9 ms·

If this happens, do I get benefits on the debt I've already paid off? I would be pretty pissed if I didn't. I worked my ass off to pay my loans.

Salgat 10y ago
I always loved this quote, “The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.” I'm almost done paying off my student loans, and because of that, I don't want anyone else to have to endure paying for student loans, even if I myself don't get the benefit.
- h4nkoslo 10y ago
  No one's stopping you from cutting them a check. Ideally you would not hold a gun to my head and demand I do the same.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    You completely missed the point. Further, this "holding a gun to your head" thing is completely asinine.
    - dbcurtis 10y ago
      Is it really? What happens if you don't pay your taxes? Eventually you will be arrested. What if you resist arrest? Do the police ask you to come along nicely with an Especially Firm Voice the second time? Eventually, someone will deploy state-sanctioned violence in this situation. Stop whistling past the grave yard. That is how government works. They have guns, and prefer that you don't, just in case you get all argumentative and pouty.
      - kalleboo 10y ago
        > What happens if you don't pay your taxes? Eventually you will be arrested. At least where I'm from, no you won't. Your debt to the state will grow and eventually they'll try to repossess it (through e.g. wage garnishing). They can't arrest you for not paying taxes.
      - st3v3r 10y ago
        "What happens if you don't pay your taxes?" What happens if you go up and steal someone's car? The same thing that happens if you break any other law. "What if you resist arrest?" The same thing that happens if you break any other law. "Eventually, someone will deploy state-sanctioned violence in this situation." And you get no sympathy from me, because in this case, you clearly broke the law.
    - h4nkoslo 10y ago
      No, I didn't. OP is trying to make this a lovely cost-free dynamic, where all we have to do is let our brother crabs get out of the bucket without dragging them down, man. That's bullshit. In reality OP proposes to transfer money from me to people who made investments in human capital that didn't pan out. Maybe that's their fault, because they invested foolishly. Maybe it's nobody's fault, because they invested in a positive-expectation bet and got bit by the variance (it does suck when you take out a loan to go to nursing school, and the feds decide to import a bunch of Filipino nurses instead). Maybe they were the victim of fraud, and someone sold them a bill of goods. In any case, it has nothing to do with me.
      - Neeek 10y ago
        But it does have to do with you? All of this affects the world you live in, the world that you interact with directly every single day. The house you live in, the wage you're paid, the food you eat, the medicine you receive, everything in your life depends on other people. Whether you agree with the way your government is handling this or not, it all still has everything to do with you.
        h4nkoslo 10y ago
        Yeah man, like, butterfly effect, you know? Rather more direct when they're taking my money to do so. This isn't an abstract "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" scenario, and the alternative is not personal autarky. OP is proposing a direct transfer, from me to a stranger, to which I am opposed, and therefore one which must be imposed by force. The alternative is not imposing such a transfer. Cut a check yourself if you think it's a good idea. Bullshit about the universal brotherhood of man and unity of the volk does not excuse arbitrary impositions.
        Neeek 10y ago
        Please note, I'm not taking sides in this. Your last sentence was all I had issue with.
dragthor 10y ago
My wife and I worked and sacrificed to pay our student loans off. Struggle builds character, appreciation, and gratitude.
- Salgat 10y ago
  Same here! However, there is a line to draw on how much debt to put on someone. I know people who have tuition payments cutting into their living wages, affecting their ability to have even the basic necessities. There is nothing good about this unnecessary suffering, having to worry if you will still be able to afford a meal or a roof over your head.
  - morgante 10y ago
    > However, there is a line to draw on how much debt to put on someone. Yes, people should decide how much debt they want to take on. There are vast differences in the value of different degrees (cost and earnings). It's people's responsibility to educate themselves. The rest of us shouldn't have to subsidize someone's terrible decision to go into debt for a degree in basket-weaving.
    - chumich1 10y ago
      Should we be expecting the average 17-year old to be make sound financial decisions? Especially given how much money is involved.
      - morgante 10y ago
        Yes, we should. The average college freshman is 18 years old. If you're old enough to drive a car, join the army, or be charged as an adult, you're old enough to realize that paying tens of thousands of dollars for a degree in musical theater isn't a great idea. It's not rocket science. There are tons of resources online to help you figure out which degrees and schools are good value.
        10y ago
koolba 10y ago
> If this happens, do I get benefits on the debt I've already paid off? I would be pretty pissed if I didn't. I worked my ass off to pay my loans. That's not going to happen because it's politically easier to continue to subsidize failure than to draw the line on this bullshit and reward sensible hard working people like you.
Jach 10y ago
Are you familiar with the phrase "from each according to his ability"?
- TheCoelacanth 10y ago
  If it is a means-tested program, say a more expansive version of IBR where you have to pay an income-adjusted amount for a certain number of years to have the loan forgiven, I would be okay with that. If it were a straight up give away to everyone with loans regardless of whether they could afford to pay for it, I would be angry.
atombath 10y ago
I understand that feeling... I'm nearing the end of my loans and dropped $3k on one of them yesterday. I would have rather had a vacation if it's just going to vanish! ...but don't get salty because the debt won't vanish. I have no doubt that if an education loan is forgiven, it WILL affect that persons credit rating. Much like when a debt is forgiven/charged-off. Also, charge-offs are typically treated as a form of taxable income... so these people will pay one way or the other, and likely take a long-time credit rating hit.
- morgante 10y ago
  > Also, charge-offs are typically treated as a form of taxable income That's not much consolation. I wouldn't be happy if the government decided to simply pay people for making poor financial decisions, even if we recovered x% of those payments through taxes. I'd still be paying for it with my massively higher taxes. Just get the government out of the student loan industry. Let the market signal which degrees are valuable and allow students to discharge through bankruptcy (but ruin their credit).
  - zo1 10y ago
    >"I wouldn't be happy if the government decided to simply pay people for making poor financial decisions" Government already does that in a myriad of ways, some more morally accepted than others. It's almost part of the base definition of what we expect the government to do, if you really think about it. Paying for the poor that made bad life decisions and lost their job, the sick that didn't save for medical expenditure, the parent that had one-too-many kids and can't pay for their food/schooling, etc. I would argue they are all very similar, buffering and protecting those that are incapable of providing for themselves, either by inability or conscious inaction/abuse. It's just that some people think this should be done by private efforts, instead of by government which uses it's power to force people to obey and pay.
- dv_dt 10y ago
  A vacation, or buying a house, or just about any other use of the money would also benefit the economy more than paying it back into loan accounts at some bank or gov't ledger.
coldpie 10y ago
I understand the sentiment, but "I had to do <thing that sucks>, therefore everybody has to do <thing that sucks>" isn't a great argument either, especially when it leads to a stagnant economy due to nearly an entire generation with no funds to spend. I'm not advocating for any particular solution, but don't react so quickly that you cut off your nose to spite your face.
- morgante 10y ago
  The problem is that the rest of us have to pay for this forgiveness. "I had to do <thing that sucks>, therefore everybody has to do <thing that sucks>" isn't a great argument, but "you had to do <think that sucks>, but I don't want to so I'm going to make you do <other thing that sucks> so I don't have to" is even worse. It's like forcing someone who just finally managed to rebuild their house after it burned down to share their house with another fire victim for free.
- Mc_Big_G 10y ago
  It's a great argument, just not phrased correctly. It's more like "I had to work hard and make difficult decisions to succeed which included choosing a field that is guaranteed to pay and being obligated to pay back the money I borrowed. Therefore, everybody should have to do the same. If not, then I at least want to be treated fairly."
  - coldpie 10y ago
    > Therefore, everybody should have to do the same. Why, though? Depending on how the idea of debt relief shakes out, this might be one of those "sometimes life is unfair" moments that you just have to accept and move on as part of living in a society. The alternative is a massive contraction in buying power, which could certainly directly impact your livelihood. Is the spite worth that?
    - Mc_Big_G 10y ago
      I believe there is a solution in the middle. It's not all or nothing. Also, your "sometimes life is unfair" costs me $100k+. Seems criminally unfair.
awinder 10y ago
You'd get indirect benefits from the debt unloading. Things like economic stimulus from increased spending power, likely increased home values by bringing more buyers (but this is good debt! /s). That last point is probably controversial depending on if you own or rent, it would be a real killer if that student debt unloading was just converted into a different kind of debt that hit a diff. proportion of the population.
n72 10y ago
I absolutely understand the sentiment, but if there is legislation to forgive student loans it will not have actually hurt you. In other words, such anger at the forgiveness of student loans really just comes down to envy - namely that other people received a benefit you didn't.
- morgante 10y ago
  > forgive student loans it will not have actually hurt you Of course it will. That's money which the government loses. I pay tens of thousands in taxes every year.
- clifanatic 10y ago
  > that other people received a benefit you didn't Actually, probably not. That's part of it, but if student loan debts are forgiven, the banks aren't going to eat all of that cost - the government is going to step in and help recoup some of that cost. So not only did I have to pay for my own college education, I'll be taxed to help pay for thousands of others, as well.
  - n72 10y ago
    Okay, yes, but then everyone else is paying that too. I.e. as a society we're all chipping in to create a good. The fact is, the forgiveness of student loans is overall a good thing. Because of timing you didn't get to participate in that good thing. Should that make you pissed? In other words, if you had veto power over the loans being forgiven would do so since you had pay marginally higher taxes?
  - r_smart 10y ago
    Honestly, based on the interest rates, and their comparison to the market rates on other things, I assume we're already having to do that. I know a lot of people that choose to just not pay their loans, then people who do pay them get higher rates to cover that.
zardo 10y ago
I used to feel the same way, but just because our generation got fucked, there's no reason to take it out on the next one.

Salgat 10y ago

I always loved this quote, “The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.” I'm almost done paying off my student loans, and because of that, I don't want anyone else to have to endure paying for student loans, even if I myself don't get the benefit.

h4nkoslo 10y ago
No one's stopping you from cutting them a check. Ideally you would not hold a gun to my head and demand I do the same.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  You completely missed the point. Further, this "holding a gun to your head" thing is completely asinine.
  - dbcurtis 10y ago
    Is it really? What happens if you don't pay your taxes? Eventually you will be arrested. What if you resist arrest? Do the police ask you to come along nicely with an Especially Firm Voice the second time? Eventually, someone will deploy state-sanctioned violence in this situation. Stop whistling past the grave yard. That is how government works. They have guns, and prefer that you don't, just in case you get all argumentative and pouty.
    - kalleboo 10y ago
      > What happens if you don't pay your taxes? Eventually you will be arrested. At least where I'm from, no you won't. Your debt to the state will grow and eventually they'll try to repossess it (through e.g. wage garnishing). They can't arrest you for not paying taxes.
    - st3v3r 10y ago
      "What happens if you don't pay your taxes?" What happens if you go up and steal someone's car? The same thing that happens if you break any other law. "What if you resist arrest?" The same thing that happens if you break any other law. "Eventually, someone will deploy state-sanctioned violence in this situation." And you get no sympathy from me, because in this case, you clearly broke the law.
  - h4nkoslo 10y ago
    No, I didn't. OP is trying to make this a lovely cost-free dynamic, where all we have to do is let our brother crabs get out of the bucket without dragging them down, man. That's bullshit. In reality OP proposes to transfer money from me to people who made investments in human capital that didn't pan out. Maybe that's their fault, because they invested foolishly. Maybe it's nobody's fault, because they invested in a positive-expectation bet and got bit by the variance (it does suck when you take out a loan to go to nursing school, and the feds decide to import a bunch of Filipino nurses instead). Maybe they were the victim of fraud, and someone sold them a bill of goods. In any case, it has nothing to do with me.
    - Neeek 10y ago
      But it does have to do with you? All of this affects the world you live in, the world that you interact with directly every single day. The house you live in, the wage you're paid, the food you eat, the medicine you receive, everything in your life depends on other people. Whether you agree with the way your government is handling this or not, it all still has everything to do with you.
      - h4nkoslo 10y ago
        Yeah man, like, butterfly effect, you know? Rather more direct when they're taking my money to do so. This isn't an abstract "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" scenario, and the alternative is not personal autarky. OP is proposing a direct transfer, from me to a stranger, to which I am opposed, and therefore one which must be imposed by force. The alternative is not imposing such a transfer. Cut a check yourself if you think it's a good idea. Bullshit about the universal brotherhood of man and unity of the volk does not excuse arbitrary impositions.
        Neeek 10y ago
        Please note, I'm not taking sides in this. Your last sentence was all I had issue with.

dragthor 10y ago

My wife and I worked and sacrificed to pay our student loans off. Struggle builds character, appreciation, and gratitude.

Salgat 10y ago
Same here! However, there is a line to draw on how much debt to put on someone. I know people who have tuition payments cutting into their living wages, affecting their ability to have even the basic necessities. There is nothing good about this unnecessary suffering, having to worry if you will still be able to afford a meal or a roof over your head.
- morgante 10y ago
  > However, there is a line to draw on how much debt to put on someone. Yes, people should decide how much debt they want to take on. There are vast differences in the value of different degrees (cost and earnings). It's people's responsibility to educate themselves. The rest of us shouldn't have to subsidize someone's terrible decision to go into debt for a degree in basket-weaving.
  - chumich1 10y ago
    Should we be expecting the average 17-year old to be make sound financial decisions? Especially given how much money is involved.
    - morgante 10y ago
      Yes, we should. The average college freshman is 18 years old. If you're old enough to drive a car, join the army, or be charged as an adult, you're old enough to realize that paying tens of thousands of dollars for a degree in musical theater isn't a great idea. It's not rocket science. There are tons of resources online to help you figure out which degrees and schools are good value.
      - 10y ago

koolba 10y ago

> If this happens, do I get benefits on the debt I've already paid off? I would be pretty pissed if I didn't. I worked my ass off to pay my loans. That's not going to happen because it's politically easier to continue to subsidize failure than to draw the line on this bullshit and reward sensible hard working people like you.

Jach 10y ago

Are you familiar with the phrase "from each according to his ability"?

TheCoelacanth 10y ago
If it is a means-tested program, say a more expansive version of IBR where you have to pay an income-adjusted amount for a certain number of years to have the loan forgiven, I would be okay with that. If it were a straight up give away to everyone with loans regardless of whether they could afford to pay for it, I would be angry.

atombath 10y ago

I understand that feeling... I'm nearing the end of my loans and dropped $3k on one of them yesterday. I would have rather had a vacation if it's just going to vanish! ...but don't get salty because the debt won't vanish. I have no doubt that if an education loan is forgiven, it WILL affect that persons credit rating. Much like when a debt is forgiven/charged-off. Also, charge-offs are typically treated as a form of taxable income... so these people will pay one way or the other, and likely take a long-time credit rating hit.

morgante 10y ago
> Also, charge-offs are typically treated as a form of taxable income That's not much consolation. I wouldn't be happy if the government decided to simply pay people for making poor financial decisions, even if we recovered x% of those payments through taxes. I'd still be paying for it with my massively higher taxes. Just get the government out of the student loan industry. Let the market signal which degrees are valuable and allow students to discharge through bankruptcy (but ruin their credit).
- zo1 10y ago
  >"I wouldn't be happy if the government decided to simply pay people for making poor financial decisions" Government already does that in a myriad of ways, some more morally accepted than others. It's almost part of the base definition of what we expect the government to do, if you really think about it. Paying for the poor that made bad life decisions and lost their job, the sick that didn't save for medical expenditure, the parent that had one-too-many kids and can't pay for their food/schooling, etc. I would argue they are all very similar, buffering and protecting those that are incapable of providing for themselves, either by inability or conscious inaction/abuse. It's just that some people think this should be done by private efforts, instead of by government which uses it's power to force people to obey and pay.
dv_dt 10y ago
A vacation, or buying a house, or just about any other use of the money would also benefit the economy more than paying it back into loan accounts at some bank or gov't ledger.

coldpie 10y ago

I understand the sentiment, but "I had to do <thing that sucks>, therefore everybody has to do <thing that sucks>" isn't a great argument either, especially when it leads to a stagnant economy due to nearly an entire generation with no funds to spend. I'm not advocating for any particular solution, but don't react so quickly that you cut off your nose to spite your face.

morgante 10y ago
The problem is that the rest of us have to pay for this forgiveness. "I had to do <thing that sucks>, therefore everybody has to do <thing that sucks>" isn't a great argument, but "you had to do <think that sucks>, but I don't want to so I'm going to make you do <other thing that sucks> so I don't have to" is even worse. It's like forcing someone who just finally managed to rebuild their house after it burned down to share their house with another fire victim for free.
Mc_Big_G 10y ago
It's a great argument, just not phrased correctly. It's more like "I had to work hard and make difficult decisions to succeed which included choosing a field that is guaranteed to pay and being obligated to pay back the money I borrowed. Therefore, everybody should have to do the same. If not, then I at least want to be treated fairly."
- coldpie 10y ago
  > Therefore, everybody should have to do the same. Why, though? Depending on how the idea of debt relief shakes out, this might be one of those "sometimes life is unfair" moments that you just have to accept and move on as part of living in a society. The alternative is a massive contraction in buying power, which could certainly directly impact your livelihood. Is the spite worth that?
  - Mc_Big_G 10y ago
    I believe there is a solution in the middle. It's not all or nothing. Also, your "sometimes life is unfair" costs me $100k+. Seems criminally unfair.

awinder 10y ago

You'd get indirect benefits from the debt unloading. Things like economic stimulus from increased spending power, likely increased home values by bringing more buyers (but this is good debt! /s). That last point is probably controversial depending on if you own or rent, it would be a real killer if that student debt unloading was just converted into a different kind of debt that hit a diff. proportion of the population.

n72 10y ago

I absolutely understand the sentiment, but if there is legislation to forgive student loans it will not have actually hurt you. In other words, such anger at the forgiveness of student loans really just comes down to envy - namely that other people received a benefit you didn't.

morgante 10y ago
> forgive student loans it will not have actually hurt you Of course it will. That's money which the government loses. I pay tens of thousands in taxes every year.
clifanatic 10y ago
> that other people received a benefit you didn't Actually, probably not. That's part of it, but if student loan debts are forgiven, the banks aren't going to eat all of that cost - the government is going to step in and help recoup some of that cost. So not only did I have to pay for my own college education, I'll be taxed to help pay for thousands of others, as well.
- n72 10y ago
  Okay, yes, but then everyone else is paying that too. I.e. as a society we're all chipping in to create a good. The fact is, the forgiveness of student loans is overall a good thing. Because of timing you didn't get to participate in that good thing. Should that make you pissed? In other words, if you had veto power over the loans being forgiven would do so since you had pay marginally higher taxes?
- r_smart 10y ago
  Honestly, based on the interest rates, and their comparison to the market rates on other things, I assume we're already having to do that. I know a lot of people that choose to just not pay their loans, then people who do pay them get higher rates to cover that.

zardo 10y ago

I used to feel the same way, but just because our generation got fucked, there's no reason to take it out on the next one.