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This kind of reminds me of something Louis CK said during this talk about George Carlin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R37zkizucPU https://www.youtube.com/wat

This kind of reminds me of something Louis CK said during this talk about George Carlin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R37zkizucPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R37zkizucPU He talks about how he got good at standup after 15 years of doing the same thing. He threw away all his material (material he'd been working on for 15 years) and just started trying different things. Then he started throwing away his material every year and creating new material. He noticed that he got better and better by doing this. This also reminded me of another anecdote I'd heard somewhere where you have a pottery class with 20 students. The class was split: 10 students would make a new sculpture every day while the other 10 would have to produce only 1 sculpture for the class (which of course would represent all the extra planning and execution that went into the solo sculpture). At the end of the quarter, the 10 people who made something new every day and then threw it away were far better at sculpting, while everyone in the other group made something kind of shitty and spent a lot of time doing it. So maybe it's not "lack of planning" quite so much as willingness to kill your darlings, again and again.

blowski 10y ago
This is probably true for going from novice to mediocre in many things, and there might be some skills where you can become great by constantly starting again. But in software development, the most valuable skills you learn are not those you pick up when throwing a quick CRUD app together, but those you learn when debugging, refactoring and optimising legacy code. I see too many junior devs get frustrated with something, throw it away, only to rebuild it with very similar problems because they didn't really understand the root cause in the first place.
- flanbiscuit 10y ago
  Having both worked in startup/tech companies and ad agencies, one of the most valuable skills I've learned is being able to decipher and debug someone else's spaghetti code. Clients shift agencies all the time and sometimes you're just given the entire codebase for site, with no documentation and no help offered from the previous agency, and you have to make an update to it or learn how some vital part of it works so you can recreate it in the new site. That's happened to me quite a few times and it made me a better debugger and coder.
- shuntress 10y ago
  There is a difference between writing broken code many times while never learning, and writing broken code once learning why it was broken then starting over and writing good code. If you are saying you can (and should) fix code but cannot fix, for example, a joke. I disagree. Only once you know what the problem is can you decide if it makes more sense to start over.
  - blowski 10y ago
    I have no idea whether you can fix a joke. I'm not very funny.
    - michaelgrafl 10y ago
      I disagree.
- lettergram 10y ago
  I somewhat disagree. I'm in the process of building my 5th production rails app, and 8th web app (which will be used in production and make a profit). I've gotten ridiculously better at figuring out how to structure the underlying models. This alone has made me way better at structuring databases for queries, planning properly, etc. My day job is more of a data science role and it's helped a ton to know how to build the whole stack.
- jimbokun 10y ago
  I think a closer analogy is fast iterations vs waterfall design.
mcmatterson 10y ago
I started doing something similar with the small amount of UI work I do, modeled after [1] (a great watch, BTW). For example, my flow for app icons is like so: 1. Spend some tiny amount of time building the simplest thing that represents your idea on an artboard. The focus here is to function as a first step, not to strive for perfection. 2. Identify one thing to change (shapes, colours, font, etc). 3. Duplicate the whole artboard, and tweak that one thing on the copy. 4. GOTO 2. Keep looking back at previous artboards and don't be afraid to revert if you notice that you've been off course for the past few iterations. Never delete an artboard, just go back and fork. 5. Stop when there's nothing immediately obvious to tweak. It's a simple workflow that produces much better results than endlessly tweaking a single artboard, and you can see your evolution over time, so it's easier to identify the things that work / don't work to improve your skills the next time around. [1] https://vimeo.com/113751583 https://vimeo.com/113751583
- newscracker 10y ago
  Do you have recommendations for any generic tools that can do this for images, artwork, web pages, etc., and allow one to easily view the evolution like a photographer would look at photos captured in an app like Adobe Lightroom or similar? Preferably something that allows annotations and version control so each change is clearer? It'd be great if there are some free tools too. I work on UI very rarely, if at all, but I see value in a workflow like this.
  - mcmatterson 10y ago
    I just do it in Sketch. For me, any evolutionary insights are secondary to shipping, so I'd rather stay on the golden path of tooling than adapt the flow just to see changes. However, it's generally pretty easy to simply zoom out and see your evolution just by looking at multiple artboards at the same time (the changes I'm interested in are more about feel and aesthetics, so I don't really need any pixel level onion-skinnng or anything to compare revisions). FWIW though, Github's image diff is quite useful in this regard. They have a number of useful comparison interfaces for image files that may fit your needs.
6stringmerc 10y ago
I was wondering if that pottery class maxim would show up here - it's a good one and I think definitely applies: >I think our biggest strength is that we have a show that we completely make in one building in six days, and then we’re on to the next one. It's a particular approach for something creative, and also in the spirit of innovation. I like how they just flat-out seem to admit they get bored easily, are confident in their past work (e.g. "We already did that episode"), but still never count on the future. >“O.K., well, this isn’t gonna last. Any minute now we’re gonna get run out of town.” In the entertainment industry, I have no doubt this is the proper mentality to have, because when successful, it simply means that it doesn't happen. Lose the audience/ad revenue, lose the network/label/studio support, lose the parking spot!
DanSmooth 10y ago
You mean a training-effect?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
mixedCase 10y ago
>So maybe it's not "lack of planning" quite so much as willingness to kill your darlings, again and again. And here I am rewriting my frontend for the 7th time.
- orbitur 10y ago
  "Please, can I keep at least one of my darlings?"
- jimmaswell 10y ago
  Not knowing anything else about what went on, that sounds like too much. I'd just stick with something and ride it out after that point.
- michaelcampbell 10y ago
  And is it not better than the previous ones?
Singletoned 10y ago
> Then he started throwing away his material every year and creating new material. This is actually standard practice in the UK comedy scene. A lot of people are focused on creating a new show for the Edinburgh Festival every year, and spend 9 months a year workshopping their new material in standup clubs aiming towards having a polished hour every August.
- AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  It's common now everywhere in comedy, because Carlin/Pryor started the trend. Previous generations of comedians would do the same material over years...Cosby was the last of that generation.
  - Bromlife 10y ago
    Actually, I'd say Seinfeld is the last of that generation. He has his "greatest hits" that he trots out at every opportunity.
    - paulcole 10y ago
      Are you sure about that? I remember him doing an "I'm telling you for the last time" tour where he was retiring a lot of stuff. I saw him after that, late 2000s and it was 100% new material.
    - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
      There was an entire movie (Comedian) about him starting new material from the ground up in prep for a special.
clueless123 10y ago
I read that anecdote on a great book about creativity :"Art & Fear"
orthoganol 10y ago
This rings as an endorsement for working at a dev shop or as a freelancer instead of sticking with the same company.
joe463369 10y ago
I'm sure I read somewhere - possibly on here - that the pottery story is apocryphal.
BurningFrog 10y ago
When The Ramones started out, they decided that each rehearsal they would write a new song. Probably more because they didn't know how preposterous that was than as a desire to create a new paradigm. And so, when their first album came out, they already had most of the songs for the next three albums written.

blowski 10y ago

This is probably true for going from novice to mediocre in many things, and there might be some skills where you can become great by constantly starting again. But in software development, the most valuable skills you learn are not those you pick up when throwing a quick CRUD app together, but those you learn when debugging, refactoring and optimising legacy code. I see too many junior devs get frustrated with something, throw it away, only to rebuild it with very similar problems because they didn't really understand the root cause in the first place.

flanbiscuit 10y ago
Having both worked in startup/tech companies and ad agencies, one of the most valuable skills I've learned is being able to decipher and debug someone else's spaghetti code. Clients shift agencies all the time and sometimes you're just given the entire codebase for site, with no documentation and no help offered from the previous agency, and you have to make an update to it or learn how some vital part of it works so you can recreate it in the new site. That's happened to me quite a few times and it made me a better debugger and coder.
shuntress 10y ago
There is a difference between writing broken code many times while never learning, and writing broken code once learning why it was broken then starting over and writing good code. If you are saying you can (and should) fix code but cannot fix, for example, a joke. I disagree. Only once you know what the problem is can you decide if it makes more sense to start over.
- blowski 10y ago
  I have no idea whether you can fix a joke. I'm not very funny.
  - michaelgrafl 10y ago
    I disagree.
lettergram 10y ago
I somewhat disagree. I'm in the process of building my 5th production rails app, and 8th web app (which will be used in production and make a profit). I've gotten ridiculously better at figuring out how to structure the underlying models. This alone has made me way better at structuring databases for queries, planning properly, etc. My day job is more of a data science role and it's helped a ton to know how to build the whole stack.
jimbokun 10y ago
I think a closer analogy is fast iterations vs waterfall design.

mcmatterson 10y ago

I started doing something similar with the small amount of UI work I do, modeled after [1] (a great watch, BTW). For example, my flow for app icons is like so: 1. Spend some tiny amount of time building the simplest thing that represents your idea on an artboard. The focus here is to function as a first step, not to strive for perfection. 2. Identify one thing to change (shapes, colours, font, etc). 3. Duplicate the whole artboard, and tweak that one thing on the copy. 4. GOTO 2. Keep looking back at previous artboards and don't be afraid to revert if you notice that you've been off course for the past few iterations. Never delete an artboard, just go back and fork. 5. Stop when there's nothing immediately obvious to tweak. It's a simple workflow that produces much better results than endlessly tweaking a single artboard, and you can see your evolution over time, so it's easier to identify the things that work / don't work to improve your skills the next time around. [1] https://vimeo.com/113751583 https://vimeo.com/113751583

newscracker 10y ago
Do you have recommendations for any generic tools that can do this for images, artwork, web pages, etc., and allow one to easily view the evolution like a photographer would look at photos captured in an app like Adobe Lightroom or similar? Preferably something that allows annotations and version control so each change is clearer? It'd be great if there are some free tools too. I work on UI very rarely, if at all, but I see value in a workflow like this.
- mcmatterson 10y ago
  I just do it in Sketch. For me, any evolutionary insights are secondary to shipping, so I'd rather stay on the golden path of tooling than adapt the flow just to see changes. However, it's generally pretty easy to simply zoom out and see your evolution just by looking at multiple artboards at the same time (the changes I'm interested in are more about feel and aesthetics, so I don't really need any pixel level onion-skinnng or anything to compare revisions). FWIW though, Github's image diff is quite useful in this regard. They have a number of useful comparison interfaces for image files that may fit your needs.

6stringmerc 10y ago

I was wondering if that pottery class maxim would show up here - it's a good one and I think definitely applies: >I think our biggest strength is that we have a show that we completely make in one building in six days, and then we’re on to the next one. It's a particular approach for something creative, and also in the spirit of innovation. I like how they just flat-out seem to admit they get bored easily, are confident in their past work (e.g. "We already did that episode"), but still never count on the future. >“O.K., well, this isn’t gonna last. Any minute now we’re gonna get run out of town.” In the entertainment industry, I have no doubt this is the proper mentality to have, because when successful, it simply means that it doesn't happen. Lose the audience/ad revenue, lose the network/label/studio support, lose the parking spot!

DanSmooth 10y ago

You mean a training-effect?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

mixedCase 10y ago

>So maybe it's not "lack of planning" quite so much as willingness to kill your darlings, again and again. And here I am rewriting my frontend for the 7th time.

orbitur 10y ago
"Please, can I keep at least one of my darlings?"
jimmaswell 10y ago
Not knowing anything else about what went on, that sounds like too much. I'd just stick with something and ride it out after that point.
michaelcampbell 10y ago
And is it not better than the previous ones?

Singletoned 10y ago

> Then he started throwing away his material every year and creating new material. This is actually standard practice in the UK comedy scene. A lot of people are focused on creating a new show for the Edinburgh Festival every year, and spend 9 months a year workshopping their new material in standup clubs aiming towards having a polished hour every August.

AndrewKemendo 10y ago
It's common now everywhere in comedy, because Carlin/Pryor started the trend. Previous generations of comedians would do the same material over years...Cosby was the last of that generation.
- Bromlife 10y ago
  Actually, I'd say Seinfeld is the last of that generation. He has his "greatest hits" that he trots out at every opportunity.
  - paulcole 10y ago
    Are you sure about that? I remember him doing an "I'm telling you for the last time" tour where he was retiring a lot of stuff. I saw him after that, late 2000s and it was 100% new material.
  - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
    There was an entire movie (Comedian) about him starting new material from the ground up in prep for a special.

clueless123 10y ago

I read that anecdote on a great book about creativity :"Art & Fear"

orthoganol 10y ago

This rings as an endorsement for working at a dev shop or as a freelancer instead of sticking with the same company.

joe463369 10y ago

I'm sure I read somewhere - possibly on here - that the pottery story is apocryphal.

BurningFrog 10y ago

When The Ramones started out, they decided that each rehearsal they would write a new song. Probably more because they didn't know how preposterous that was than as a desire to create a new paradigm. And so, when their first album came out, they already had most of the songs for the next three albums written.