5 ms·

Standing Rock Sioux Tribe v. U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

75 points by cinquemb 10y ago

mixermf 10y ago
"...construction of the pipeline on Army Corps land bordering or under Lake Oahe will not go forward at this time."
gragas 10y ago
I'm almost certain that construction will continue at some point in the future.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  Lots of ways still to prevent it.
themartorana 10y ago
I'm not sufficiently versed to have this opinion probably, but why are we building pipelines all over the place? Isn't oil a dinosaur (heh heh) at this point? I mean, no, obviously the world runs on it, but I expect to in my lifetime see insane leaps in solar tech and rollout, huge jumps in the percentages of electric cars on the roads, driverless cars reconfigure if and how people buy cars, and so on. Is the US really growing its oil use so much we need two or three new pipelines?
- slavik81 10y ago
  It's not use that has changed. It's production. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=a https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=m...
- naterr 10y ago
  This pipeline removes 7 unit trains a day from the rails through Minnesota to Illinois, the bakken makes about a million+/- bbls a day, and will for quite some time.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    The solution seems to be to drive the price of oil up then, no?
    - zrail 10y ago
      Higher oil prices are good for the Bakken. It's not economically feasible to get at that oil at lower prices, which is one possible reason for the recent over production from the Middle East. Drive the price down low enough and the companies working in the Bakken fold, send their workers home, and it takes a long time to build back up.
      - koverstreet 10y ago
        But higher oil prices do drive down the use of oil in general.
        zrail 10y ago
        Oil has highly inelastic demand in the short term. People need to drive to work. Goods need to be transported either by train, ship, or truck. Planes are still jam packed with people. In the long term high oil prices will modify demand because people will start buying more efficient vehicles. You can see this happening in the decade starting in 2001 because prices spiked and stayed above $3/gal for the entire decade and fuel efficiency rose to match it.
        e12e 10y ago
        Not to forget one of the most "insidious" uses/dependencies of oil: food production in general and agriculture in particular. No oil, means, as far as I know, without radical change, less (as in not enough) and (much) more expensive food. That's even before one considers transport etc.
neolefty 10y ago
> Furthermore, this case has highlighted the need for a serious discussion on whether there should be nationwide reform with respect to considering tribes’ views on these types of infrastructure projects. I find this whole statement strangely moving for a government memo. I'm sure there will also be a popular cynical reading of this, and I can understand given the history, but hope springs eternal. > Therefore, this fall, we will invite tribes to formal, government-to-government consultations on two questions:
jnordwick 10y ago
Tl;Dr Therefore, construction of the pipeline on Army Corps land bordering or under Lake Oahe will not go forward at this time. I hope this is the start of mineral and property rights for the land. We have people living and dying because they cannot use their land productively. This is socialism people. It kills people. As a Sioux native, let us use out land white men do, collateral on loans, to build business, but you string us up telling us what we can and cannot do with our land. I why can we not be allowed to do what the white man does? As a Sioux I approve.
- mercurial 10y ago
  What is "socialism"?
  - creshal 10y ago
    "Something the government does I don't like"
- Waterluvian 10y ago
  Can you explain what you mean by this being socialism? It doesn't appear to be the socialism I'm familiar with here in Canada.
  - hammock 10y ago
    Could it be definition 1 or 2b here? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism In this particular case he's arguing the government is appropriating private land (means of production) for third-party gain.
  - cpursley 10y ago
    I imagine he means that the natives/first peoples don't have full property rights like those outside of reservations have. If I understand correctly, much of the land on reservations is "communal" (communist or the extream end of "socialist"). Apparently, there's a big issue getting title to land which according to the following article, explains the abundance of mobile homes on reservations: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoppisch/2011/12/13/why-are-indian-reservations-so-poor-a-look-at-the-bottom-1/#739b8eee337a http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoppisch/2011/12/13/why-are-... Part of the typical "bundle of rights" in property ownership is the ability to abstract natural resources (plant, animal, mineral, energy). Without true property rights and ability for land to serve as collateral, the risk of capital lending is very high. You can't finance a home, you can't invest in a manufacturing plant, you can't get a farm loan, you can't mine the land, (both due to lack of mineral rights and that no bank will loan money for the equipment). This is why reservations are poor; same reasons socialist/communist states were/are poor: Tragedy of the commons. This type of land socialism should not be confused with "social" safety nets like health care and social security. If I were a native, I'd be pretty pissed if the "white man" were running his pipelines through my territory, ancestral or not, while I got little in return. In my opinion, the reservations should be brought under the legal jurisdiction of the United States and treated as US territories. Also, learning about Russell Means, a Lakota libertarian activist, is worthwhile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Means
transfire 10y ago
Wow! What was going on over there? It must have gotten pretty big. Of course, the mainstream news barely mentions it. Anyway, some Good news, for a change.
e12e 10y ago
Some more coverage, that people might find relevant: Democracy Now! was on-site reporting on the use of pepper spray and attack dogs: "FULL Exclusive Report: Dakota Access Pipeline Co. Attacks Native Americans with Dogs & Pepper Spray" http://www.democracynow.org/2016/9/6/full_exclusive_report_dakota_access_pipeline http://www.democracynow.org/2016/9/6/full_exclusive_report_d... And was rewarded with an arrest warrant for their reporter: "North Dakota issues arrest warrant for Democracy Now’s Amy Goodman" https://usuncut.com/news/amy-goodman-charged/ https://usuncut.com/news/amy-goodman-charged/ Comment on ruling (linked in this hn story), from the activist side: "Erased By False Victory: Obama Hasn’t Stopped DAPL": https://transformativespaces.org/2016/09/10/erased-by-false-victory-obama-hasnt-stopped-dapl/ https://transformativespaces.org/2016/09/10/erased-by-false-...
merpnderp 10y ago
I've been trying to find more details on the tribe's claim of burial cairns in the pipeline's path. Anyone have any links? How is it possible that these were missed after 15 years of court battles and planning?

75 points by cinquemb 10y ago

mixermf 10y ago

"...construction of the pipeline on Army Corps land bordering or under Lake Oahe will not go forward at this time."

gragas 10y ago

I'm almost certain that construction will continue at some point in the future.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
toomuchtodo 10y ago
Lots of ways still to prevent it.

themartorana 10y ago

I'm not sufficiently versed to have this opinion probably, but why are we building pipelines all over the place? Isn't oil a dinosaur (heh heh) at this point? I mean, no, obviously the world runs on it, but I expect to in my lifetime see insane leaps in solar tech and rollout, huge jumps in the percentages of electric cars on the roads, driverless cars reconfigure if and how people buy cars, and so on. Is the US really growing its oil use so much we need two or three new pipelines?

slavik81 10y ago
It's not use that has changed. It's production. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=a https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=m...
naterr 10y ago
This pipeline removes 7 unit trains a day from the rails through Minnesota to Illinois, the bakken makes about a million+/- bbls a day, and will for quite some time.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  The solution seems to be to drive the price of oil up then, no?
  - zrail 10y ago
    Higher oil prices are good for the Bakken. It's not economically feasible to get at that oil at lower prices, which is one possible reason for the recent over production from the Middle East. Drive the price down low enough and the companies working in the Bakken fold, send their workers home, and it takes a long time to build back up.
    - koverstreet 10y ago
      But higher oil prices do drive down the use of oil in general.
      - zrail 10y ago
        Oil has highly inelastic demand in the short term. People need to drive to work. Goods need to be transported either by train, ship, or truck. Planes are still jam packed with people. In the long term high oil prices will modify demand because people will start buying more efficient vehicles. You can see this happening in the decade starting in 2001 because prices spiked and stayed above $3/gal for the entire decade and fuel efficiency rose to match it.
        e12e 10y ago
        Not to forget one of the most "insidious" uses/dependencies of oil: food production in general and agriculture in particular. No oil, means, as far as I know, without radical change, less (as in not enough) and (much) more expensive food. That's even before one considers transport etc.

neolefty 10y ago

> Furthermore, this case has highlighted the need for a serious discussion on whether there should be nationwide reform with respect to considering tribes’ views on these types of infrastructure projects. I find this whole statement strangely moving for a government memo. I'm sure there will also be a popular cynical reading of this, and I can understand given the history, but hope springs eternal. > Therefore, this fall, we will invite tribes to formal, government-to-government consultations on two questions:

jnordwick 10y ago

Tl;Dr Therefore, construction of the pipeline on Army Corps land bordering or under Lake Oahe will not go forward at this time. I hope this is the start of mineral and property rights for the land. We have people living and dying because they cannot use their land productively. This is socialism people. It kills people. As a Sioux native, let us use out land white men do, collateral on loans, to build business, but you string us up telling us what we can and cannot do with our land. I why can we not be allowed to do what the white man does? As a Sioux I approve.

mercurial 10y ago
What is "socialism"?
- creshal 10y ago
  "Something the government does I don't like"
Waterluvian 10y ago
Can you explain what you mean by this being socialism? It doesn't appear to be the socialism I'm familiar with here in Canada.
- hammock 10y ago
  Could it be definition 1 or 2b here? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism In this particular case he's arguing the government is appropriating private land (means of production) for third-party gain.
- cpursley 10y ago
  I imagine he means that the natives/first peoples don't have full property rights like those outside of reservations have. If I understand correctly, much of the land on reservations is "communal" (communist or the extream end of "socialist"). Apparently, there's a big issue getting title to land which according to the following article, explains the abundance of mobile homes on reservations: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoppisch/2011/12/13/why-are-indian-reservations-so-poor-a-look-at-the-bottom-1/#739b8eee337a http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoppisch/2011/12/13/why-are-... Part of the typical "bundle of rights" in property ownership is the ability to abstract natural resources (plant, animal, mineral, energy). Without true property rights and ability for land to serve as collateral, the risk of capital lending is very high. You can't finance a home, you can't invest in a manufacturing plant, you can't get a farm loan, you can't mine the land, (both due to lack of mineral rights and that no bank will loan money for the equipment). This is why reservations are poor; same reasons socialist/communist states were/are poor: Tragedy of the commons. This type of land socialism should not be confused with "social" safety nets like health care and social security. If I were a native, I'd be pretty pissed if the "white man" were running his pipelines through my territory, ancestral or not, while I got little in return. In my opinion, the reservations should be brought under the legal jurisdiction of the United States and treated as US territories. Also, learning about Russell Means, a Lakota libertarian activist, is worthwhile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Means

transfire 10y ago

Wow! What was going on over there? It must have gotten pretty big. Of course, the mainstream news barely mentions it. Anyway, some Good news, for a change.

e12e 10y ago

Some more coverage, that people might find relevant: Democracy Now! was on-site reporting on the use of pepper spray and attack dogs: "FULL Exclusive Report: Dakota Access Pipeline Co. Attacks Native Americans with Dogs & Pepper Spray" http://www.democracynow.org/2016/9/6/full_exclusive_report_dakota_access_pipeline http://www.democracynow.org/2016/9/6/full_exclusive_report_d... And was rewarded with an arrest warrant for their reporter: "North Dakota issues arrest warrant for Democracy Now’s Amy Goodman" https://usuncut.com/news/amy-goodman-charged/ https://usuncut.com/news/amy-goodman-charged/ Comment on ruling (linked in this hn story), from the activist side: "Erased By False Victory: Obama Hasn’t Stopped DAPL": https://transformativespaces.org/2016/09/10/erased-by-false-victory-obama-hasnt-stopped-dapl/ https://transformativespaces.org/2016/09/10/erased-by-false-...

merpnderp 10y ago

I've been trying to find more details on the tribe's claim of burial cairns in the pipeline's path. Anyone have any links? How is it possible that these were missed after 15 years of court battles and planning?