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>But that’s not the "driving" factor, especially considering that owning a smartphone or other mobile device, with its monthly fees of network access, data plan

>But that’s not the "driving" factor, especially considering that owning a smartphone or other mobile device, with its monthly fees of network access, data plan, insurance, and app services, is almost comparable to the monthly payments required when leasing a Honda Civic. iphone 7 plus 128GB - 41.58$ Verizon 4GB data plan - 50$ insurance - 10$ app services? - 20$ Total - 121.58$ From Honda's website, they're advertising a civic lease for $179 a month. that's with 2000$ due at signing. Oh wait! you'll also need mandatory driver's insurance on that vehicle, that'll be at least another 50$ (im told, i live in michigan which has the highest car insurance prices in the nation, my 2012 sonata costs 178 a month to insure, that's well above my monthly payment on the car itself - i have never been in an accident and i have no tickets in the last 5 years) anyways, so we are at least at $229 total with a 2000$ initial down payment. That's quite considerably more expensive... oh wait! theres also the various fees for getting a license, getting a license plate, registering the vehicle with the state, and of course the mental cost of maintaining the various paperwork. Total - 229$ + 2500ish$

JangoSteve 10y ago
Also, if we're including cost of a data plan for the phone, I think it's only fair to include gas and maintenance in the cost of the car.
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  This. The TCO of a car is ginormous, even for all the comfort it provides.
  - t4nkd 10y ago
    For some reason people are caught up in sticker price value versus demand value and try to play this cute game where a car is an investment, or better yet, a tool to be leveraged. Cars are a luxury that we afford and then make excuses as to why we are justified in the expense. There are a few luxury car brands you could consider "investable" because of your ability to re-lease and do week long or similarly timeboxed rentals, but, even that is just an excuse that the people wealthy enough to afford those types of cars make to explain their luxury expense.
    - noxToken 10y ago
      I'd be willing to argue that new cars are a luxury. A quick search[0] says that only 26% live in an urban environment. The rest are suburban or rural. The latter portion don't always have walkable areas. I used to live a short 7 minute drive from my office. Mapping it says 15 via bike and 1 hour via foot. It would have been nearly impossible to bike there, because there are no bike lanes, areas with no sidewalk nor shoulder, intersections that are awkward even for cars, high speed limits, etc. I mean, you could get there, but it would be a very unenjoyable ride. Walking? That's pretty much out of the question. There's another option: public transportation. It is very unreliable. The map system is so convoluted that a group of cyclists are doing their best to release a FOSS app to navigate the bus system. Taxis and ride-share are almost non existent and very expensive. UberX is roughly $22 round trip. Not all American metro areas are made for walking/cycling. Once you hit our downtown area, walking and cycling are pretty easy. Thus, I argue that cars are not an inherent luxury in America. [0]:https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-suburban-are-big-american-cities/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-suburban-are-big-am...
      - antisthenes 10y ago
        In USA, living in an urban walkable area is just as much a luxury as owning a car, if not more, thanks to some really poor infrastructure and urban planning choices made mid 20 century. In fact, the only city I would consider for car-free ownership would be NYC, and you all know how expensive it is.
- joezydeco 10y ago
  When I sold my car a while ago I had been organized enough to keep all maintenance records and bills. On top of depreciation and licensing I could figure out how much gas I had used, and tallied up all my insurance premiums. The cost per mile came out almost identical to what the IRS lets you expense per mile on a corporate rate that year. Right now that rate is $0.54/mile.
forgetsusername 10y ago
>that'll be at least another 50$ Maybe for the bare minimum liability. But if there's a lien on the car (because it's leased or financed) then you're required to have comprehensive insurance. Combined with the fact that a new driver will have higher rates and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a rate below $150 a month. >oh wait! theres also the various fees And maintenance. 4 oil changes a year, tires, brakes, belts and other things that need to be replaced regularly probably adds another $1000 per year. Cars are definitely an excessive expense. I know because I've owned (at least) one my whole life. Then again, my car affords me the ability to live in an area where the cost of living is far below New York, San Francisco, Vancouver or Toronto.
- Amezarak 10y ago
  No doubt it depends on what car your driving, but those seem like pretty crazy high maintenance costs. Over the past ten years, I've spent anywhere from $60-$400/year on maintenance. I drive about 30k miles a year. "Brakes and belts" are for me something you do every 100k miles. Oil changes run about $30, with a new filter. The only other regular maintenance item is the engine air filter, which runs maybe $10. Every couple years I end up buying new tires, but I've known people that made it 8+ years on one set. Altogether, with taxes, fuel, car payments, and insurance, it costs me about $400/month to have a car which I don't think is terrible. It would be nice to spend less on transportation, but I really can't imagine life without a car. Even if I lived in a major city with great public transport - I can imagine using public transport to commute, but I'd still want a car. Of course, where I live now, having a car is absolutely mandatory. I've always kind of shaken my head at the HN comments that suggest I could just ride a bike or something - even if I moved right next to my job site (no thanks), for probably eight months of the year the weather is hot enough that even a slow walk will leave you absolutely drenched in sweat. And maybe I'm crazy, but I prefer going to the grocery store for an hour once every two weeks as opposed to dropping by every day...pretty tough to do without a car. And then there really is the abstract freedom aspect - I can take off and go anywhere, anytime. Coordination is never a factor. And as you say, I can live in a much lower CoL area with my car. Which also helps in that there's much less traffic than in a big city, so driving a car is more enjoyable. I have a 30 mile commute wherein I can drive as fast as I want except for the last mile. :)
xienze 10y ago
Now let's talk about how much it costs to live in a part of the country where you don't need a car at all...
fzzzy 10y ago
The verzion $50 doesn't include line access, which is another $20 per smartphone.

JangoSteve 10y ago

Also, if we're including cost of a data plan for the phone, I think it's only fair to include gas and maintenance in the cost of the car.

Piskvorrr 10y ago
This. The TCO of a car is ginormous, even for all the comfort it provides.
- t4nkd 10y ago
  For some reason people are caught up in sticker price value versus demand value and try to play this cute game where a car is an investment, or better yet, a tool to be leveraged. Cars are a luxury that we afford and then make excuses as to why we are justified in the expense. There are a few luxury car brands you could consider "investable" because of your ability to re-lease and do week long or similarly timeboxed rentals, but, even that is just an excuse that the people wealthy enough to afford those types of cars make to explain their luxury expense.
  - noxToken 10y ago
    I'd be willing to argue that new cars are a luxury. A quick search[0] says that only 26% live in an urban environment. The rest are suburban or rural. The latter portion don't always have walkable areas. I used to live a short 7 minute drive from my office. Mapping it says 15 via bike and 1 hour via foot. It would have been nearly impossible to bike there, because there are no bike lanes, areas with no sidewalk nor shoulder, intersections that are awkward even for cars, high speed limits, etc. I mean, you could get there, but it would be a very unenjoyable ride. Walking? That's pretty much out of the question. There's another option: public transportation. It is very unreliable. The map system is so convoluted that a group of cyclists are doing their best to release a FOSS app to navigate the bus system. Taxis and ride-share are almost non existent and very expensive. UberX is roughly $22 round trip. Not all American metro areas are made for walking/cycling. Once you hit our downtown area, walking and cycling are pretty easy. Thus, I argue that cars are not an inherent luxury in America. [0]:https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-suburban-are-big-american-cities/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-suburban-are-big-am...
    - antisthenes 10y ago
      In USA, living in an urban walkable area is just as much a luxury as owning a car, if not more, thanks to some really poor infrastructure and urban planning choices made mid 20 century. In fact, the only city I would consider for car-free ownership would be NYC, and you all know how expensive it is.
joezydeco 10y ago
When I sold my car a while ago I had been organized enough to keep all maintenance records and bills. On top of depreciation and licensing I could figure out how much gas I had used, and tallied up all my insurance premiums. The cost per mile came out almost identical to what the IRS lets you expense per mile on a corporate rate that year. Right now that rate is $0.54/mile.

forgetsusername 10y ago

>that'll be at least another 50$ Maybe for the bare minimum liability. But if there's a lien on the car (because it's leased or financed) then you're required to have comprehensive insurance. Combined with the fact that a new driver will have higher rates and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a rate below $150 a month. >oh wait! theres also the various fees And maintenance. 4 oil changes a year, tires, brakes, belts and other things that need to be replaced regularly probably adds another $1000 per year. Cars are definitely an excessive expense. I know because I've owned (at least) one my whole life. Then again, my car affords me the ability to live in an area where the cost of living is far below New York, San Francisco, Vancouver or Toronto.

Amezarak 10y ago
No doubt it depends on what car your driving, but those seem like pretty crazy high maintenance costs. Over the past ten years, I've spent anywhere from $60-$400/year on maintenance. I drive about 30k miles a year. "Brakes and belts" are for me something you do every 100k miles. Oil changes run about $30, with a new filter. The only other regular maintenance item is the engine air filter, which runs maybe $10. Every couple years I end up buying new tires, but I've known people that made it 8+ years on one set. Altogether, with taxes, fuel, car payments, and insurance, it costs me about $400/month to have a car which I don't think is terrible. It would be nice to spend less on transportation, but I really can't imagine life without a car. Even if I lived in a major city with great public transport - I can imagine using public transport to commute, but I'd still want a car. Of course, where I live now, having a car is absolutely mandatory. I've always kind of shaken my head at the HN comments that suggest I could just ride a bike or something - even if I moved right next to my job site (no thanks), for probably eight months of the year the weather is hot enough that even a slow walk will leave you absolutely drenched in sweat. And maybe I'm crazy, but I prefer going to the grocery store for an hour once every two weeks as opposed to dropping by every day...pretty tough to do without a car. And then there really is the abstract freedom aspect - I can take off and go anywhere, anytime. Coordination is never a factor. And as you say, I can live in a much lower CoL area with my car. Which also helps in that there's much less traffic than in a big city, so driving a car is more enjoyable. I have a 30 mile commute wherein I can drive as fast as I want except for the last mile. :)

xienze 10y ago

Now let's talk about how much it costs to live in a part of the country where you don't need a car at all...

fzzzy 10y ago

The verzion $50 doesn't include line access, which is another $20 per smartphone.