9 ms·

What goes wrong in the brain chemistry of a gambling addict?

100 points by pmcpinto 10y ago

M_Grey 10y ago
This was an entertaining read, but it seems like fairly old information in regards the role of the dopamine reward system in addiction in general. We already know with a pretty high degree of confidence, that chemicals and behaviors which act to "hijack" that system are almost inevitably addictive. What isn't so well understood is why some people are so much more vulnerable to that process, and others so resistant, not to mention the continuum between them. Unfortunately as far as I can read, this article doesn't offer any new information on that critical issue.
- irishcoffee 10y ago
  > What isn't so well understood is why some people are so much more vulnerable to that process, and others so resistant, not to mention the continuum between them. Unfortunately as far as I can read, this article doesn't offer any new information on that critical issue. "Like most addictions, Townsend-Lyon’s gambling problem didn’t come out of nowhere. Similar to most women with addiction, she’d had a traumatic childhood—including emotional and physical abuse and ongoing sexual abuse by a close family member and another perpetrator. Also, like most women with addiction, she had pre-existing psychiatric problems; in her case, obsessive-compulsive disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, and bipolar disorder. Studies of addicts show that trauma and certain genetic vulnerabilities—especially the two in combination—increase risk for a wide range of mental illnesses and a bewildering spectrum of addictions that include gambling, sex, alcohol, and opioids. The availability of escapist drugs and activities help determine what form the problem takes. But gambling and drugs themselves don’t cause addiction, a myth that often interferes with getting to the personal root of the problem."
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    That's more of a list of potential causes rather than working theories to explain them. After all, it's really boiling down to, "Well it's something to do with nature, nurture, or a combination of the two." We know that, what isn't so well known is just how that works and why some people with those risk factors don't seem to have the same problems as others who do.
    - astazangasta 10y ago
      >what isn't so well known is just how that works What isn't well-known to me is what you'd accept as an explanation of "just how that works" - are you looking for a psychological explanation? A biochemical one? An anthropological one?
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        A complete theory which can predict behavior and the correct responses to behavior, and which stands the test of time. I'm not sure how to label that... scientific?
        tremon 10y ago
        I hope we never achieve that level of proficiency in psychology (and in a way, we already do -- look at ads, and in-game purchasing strategies). I'm not at all interested in a world where individuals can be reduced to automatons for whom we can "predict and elicit the correct responses to behaviour".
        M_Grey 10y ago
        A complete theory of the dopamine reward system and its role in addiction, not a complete theory of every human being's psyche... is what I was pretty clearly talking about in context. No need to go all "future crime" on me and drag this so far off topic into the realm of speculation.
        posterboy 10y ago
        instead of awareness about the limbic system I suppose gamblers, smokers, etc just lack statistical reasoning and other abilities that would inhibit the dream of winning. With the limbic system, maybe the strength varies and some are literally weak. Or, they underestimate the strength, perhaps because of statistical reasoning again. Most likely the effects vary individually. On the other hand, because of the limbic system everyone can become addicted. some people just take their chances and others are weary.
  - lexhaynes 10y ago
    I would have liked to know more about those "certain genetic vulnerabilities". Detailing THOSE would have made this article much more interesting. I'm disinclined to read the writer's book because of how rehashed her theory is.
- restalis 10y ago
  As far as I could observe, on myself and others alike, it's about wether the transition happens under the radar or not. Being warned at the right time, forced to look at one's own condition and admit the degree of danger it carries if left as is, is usually enough to save the victim. There is more than that, of course. It all boils down to the amount of available willpower, which can be affected by a lot of factors. That willpower is also what prevents one's relapse, which an obvious fact for everyone, I suppose. What I'm not sure everyone is aware of is that willpower can be trained, the best starting from an early age. (Also, the willpower is not the same as discipline. Discipline is taken care of in schools, willpower training not so much.)
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    Anecdotally I absolutely agree with you; the role of "mindfulness" can't be understated.
  - projektir 10y ago
    On the other hand, this doesn't align with my experiences or what I read at all. Alcohol seems to be extremely dangerous for certain groups of people, which is why they often choose not to drink at all, ever. While many other people can have the occasional drink and it doesn't go beyond that. In fact, that's a pattern I've noticed: there are people who will often not touch certain substances, activities, etc., for fear that they will get addicted to it. It seems to take less willpower to just not do it compared to doing a moderate amount of it. Meanwhile, I don't seem to get addicted to anything whatsoever and I don't think awareness or willpower has anything to do with it. The key thing is just that I don't develop much of reaction and I can easily forget about the substance/activity. It just doesn't stick. It's not that I'm actively resisting a desire, /I just don't have one/. Another thing that doesn't stick for me? Habits. I wonder if these two are related. Most people seem to develop habits much faster and better than I do. > What I'm not sure everyone is aware of is that willpower can be trained, the best starting from an early age. I'm very curious what you're basing this on. I would say that is quite a claim to make. And how far? For whom? Is there a cap? Does it depends? Last time I tried to look up willpower trainability, hoping for some solid resources, I came up short. I haven't observed that my willpower ever increased. If anything, it decreases over time if I try to apply it to the same thing. If I went to do something for a month, it's harder to do it next month. I can make a given activity take less willpower. I can become more efficient at it. I can apply motivational tricks. But the amount of actual willpower seems to stay roughly the same and relying on it is a recipe for disaster in my case. Willpower trainability is in the same bucket as things like ego depletion and stereotype threat and smiling causes happiness and all those other things that I would take with a pound of salt due to the complexities of studying such things.
lintiness 10y ago
not sure why, but the use of the word "wrong" just bothers me. why can't a gambling addict be an experimental variation that MAY result in something game-changing (i'd bet a lot of the greatest entrepreneurs are basically risk addicted gamblers).
- phillc73 10y ago
  Maybe, with relation to entrepeneurs, but I think there are fundamental differences between business (and sports betting or poker) compared to casino games like slots and roulette. Regarding the former, hard work and study can affect the outcome. The latter are machine programmed and can't be beaten. I don't know, but wouldn't be surprised if these two types of gambling attracted different types of people.
  - Relys 10y ago
    Math is the difference. Casino games are a tax on people who can't do math.
    - phillc73 10y ago
      Perhaps that is true for poker and sports betting (although I don't believe tertiary level mathematics is a pre-requisite), but you don't necessarily need to be good at maths to be successful in business. Dedication, vision, relationships and a whole host of other factors combine in successful business management, which can go a long way towards mitigating risk.
    - ryandrake 10y ago
      Many things are negative-EV that do not have the stigma of casino gambling, but we don't ridicule participants' math skills. On average, start-up founders lose money. Are they all as ignorant of math as gamblers? In fact, I would guess that most human activity is negative-EV.
  - tremon 10y ago
    hard work and study can effect the outcome Affect
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ajankovic 10y ago
I hate gambling but observing some recent changes in my behaviour this sentence strike a chord: > The high is in expecting an outcome, desiring it, imagining it, not in its fulfillment. I am staring at unfinished side projects of mine and they are staring back at me.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  It also explains everyone you've met who binge eats and then regrets it, and a lot of other behaviors.
- turc1656 10y ago
  Yes, exactly! I am experiencing the same issue. But, I am happy to say I've made significant headway on one project recently. Didn't get the result I wanted, so it's back to the drawing board (sigh).
- manaskarekar 10y ago
  "After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but is often true.” -- Spock https://youtu.be/-wtYGZt7aI4 https://youtu.be/-wtYGZt7aI4
  - encoderer 10y ago
    > Expectation is the purest, most reliable form of pleasure - Flaubert (From memory, paraphrasing)
    - Jun8 10y ago
      Your memory is good but I think that was the form given in a Dawson's Creek episode (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0555133/quotes http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0555133/quotes). The one that Goodreads and other sites attribute to Flaubert is: "Pleasure is found first in anticipation, later in memory." I couldn't find a source for this but I think rather than Flaubert this is from Julian Barnes's book Flaubert's Parrot, which has: “Remember the botched brothel-visit in L’Education sentimentale and remember its lesson. Do not participate: happiness lies in the imagination, not the act. Pleasure is found first in anticipation, later in memory.” (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1414912-flaubert-s-parrot https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1414912-flaubert-s-par...). This quote does not appear in the full text of that book, though (https://archive.org/stream/sentimentaleduca00flauiala/sentimentaleduca00flauiala_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/sentimentaleduca00flauiala/sentim...). I totally agree with the sentiment expressed, of course. The real lover not being as beautiful or desirable as the imagined version is a common motif esp. in Middle Eastern literature.
js8 10y ago
"But since addiction is defined as compulsive behavior that continues in the face of punishment, punishment is clearly not the best way to deal with it. Dozens of studies show that shame, confrontation, and humiliation are ineffective and can backfire when used in addiction treatment." I suspect this is case with many things, that punishment is ineffective. Punishment ultimately assumes people are acting rationally, and they often do not.
- sp332 10y ago
  The worse "reality" gets, the better the escape looks. That's not even irrational, it's more like an emotional bankruptcy. If you don't have the emotional capital to address your current problems, things get even worse, but you still don't have the ability to address them. You need some kind of coping credit... Not sure where this analogy is going anymore but it could be interesting.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Whenever I talk to people about the death penalty and harsh punishments such as torture, I like to point out just how irrational criminals often are. People do not commit a crime (most times) expecting to be caught, and so the penalty phase isn't a factor. There are many reasons why people act that way, but the bottom line is that they do. The result is that the only way to impress upon people that crime "doesn't pay", is to make the rate of solving crimes in general much higher. That's... REALLY hard, expensive, it's nuanced and it takes time. Making punishments more draconian is easy, stroke of the pen easy, and it makes angry people feel good. They can't imagine that harsh punishments don't send some kind of message, because to them it does. Sadly...
  - corin_ 10y ago
    > The result is that the only way to impress upon people that crime "doesn't pay", is to make the rate of solving crimes in general much higher. There's actually two sides to it: you can lower the upside to crime, or raise the upside to non-crime. Things like better education, job creation, better social security benefits, etc. all contribute to lowering people's need/desire to commit crimes.
jomamaxx 10y ago
I wonder what evolutionary pressures caused humans to have these qualities? Surely the dopamine response in a crude way - but can we link the actual 'gambling-like' elements to human behaviours that might have been beneficial? 'Fear' keeps us away from Bears and cliffs ... but risk and gambling? Tricky one.
- toasterlovin 10y ago
  In most forms of organized gambling, the odds are against you, so the behavior only has negative outcomes. In real life, this is not always the case. Lots of the most successful people you're aware of (CEOs, VCs, actors, musicians, politicians, etc) probably took a series of pretty insane risks at some point in their life. If they had not, they would just be normal people. But they did, and they got a huge payoff. That's why risk taking is wired into many of us.
  - ssharp 10y ago
    > In most forms of organized gambling, the odds are against you, so the behavior only has negative outcomes. I think lottery jackpot winners would disagree with that. You're only guaranteed a negative outcome in these types of games when you've iterated enough times to reach a statistical conclusion. In the meantime, short-term luck in the game's variance could earn you a lot of money or lose you far more than you'd expect. If the expected value of $1 bet in blackjack is $0.99, the return of a single hand will never be that; it would be -$1, $0, $1, $1.50, etc.
- rz2k 10y ago
  I think that's an interesting question. On a site devoted to entrepreneurship, taking risks sounds pretty good. And, due to survivorship bias even poorly calculated risks will sound good. Perhaps there's a real world bias as well. Historically, humans had many more children than would live long enough to bear children. Those who played it safe wouldn't thrive enough to have a lot of children. Those who did take a lot of risks either got erased from the record, or went on to have a lot of children. Genghis Khan is probably the best example! Furthering the idea, bears and cliffs are risky, but a sensible human would have been even more afraid of other humans. And yet, the most cosmopolitan societies tend to be the most successful in terms of demographic health measures as well as economic, political, and even military strength. Just as it's said that mobsters may be some of the most cautious investors of their accumulated wealth, places where people or more risky in terms of not "othering" as many people get a lot of benefits from the ready trust they place in their neighbors.
bwanab 10y ago
I heard a lecture from a guy who'd made a fortune on a trading desk then got a Ph.D in psychology. Many of the same characteristics are going on with traders. But there's a twist. Since there's an arguable logic to trading, once a trader makes a good trade and experiences that high, in order to achieve a similar high the next time, the trade has to be more extreme. Each time he/she is convinced in their own intelligence. This pattern continues unabated (in the absence of meaningful oversight which is rarely given when someone's on a roll) until the trader blows up completely. His further commentary was that while the trader is going strong, huge rewards accrue to the trader and management. When it blows up, often, instead of instituting any meaningful oversight, the trader and management are fired, new people hired who have no institutional memory of the previous problem.
- appleiigs 10y ago
  Yeah, the incentives on wall street hugely promote risks. You'll get paid a huge bonus if your bet pays off. And then downsides are limited to just losing your job, in which case you just go get a new one.
appleiigs 10y ago
I've gambled a lot with poker and sports betting (where you're against other people), but always felt like a dumb ass when I played those casino games (blackjack, craps). Such a strong negative feedback loop to me. I never understood how people could get addicted to gambling. I can imagine drug addiction, you get that high right away - positive feedback loop. Interesting that just expecting the outcome in gambling can cause addiction. For the serious poker players, they train themselves to ignore the results. Being results-oriented is a bad thing. Making the correct decision before the result is the focus. Educational article for me.
- r00fus 10y ago
  Dunno, for me, blackjack was great for meeting others - I was always having interesting side discussions with people I was with, or I wanted to get with. The gambling and drinks were just social lubricants. Of course, I always limit myself with a set amount of cash, and leave the cards in the room... if I win, great. If I don't that's my price for the time spent (at the lowest buy-in tables).
shadowfax80 10y ago
How about the brain chemistry of asian compulsive gamblers? You can be in the middle of Ohio where it's 99% white people, step into a casino and it's chinatown.
- Kadin 10y ago
  That probably has to do with cultural preferences for the type of gambling that's happening in the casino. I'd suspect pretty strongly that if you looked at other forms of gambling (lottery tickets, scratchers, bingo halls, etc.) you'd see a more representative cross-section of the population.
frankosaurus 10y ago
Walking past senior citizens whiling away hours at Vegas slot machines, I've often wondered how things would be different if they'd grown up in a time of ubiquitous video games. Will today's generation, who spends time playing free mobile games, been as keen to spend money for slots when they get older?
- chadgeidel 10y ago
  I'm not quite a senior citizen so this is purely anecdotal. (I also have no desire to gamble whatsoever, so this probably makes it even more anecdotal) I grew up with video games - modern slots and "video poker" hold absolutely zero appeal to me. They are worse than the most horrible 2600 games from my youth. They simply aren't "fun" and a casino owner would get way more money from me with a Galaga or Pac-man arcade machine (not my favorite games by far) than any fancy "video slot machine".
  - cloudjacker 10y ago
    I was inclined to agree, until I found the gloriously cheesy Centerfold slot arcade and a few others that are pretty fun rides when they choose to take you on one. My first time trying out the actual "pull down the slot handle" machine was mindnumbingly boring.
- ryuker16 10y ago
  These casinos offer alot more than games...tons of discounts, cheap food, comps, advertisements aimed at seniors, a community of seniors always there, etc. Nearly every fun business ignores seniors except casinos. Night clubs dont want them, tv doesnt want them, gaming doesnt want them, etc. when was the last time your local bar had a seniors night? At a casino, its senior night every day.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Lio 10y ago
For those in the UK or with access to BBC iPlayer, Panorama just broadcast this reportage programme on fixed odds betting terminals which briefly mentions how they exploit brain chemistry in gambling addicts. http://bbc.in/2cRJ9j0 http://bbc.in/2cRJ9j0 It also speculates why there are suddenly so many betting shops clustering in UK high streets. Spoiler: it's because the number of terminals per shop is legally limited and the bookies want to get a large number in a small area.
randomgyatwork 10y ago
When I didn't have much else going on with my life, the excitement of getting a high score on a video game made me feel better and gave a sense of accomplishment.

100 points by pmcpinto 10y ago

This was an entertaining read, but it seems like fairly old information in regards the role of the dopamine reward system in addiction in general. We already know with a pretty high degree of confidence, that chemicals and behaviors which act to "hijack" that system are almost inevitably addictive. What isn't so well understood is why some people are so much more vulnerable to that process, and others so resistant, not to mention the continuum between them. Unfortunately as far as I can read, this article doesn't offer any new information on that critical issue.

irishcoffee 10y ago
> What isn't so well understood is why some people are so much more vulnerable to that process, and others so resistant, not to mention the continuum between them. Unfortunately as far as I can read, this article doesn't offer any new information on that critical issue. "Like most addictions, Townsend-Lyon’s gambling problem didn’t come out of nowhere. Similar to most women with addiction, she’d had a traumatic childhood—including emotional and physical abuse and ongoing sexual abuse by a close family member and another perpetrator. Also, like most women with addiction, she had pre-existing psychiatric problems; in her case, obsessive-compulsive disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, and bipolar disorder. Studies of addicts show that trauma and certain genetic vulnerabilities—especially the two in combination—increase risk for a wide range of mental illnesses and a bewildering spectrum of addictions that include gambling, sex, alcohol, and opioids. The availability of escapist drugs and activities help determine what form the problem takes. But gambling and drugs themselves don’t cause addiction, a myth that often interferes with getting to the personal root of the problem."
- M_Grey 10y ago
  That's more of a list of potential causes rather than working theories to explain them. After all, it's really boiling down to, "Well it's something to do with nature, nurture, or a combination of the two." We know that, what isn't so well known is just how that works and why some people with those risk factors don't seem to have the same problems as others who do.
  - astazangasta 10y ago
    >what isn't so well known is just how that works What isn't well-known to me is what you'd accept as an explanation of "just how that works" - are you looking for a psychological explanation? A biochemical one? An anthropological one?
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      A complete theory which can predict behavior and the correct responses to behavior, and which stands the test of time. I'm not sure how to label that... scientific?
      - tremon 10y ago
        I hope we never achieve that level of proficiency in psychology (and in a way, we already do -- look at ads, and in-game purchasing strategies). I'm not at all interested in a world where individuals can be reduced to automatons for whom we can "predict and elicit the correct responses to behaviour".
        M_Grey 10y ago
        A complete theory of the dopamine reward system and its role in addiction, not a complete theory of every human being's psyche... is what I was pretty clearly talking about in context. No need to go all "future crime" on me and drag this so far off topic into the realm of speculation.
        posterboy 10y ago
        instead of awareness about the limbic system I suppose gamblers, smokers, etc just lack statistical reasoning and other abilities that would inhibit the dream of winning. With the limbic system, maybe the strength varies and some are literally weak. Or, they underestimate the strength, perhaps because of statistical reasoning again. Most likely the effects vary individually. On the other hand, because of the limbic system everyone can become addicted. some people just take their chances and others are weary.
- lexhaynes 10y ago
  I would have liked to know more about those "certain genetic vulnerabilities". Detailing THOSE would have made this article much more interesting. I'm disinclined to read the writer's book because of how rehashed her theory is.
restalis 10y ago
As far as I could observe, on myself and others alike, it's about wether the transition happens under the radar or not. Being warned at the right time, forced to look at one's own condition and admit the degree of danger it carries if left as is, is usually enough to save the victim. There is more than that, of course. It all boils down to the amount of available willpower, which can be affected by a lot of factors. That willpower is also what prevents one's relapse, which an obvious fact for everyone, I suppose. What I'm not sure everyone is aware of is that willpower can be trained, the best starting from an early age. (Also, the willpower is not the same as discipline. Discipline is taken care of in schools, willpower training not so much.)
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Anecdotally I absolutely agree with you; the role of "mindfulness" can't be understated.
- projektir 10y ago
  On the other hand, this doesn't align with my experiences or what I read at all. Alcohol seems to be extremely dangerous for certain groups of people, which is why they often choose not to drink at all, ever. While many other people can have the occasional drink and it doesn't go beyond that. In fact, that's a pattern I've noticed: there are people who will often not touch certain substances, activities, etc., for fear that they will get addicted to it. It seems to take less willpower to just not do it compared to doing a moderate amount of it. Meanwhile, I don't seem to get addicted to anything whatsoever and I don't think awareness or willpower has anything to do with it. The key thing is just that I don't develop much of reaction and I can easily forget about the substance/activity. It just doesn't stick. It's not that I'm actively resisting a desire, /I just don't have one/. Another thing that doesn't stick for me? Habits. I wonder if these two are related. Most people seem to develop habits much faster and better than I do. > What I'm not sure everyone is aware of is that willpower can be trained, the best starting from an early age. I'm very curious what you're basing this on. I would say that is quite a claim to make. And how far? For whom? Is there a cap? Does it depends? Last time I tried to look up willpower trainability, hoping for some solid resources, I came up short. I haven't observed that my willpower ever increased. If anything, it decreases over time if I try to apply it to the same thing. If I went to do something for a month, it's harder to do it next month. I can make a given activity take less willpower. I can become more efficient at it. I can apply motivational tricks. But the amount of actual willpower seems to stay roughly the same and relying on it is a recipe for disaster in my case. Willpower trainability is in the same bucket as things like ego depletion and stereotype threat and smiling causes happiness and all those other things that I would take with a pound of salt due to the complexities of studying such things.

lintiness 10y ago

not sure why, but the use of the word "wrong" just bothers me. why can't a gambling addict be an experimental variation that MAY result in something game-changing (i'd bet a lot of the greatest entrepreneurs are basically risk addicted gamblers).

phillc73 10y ago
Maybe, with relation to entrepeneurs, but I think there are fundamental differences between business (and sports betting or poker) compared to casino games like slots and roulette. Regarding the former, hard work and study can affect the outcome. The latter are machine programmed and can't be beaten. I don't know, but wouldn't be surprised if these two types of gambling attracted different types of people.
- Relys 10y ago
  Math is the difference. Casino games are a tax on people who can't do math.
  - phillc73 10y ago
    Perhaps that is true for poker and sports betting (although I don't believe tertiary level mathematics is a pre-requisite), but you don't necessarily need to be good at maths to be successful in business. Dedication, vision, relationships and a whole host of other factors combine in successful business management, which can go a long way towards mitigating risk.
  - ryandrake 10y ago
    Many things are negative-EV that do not have the stigma of casino gambling, but we don't ridicule participants' math skills. On average, start-up founders lose money. Are they all as ignorant of math as gamblers? In fact, I would guess that most human activity is negative-EV.
- tremon 10y ago
  hard work and study can effect the outcome Affect

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ajankovic 10y ago

I hate gambling but observing some recent changes in my behaviour this sentence strike a chord: > The high is in expecting an outcome, desiring it, imagining it, not in its fulfillment. I am staring at unfinished side projects of mine and they are staring back at me.

M_Grey 10y ago
It also explains everyone you've met who binge eats and then regrets it, and a lot of other behaviors.
turc1656 10y ago
Yes, exactly! I am experiencing the same issue. But, I am happy to say I've made significant headway on one project recently. Didn't get the result I wanted, so it's back to the drawing board (sigh).
manaskarekar 10y ago
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but is often true.” -- Spock https://youtu.be/-wtYGZt7aI4 https://youtu.be/-wtYGZt7aI4
- encoderer 10y ago
  > Expectation is the purest, most reliable form of pleasure - Flaubert (From memory, paraphrasing)
  - Jun8 10y ago
    Your memory is good but I think that was the form given in a Dawson's Creek episode (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0555133/quotes http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0555133/quotes). The one that Goodreads and other sites attribute to Flaubert is: "Pleasure is found first in anticipation, later in memory." I couldn't find a source for this but I think rather than Flaubert this is from Julian Barnes's book Flaubert's Parrot, which has: “Remember the botched brothel-visit in L’Education sentimentale and remember its lesson. Do not participate: happiness lies in the imagination, not the act. Pleasure is found first in anticipation, later in memory.” (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1414912-flaubert-s-parrot https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1414912-flaubert-s-par...). This quote does not appear in the full text of that book, though (https://archive.org/stream/sentimentaleduca00flauiala/sentimentaleduca00flauiala_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/sentimentaleduca00flauiala/sentim...). I totally agree with the sentiment expressed, of course. The real lover not being as beautiful or desirable as the imagined version is a common motif esp. in Middle Eastern literature.

js8 10y ago

"But since addiction is defined as compulsive behavior that continues in the face of punishment, punishment is clearly not the best way to deal with it. Dozens of studies show that shame, confrontation, and humiliation are ineffective and can backfire when used in addiction treatment." I suspect this is case with many things, that punishment is ineffective. Punishment ultimately assumes people are acting rationally, and they often do not.

sp332 10y ago
The worse "reality" gets, the better the escape looks. That's not even irrational, it's more like an emotional bankruptcy. If you don't have the emotional capital to address your current problems, things get even worse, but you still don't have the ability to address them. You need some kind of coping credit... Not sure where this analogy is going anymore but it could be interesting.
M_Grey 10y ago
Whenever I talk to people about the death penalty and harsh punishments such as torture, I like to point out just how irrational criminals often are. People do not commit a crime (most times) expecting to be caught, and so the penalty phase isn't a factor. There are many reasons why people act that way, but the bottom line is that they do. The result is that the only way to impress upon people that crime "doesn't pay", is to make the rate of solving crimes in general much higher. That's... REALLY hard, expensive, it's nuanced and it takes time. Making punishments more draconian is easy, stroke of the pen easy, and it makes angry people feel good. They can't imagine that harsh punishments don't send some kind of message, because to them it does. Sadly...
- corin_ 10y ago
  > The result is that the only way to impress upon people that crime "doesn't pay", is to make the rate of solving crimes in general much higher. There's actually two sides to it: you can lower the upside to crime, or raise the upside to non-crime. Things like better education, job creation, better social security benefits, etc. all contribute to lowering people's need/desire to commit crimes.

jomamaxx 10y ago

I wonder what evolutionary pressures caused humans to have these qualities? Surely the dopamine response in a crude way - but can we link the actual 'gambling-like' elements to human behaviours that might have been beneficial? 'Fear' keeps us away from Bears and cliffs ... but risk and gambling? Tricky one.

toasterlovin 10y ago
In most forms of organized gambling, the odds are against you, so the behavior only has negative outcomes. In real life, this is not always the case. Lots of the most successful people you're aware of (CEOs, VCs, actors, musicians, politicians, etc) probably took a series of pretty insane risks at some point in their life. If they had not, they would just be normal people. But they did, and they got a huge payoff. That's why risk taking is wired into many of us.
- ssharp 10y ago
  > In most forms of organized gambling, the odds are against you, so the behavior only has negative outcomes. I think lottery jackpot winners would disagree with that. You're only guaranteed a negative outcome in these types of games when you've iterated enough times to reach a statistical conclusion. In the meantime, short-term luck in the game's variance could earn you a lot of money or lose you far more than you'd expect. If the expected value of $1 bet in blackjack is $0.99, the return of a single hand will never be that; it would be -$1, $0, $1, $1.50, etc.
rz2k 10y ago
I think that's an interesting question. On a site devoted to entrepreneurship, taking risks sounds pretty good. And, due to survivorship bias even poorly calculated risks will sound good. Perhaps there's a real world bias as well. Historically, humans had many more children than would live long enough to bear children. Those who played it safe wouldn't thrive enough to have a lot of children. Those who did take a lot of risks either got erased from the record, or went on to have a lot of children. Genghis Khan is probably the best example! Furthering the idea, bears and cliffs are risky, but a sensible human would have been even more afraid of other humans. And yet, the most cosmopolitan societies tend to be the most successful in terms of demographic health measures as well as economic, political, and even military strength. Just as it's said that mobsters may be some of the most cautious investors of their accumulated wealth, places where people or more risky in terms of not "othering" as many people get a lot of benefits from the ready trust they place in their neighbors.

bwanab 10y ago

I heard a lecture from a guy who'd made a fortune on a trading desk then got a Ph.D in psychology. Many of the same characteristics are going on with traders. But there's a twist. Since there's an arguable logic to trading, once a trader makes a good trade and experiences that high, in order to achieve a similar high the next time, the trade has to be more extreme. Each time he/she is convinced in their own intelligence. This pattern continues unabated (in the absence of meaningful oversight which is rarely given when someone's on a roll) until the trader blows up completely. His further commentary was that while the trader is going strong, huge rewards accrue to the trader and management. When it blows up, often, instead of instituting any meaningful oversight, the trader and management are fired, new people hired who have no institutional memory of the previous problem.

appleiigs 10y ago
Yeah, the incentives on wall street hugely promote risks. You'll get paid a huge bonus if your bet pays off. And then downsides are limited to just losing your job, in which case you just go get a new one.

appleiigs 10y ago

I've gambled a lot with poker and sports betting (where you're against other people), but always felt like a dumb ass when I played those casino games (blackjack, craps). Such a strong negative feedback loop to me. I never understood how people could get addicted to gambling. I can imagine drug addiction, you get that high right away - positive feedback loop. Interesting that just expecting the outcome in gambling can cause addiction. For the serious poker players, they train themselves to ignore the results. Being results-oriented is a bad thing. Making the correct decision before the result is the focus. Educational article for me.

r00fus 10y ago
Dunno, for me, blackjack was great for meeting others - I was always having interesting side discussions with people I was with, or I wanted to get with. The gambling and drinks were just social lubricants. Of course, I always limit myself with a set amount of cash, and leave the cards in the room... if I win, great. If I don't that's my price for the time spent (at the lowest buy-in tables).

shadowfax80 10y ago

How about the brain chemistry of asian compulsive gamblers? You can be in the middle of Ohio where it's 99% white people, step into a casino and it's chinatown.

Kadin 10y ago
That probably has to do with cultural preferences for the type of gambling that's happening in the casino. I'd suspect pretty strongly that if you looked at other forms of gambling (lottery tickets, scratchers, bingo halls, etc.) you'd see a more representative cross-section of the population.

frankosaurus 10y ago

Walking past senior citizens whiling away hours at Vegas slot machines, I've often wondered how things would be different if they'd grown up in a time of ubiquitous video games. Will today's generation, who spends time playing free mobile games, been as keen to spend money for slots when they get older?

chadgeidel 10y ago
I'm not quite a senior citizen so this is purely anecdotal. (I also have no desire to gamble whatsoever, so this probably makes it even more anecdotal) I grew up with video games - modern slots and "video poker" hold absolutely zero appeal to me. They are worse than the most horrible 2600 games from my youth. They simply aren't "fun" and a casino owner would get way more money from me with a Galaga or Pac-man arcade machine (not my favorite games by far) than any fancy "video slot machine".
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  I was inclined to agree, until I found the gloriously cheesy Centerfold slot arcade and a few others that are pretty fun rides when they choose to take you on one. My first time trying out the actual "pull down the slot handle" machine was mindnumbingly boring.
ryuker16 10y ago
These casinos offer alot more than games...tons of discounts, cheap food, comps, advertisements aimed at seniors, a community of seniors always there, etc. Nearly every fun business ignores seniors except casinos. Night clubs dont want them, tv doesnt want them, gaming doesnt want them, etc. when was the last time your local bar had a seniors night? At a casino, its senior night every day.
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Lio 10y ago

For those in the UK or with access to BBC iPlayer, Panorama just broadcast this reportage programme on fixed odds betting terminals which briefly mentions how they exploit brain chemistry in gambling addicts. http://bbc.in/2cRJ9j0 http://bbc.in/2cRJ9j0 It also speculates why there are suddenly so many betting shops clustering in UK high streets. Spoiler: it's because the number of terminals per shop is legally limited and the bookies want to get a large number in a small area.

randomgyatwork 10y ago

When I didn't have much else going on with my life, the excitement of getting a high score on a video game made me feel better and gave a sense of accomplishment.