos[0]. Almost all new development is in Go. There's still about 370KSLOC (470K LOC) of Ruby. Eventually most of it will be replaced, which will drive that Go codebase up a lot. Disclosure: I work for Pivotal. Lots of my colleagues wrote most of that Go. I for one pity them, but they seem to have enjoyed it. [0] https://www.openhub.net/p/cloudfoundry https://www.openhub.net/p/cloudfoundry