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I think the idea of offering loans only for 'vocational' degrees is extremely damaging. It leads to people taking 'Software Engineering' degrees rather than com

I think the idea of offering loans only for 'vocational' degrees is extremely damaging. It leads to people taking 'Software Engineering' degrees rather than computer science or maths or physics when really these less directed degrees generally allow people to explore what they are really most passionate about. The idea of a university is not a place where one goes to get a piece of paper that certifies one as competent to perform a job - that should merely be a side effect - university is a place where people should go to learn about things that interest them and inspire them in the company of other like-minded people whilst simultaneously growing as an individual. I acknowledge this is a rather idealistic view of our higher education institutes but I think it's one we should strive to make a reality.

icebraining 10y ago
It leads to people taking 'Software Engineering' degrees rather than computer science or maths or physics when really these less directed degrees generally allow people to explore what they are really most passionate about. I share your concerns; on the other hand, is signing up for a 3-to-5 year course really the best way to help people discover their passion? As an exploratory path, it sound expensive both in resources and in time wasted for the student. Around here, we have something called "summer university" wherein high-school students can spend a week or two getting an high level overview of the college course. It's extra-curricular, so few attend, but seems like a similar approach introduced into the regular HS calendar (say, the last two months), getting everyone to try a few courses of their choice, could provide even more exploration for much lower costs.
karma_vaccum123 10y ago
> university is a place where people should go to learn about things that interest them and inspire them in the company of other like-minded people whilst simultaneously growing as an individual As long as we continue to believe this, nothing will change. Universities indoctrinate, lets not be naive. Most schools have little interest in widening the perspectives of students. They are on a mission to unify perspectives. Indeed I would say that universities are more responsible for our Idiocracy than television - graduates really believe they have become enlightened when in fact they have been programmed.
- cmurf 10y ago
  OK well there are all sorts of programming, and DNA is one of those, so is culture, so is family. We're programmed to say pledges to flags, desire an education, get married, buy houses, go into debt, have children, have more debt, etc. It's all programming. But what you're doing is putting a very broad value judgment on a particular variety of programming. I don't think it's terribly interesting to only criticize university doctrination without exploring the opportunity costs. Let's say all the kids want to go to Costa Rica and retire instead of going to college, oops, small problem. So I'm unclear on what your scalable alternative is.
- jazzyk 10y ago
  Looking at my daughter's textbook at a top-20 college in the US, I was stunned. She took a (core) class in philosophy/psychology. Very little time was spent on classics (ancient philosophers, Kant, Hegel, Freud, etc.) They were replaced by contemporary researchers (often from the same university), often with a VERY extreme, one-sided, politicized agenda (feminist, etc.). Pretty sad.
  - duaneb 10y ago
    Can you think of a core class that would include Aristotle and Freud? It'd be a shitty survey class where people came out half-educated, using phrases like "begs the question" instead of "raises the question", which is ideally part of the problem philosophy core classes should solve. I don't think a survey of modern philosophers is any worse than this. Philosophy half-understood isn't very meaningful. Also, modern philosophers have a lot to say. I still recommend de Beauvoir and Wittgenstein to anyone who cares to read.
  - gm-conspiracy 10y ago
    How much did the textbook cost?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - vkou 10y ago
    It's a shame that a well rounded education doesn't solely consist of studying entirely apolitical, classic European thinkers. It's almost as if there is more to the world than Central and Mediterranean Europe. And heaven forbid, students get exposed to radical ideas in their philosophy classes. We can't have any of that, here.
k-mcgrady 10y ago
I can see how you thought I was advocating loans for only vocational degrees. Something like Computer Science I think would be fine as a job path is very clear and well paid. I can't speak for Maths of Physics because I don't know much about jobs paths from those. I was more talking about degrees that have no clear job path and which could don't need to be studied at an institution where you are largely paying for the name. If someone wants a loan to study history - fine, give them enough to study in-state or at a community college. >> university is a place where people should go to learn about things that interest them and inspire them in the company of other like-minded people whilst simultaneously growing as an individual This is the problem. That all sounds great but it is not worth $100k and there are many other ways to have that experience that do not cost that much.
- whyenot 10y ago
  > it is not worth $100k and there are many other ways to have that experience that do not cost that much You can get an excellent education at a state school for less than $6k per year. The person who gets a degree in music theory, philosophy, or art history may not get a job that ties in to their major, but these people all leave college with skills in critical thinking, writing, the ability to meet deadlines, skills in communicating complex ideas to others, public speaking, etc. Most importantly, they leave with proof that they know how to learn and improve themselves. There are jobs for people with these skills, and they will likely be far more rewarding than gutting chickens on the line all day or waiting tables at the Cheesecake Factory.
  - crush_xc 10y ago
    what state does that exist in? No state school here in NJ is under 10k a year, and none of them are ranked decently except for maybe Rutgers, Stevens, and NJIT's architecture program.
    - v64 10y ago
      The University of Texas has in state tuition for below 6k a year, and in some cases out of state tuition can come in at below 10k as well. [1] This is just tuition and administrative fees and doesn't include housing and textbooks. [1] https://admissions.utexas.edu/tuition/cost-of-attendance https://admissions.utexas.edu/tuition/cost-of-attendance Edit: Sorry I misread. These stats are by semester, not year.
yummyfajitas 10y ago
- university is a place where people should go to learn about things that interest them and inspire them in the company of other like-minded people whilst simultaneously growing as an individual. Sounds like a fun luxury good. Why should we subsidize such a luxury good and encourage 25-50% of the population to consume it? Should we also subsidize luxury goods enjoyed by other subcultures, e.g. video games, muscle cars or strip clubs? If not, why not?
- jazzyk 10y ago
  There is a big elephant in the room here - the terrible state of high school education in the US. In many (advanced) countries in the world you can be reasonably educated/knowledgeable with a high school diploma - Kant and Hegel (and Confucius and Buddha :-)) are discussed in classes.
- yequalsx 10y ago
  Educatuion is a public good. We all benefit when society is highly educated. The benefits might not be obtained at an individual level. That is, there will be some people whose education does not end up benefitting us all.
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    >>Educatuion is a public good. We all benefit when society is highly educated. Right. The point of contention is whether we should be paying $50-150k per person for this public good. I mean, the benefits are clearly there, but the price has been skyrocketing and when the individual can't pay back their loans, we all suffer.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    If you want to claim education has positive externalities, then make that case. But that's a little hard to square with BenElgar's idea that subsidizing some degrees more than others is "damaging". His comment argued nothing about externalities. After all, if it turns out that the public external benefits of a physics degree exceed those of a women's studies degree, then the former should be subsidized but not the latter. In any case, what do you believe the external benefits of education are?

icebraining 10y ago

It leads to people taking 'Software Engineering' degrees rather than computer science or maths or physics when really these less directed degrees generally allow people to explore what they are really most passionate about. I share your concerns; on the other hand, is signing up for a 3-to-5 year course really the best way to help people discover their passion? As an exploratory path, it sound expensive both in resources and in time wasted for the student. Around here, we have something called "summer university" wherein high-school students can spend a week or two getting an high level overview of the college course. It's extra-curricular, so few attend, but seems like a similar approach introduced into the regular HS calendar (say, the last two months), getting everyone to try a few courses of their choice, could provide even more exploration for much lower costs.

karma_vaccum123 10y ago

> university is a place where people should go to learn about things that interest them and inspire them in the company of other like-minded people whilst simultaneously growing as an individual As long as we continue to believe this, nothing will change. Universities indoctrinate, lets not be naive. Most schools have little interest in widening the perspectives of students. They are on a mission to unify perspectives. Indeed I would say that universities are more responsible for our Idiocracy than television - graduates really believe they have become enlightened when in fact they have been programmed.

cmurf 10y ago
OK well there are all sorts of programming, and DNA is one of those, so is culture, so is family. We're programmed to say pledges to flags, desire an education, get married, buy houses, go into debt, have children, have more debt, etc. It's all programming. But what you're doing is putting a very broad value judgment on a particular variety of programming. I don't think it's terribly interesting to only criticize university doctrination without exploring the opportunity costs. Let's say all the kids want to go to Costa Rica and retire instead of going to college, oops, small problem. So I'm unclear on what your scalable alternative is.
jazzyk 10y ago
Looking at my daughter's textbook at a top-20 college in the US, I was stunned. She took a (core) class in philosophy/psychology. Very little time was spent on classics (ancient philosophers, Kant, Hegel, Freud, etc.) They were replaced by contemporary researchers (often from the same university), often with a VERY extreme, one-sided, politicized agenda (feminist, etc.). Pretty sad.
- duaneb 10y ago
  Can you think of a core class that would include Aristotle and Freud? It'd be a shitty survey class where people came out half-educated, using phrases like "begs the question" instead of "raises the question", which is ideally part of the problem philosophy core classes should solve. I don't think a survey of modern philosophers is any worse than this. Philosophy half-understood isn't very meaningful. Also, modern philosophers have a lot to say. I still recommend de Beauvoir and Wittgenstein to anyone who cares to read.
- gm-conspiracy 10y ago
  How much did the textbook cost?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- vkou 10y ago
  It's a shame that a well rounded education doesn't solely consist of studying entirely apolitical, classic European thinkers. It's almost as if there is more to the world than Central and Mediterranean Europe. And heaven forbid, students get exposed to radical ideas in their philosophy classes. We can't have any of that, here.

k-mcgrady 10y ago

I can see how you thought I was advocating loans for only vocational degrees. Something like Computer Science I think would be fine as a job path is very clear and well paid. I can't speak for Maths of Physics because I don't know much about jobs paths from those. I was more talking about degrees that have no clear job path and which could don't need to be studied at an institution where you are largely paying for the name. If someone wants a loan to study history - fine, give them enough to study in-state or at a community college. >> university is a place where people should go to learn about things that interest them and inspire them in the company of other like-minded people whilst simultaneously growing as an individual This is the problem. That all sounds great but it is not worth $100k and there are many other ways to have that experience that do not cost that much.

whyenot 10y ago
> it is not worth $100k and there are many other ways to have that experience that do not cost that much You can get an excellent education at a state school for less than $6k per year. The person who gets a degree in music theory, philosophy, or art history may not get a job that ties in to their major, but these people all leave college with skills in critical thinking, writing, the ability to meet deadlines, skills in communicating complex ideas to others, public speaking, etc. Most importantly, they leave with proof that they know how to learn and improve themselves. There are jobs for people with these skills, and they will likely be far more rewarding than gutting chickens on the line all day or waiting tables at the Cheesecake Factory.
- crush_xc 10y ago
  what state does that exist in? No state school here in NJ is under 10k a year, and none of them are ranked decently except for maybe Rutgers, Stevens, and NJIT's architecture program.
  - v64 10y ago
    The University of Texas has in state tuition for below 6k a year, and in some cases out of state tuition can come in at below 10k as well. [1] This is just tuition and administrative fees and doesn't include housing and textbooks. [1] https://admissions.utexas.edu/tuition/cost-of-attendance https://admissions.utexas.edu/tuition/cost-of-attendance Edit: Sorry I misread. These stats are by semester, not year.

yummyfajitas 10y ago

- university is a place where people should go to learn about things that interest them and inspire them in the company of other like-minded people whilst simultaneously growing as an individual. Sounds like a fun luxury good. Why should we subsidize such a luxury good and encourage 25-50% of the population to consume it? Should we also subsidize luxury goods enjoyed by other subcultures, e.g. video games, muscle cars or strip clubs? If not, why not?

jazzyk 10y ago
There is a big elephant in the room here - the terrible state of high school education in the US. In many (advanced) countries in the world you can be reasonably educated/knowledgeable with a high school diploma - Kant and Hegel (and Confucius and Buddha :-)) are discussed in classes.
yequalsx 10y ago
Educatuion is a public good. We all benefit when society is highly educated. The benefits might not be obtained at an individual level. That is, there will be some people whose education does not end up benefitting us all.
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  >>Educatuion is a public good. We all benefit when society is highly educated. Right. The point of contention is whether we should be paying $50-150k per person for this public good. I mean, the benefits are clearly there, but the price has been skyrocketing and when the individual can't pay back their loans, we all suffer.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  If you want to claim education has positive externalities, then make that case. But that's a little hard to square with BenElgar's idea that subsidizing some degrees more than others is "damaging". His comment argued nothing about externalities. After all, if it turns out that the public external benefits of a physics degree exceed those of a women's studies degree, then the former should be subsidized but not the latter. In any case, what do you believe the external benefits of education are?