6 ms·

How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem vs sitting on the sidelines and sharing the work of women who are solving the

by rcba 10y ago

How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem vs sitting on the sidelines and sharing the work of women who are solving the problem? I've been working on an initiative to encourage more of my male peers to do more to make their organisations more diverse and was recently criticised by a female software engineer who told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women are already organising, telling stories and advocating for themselves". All views appreciated!

ozim 10y ago
Dude, politics, stay away from that. Specially if you have to ask such questions.
- rcba 10y ago
  Is this not part of the problem? How will anything get solved if we all shy away from difficult problems?
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    Im not answering your main question because Im not sure I have a good one. I will address the risk. What's happening is an Us vs Them situation developing around that very issue. You might end up fighting with this group in a way that impacts your career badly. If any SJW's in there, they will passive-aggressively bait you into saying or doing something they can portray as sexist or unprofessional while appearing blameless themselves. These people are small percentage of people who take action but quite effective and in groups like you describe more than average. It took me months to counter a talented one years back that wanted my higher position at any cost. I got lucky some women in power knew the both of us enough to find my evidence most believable. So, it's the kind of thing that can be anywhere from a situation you can talk out to a hornets nest that will light you on fire. Be careful. Id say ask more women online for advise focusing on those with stronger, personal skills. Get more opinions.
  - ozim 10y ago
    It is not about not doing anything but you have to pick your battles. It is like saving someone from car in flames. If it will blow up, you will not be able save anyone later. You can't save everyone.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
alaithea 10y ago
I think that woman's view is in the minority. If that particular community is not open to male allies, but you want to help, please keep looking and find one of the many communities that is!
- rcba 10y ago
  Thanks alaithea, not one to give up easily so I'll keep listening, learning and doing my best to help.
xenadu02 10y ago
I've done a little bit of volunteering and the attitude (by far) has been "we are working together for a better future". If someone is asking specifically for a woman's point of view then stay out of that, but otherwise I wouldn't be discouraged.
faitswulff 10y ago
If the initiative exists already, defer to the ones running it. Find out where you can help, but you don't need to be in the spotlight. That would be being part of the problem. Basically: prioritize listening and helping out when possible. When you can't, when there's no initiative, then make it a priority to enable women access to positions of power over initiatives like that - and of the organization in general. Otherwise, stepping in and taking over or preempting feminist initiatives is problematic.
208Gi 10y ago
I'm a male that worked with a feminist group about a decade ago. What I learned is that there are spaces/initiatives where men are welcome and, ones where they are not. As in any human relationship - respect of boundaries is key. Like alaithea said, if you're not welcome in one space - you may be in another. You could also start your own initiative but, remember that top down decision making in the name of helping a group has alienated groups and stifled progress many times before.
- RonanTheGrey 10y ago
  Imagine men saying to women "you are not welcome here" in any context except a bathroom and you begin to see the problem.
  - RodericDay 10y ago
    I'm just baffled by this comment. You seem to mean as in "these women are setting a double standard, see!". As in, the cure these women are proposing is just more of the disease. However, it implies you think that the women told "you are not welcome here" is currently a solved problem, a thing of the past, and that they don't actually face any scenarios were they are told "you are not welcome here". Or, at the very least, that there are more "girls clubs" than "boys clubs", so that you'd have to imagine the girls clubs as boys clubs to "see the problem". There are many, many more de-facto boys clubs than girls clubs, and they usually afford much higher status in society.
    - PavlovsCat 10y ago
      > However, it implies you think It does none of the sort. It correctly points out a double standard in supposed progressive culture and that's it. As for "clubs": > "Putting on a man-tailored suit with shoulder pads and imitating all the worst behavior of men? This is the noblest thing that women can think of?" -- George Carlin But hey, what good old George surely didn't realize (being such a sexist as he was who would never make a whole track ranting just about how bad ass women are), is that "they did it first, they are doing it more". Very inspiring. Yeah, I also say it's more of the same. Support and safe spaces are one thing, using them as fig leaves for some rather more sinister another. There are grey areas and who can draw the line and yadda yadda, but that doesn't mean there are not several "poles" to this stuff, very distinct things, some of them using the language and issues of others to cloak themselves. Is it like communism? You have all these girl clubs to counter all these boys clubs, then ???, and then a society of humans who have first names and other fancy stuff and have grown beyond identity politics? At what point, exactly, would a vehicle for power and double standards cease to be one? All you said is that boys club's are worse - okay, granted, but if the proposed solution, is to make girls clubs just as bad and powerful, if looking any further than that is too "baffling" to even consider -- then what?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
skywhopper 10y ago
There are some great suggestions on ways you can be a good ally on the last question in the article.
ebola1717 10y ago
That comment sounds like it depends a lot on what you mean by "help." Advocating for women, signal boosting, providing mentorship if appropriate, speaking out when women can't speak for themselves, etc. & I don't think anyone would disagree with those. But there's a difference between providing a space for a Women in Engineering meetup and leading the meetup or speaking over them in their spaces.
wingless 10y ago
The lack of gender diversity in tech is NOT a problem. Women choose not to become software engineers for the same reason they avoid all STEM fields. This recent push to make everyone a software engineer is such an obvious attempt by companies to push down wages. You will be wasting your spare time trying to reduce your salary.
- wpietri 10y ago
  If you would talk with some actual women in tech, you would learn that many women choose not to become software engineers (and choose to leave at 2x the rate of men) because it is often a shitty environment for them. You would also learn that plenty of people are working on making a more inclusive industry for reasons that have nothing to do with pushing down their own wages. I'm one of them.
  - rndgermandude 10y ago
    It's often a shitty environment for men, too. Now the question is: Is it really that much more shitty for women, are there other factors at play for them leaving (or not joining in the first place), or a combination of both. I'd say the latter: The environment is a bit shittier on average for a women and therefore should be improve to be equally shitty for all, but there are other factors at play here too.
    - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
      There's also a distinction to be made between "things are shitty for everyone, and men tend to handle it better" and "things are shitty for women in particular because of anti-female sexism". Like, construction work is also a shitty environment that's shittier for women. There's significant danger and hard physical activity, and for men are generally better able to handle that. The amount of women in construction may also be driven down by sexist behavior as well - I'm not familiar with how working in that field is. If men are more willing to put up with shitty work environments because it makes them more money, that'll both create male-dominated fields and be a problem that anti-misogyny campaigns are useless against.
tjic 10y ago
> How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem There is, objectively, different representations of different groups in engineering. There is no objective reason to think that this is a "problem". Whether it's a problem, a feature, or just an unimportant fact derives from one's value system...and different value systems are just that: different. To assume that this is a problem - that it's obviously and necessarily a problem - skips past the fact that there are different opinions, and - values being values - no way to prove one set right and one set wrong. We might as well talk about the "chocolate icecream" problem, or the "punk rock" problem.
- rcba 10y ago
  Interesting, thanks for the response. In my opinion, if people from different demographic groups have different opportunities to succeed there is a problem. Everyone should have the same opportunity. Secondly, what about the data that suggests gender and ethnic diversity has a positive financial/commercial impact on businesses? E.g http://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/organization/our-insights/why-diversity-matters http://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/organization/our-...
Mz 10y ago
The primary thing men need to do is become more self aware of ways in which they unintentionally exclude women and stop doing that. I am a bit leery of your description of trying to encourage more male peers to do more to make their organizations more diverse. In my experience, trying to be inclusive is generally a poor approach to this problem space. Just work on not being exclusive and the people who want to be there will show up, in essence.
- rcba 10y ago
  Thanks Mz, I agree. What I meant to convey is that I'd love to see all of my male peers genuinely caring about diversity and ensuring that they listen, learn and actively prevent exclusive behaviours/practices within their organisations.
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  I find both approaches combined to be most effective. People do show up more often if you knock out barriers. This leaves the common preconceptions, expectations, and do on that can reduce entry attempts if its employment or sustained effort if it's something like getting women to learn IT stuff or enjoy computers. That said, I believe it's important that the situation stays meritocratic where women know they earned their place based on skill. It's why I favor mentoring, blind auditions, women-oriented events in parallel to business/projects, and so on. They get increase diversity without problems from approaches like pure quotas or focusing on employee gender more than skill in how they're treated.
  - Mz 10y ago
    My personal experience is that being very thorough in rooting out barriers to entry has a powerful impact, like water rushing downhill after a dam bursts. But you have to be incredibly thorough to get that effect.
    - nickpsecurity 10y ago
      I agree. Im just doubtful a full pull effect is as easy to pull off in most places as a good effort at pull along with gentle, steady pushes.
wpietri 10y ago
As a guy myself, I am in favor of guys being active. Men, after all, embody most of the problem; leaving it to women to solve is putting a burden on people who are already getting a raw deal. But yes, guys should be aware that their common instinct to come in and dominate a thing will often not be well received. Partly because dudes pushing to dominate is how the problem was created and is maintained. Partly because as men we are less likely to actually understand a problem that we don't experience and therefore have thought less about. And partly because there are plenty of women who have been traumatized by men acting like that in the past, and so reasonably see it as a danger signal. So I encourage guys who want to solve this problem to spend a very large amount of time listening and learning. To always be seeking to defer to the people who are actual experts and/or who are already working on it. To pick up the work that is the least showy, the least glory-filled, the least status-gaining. In short, to approach the work with a deep humility, a high level of respect for the people who have lived at the sharp end of this problem for years.
- exstudent2 10y ago
  If you see this as a problem that needs fixing then more power to you. Many however see no problem. Women have free will and can choose the career of their liking. Also "Men, after all, embody most of the problem;" will not be winning many converts to your point of view. Men are not a uniform being. You're painting with some really broad brush strokes and the only people who are going to hear what you say are those that already fully believe it themselves.
  - wpietri 10y ago
    > Many however see no problem. This is true with most problems. How many people saw a problem with the Windows hegemony? That doesn't mean it's not a problem, just that many people are not in a place to see it. > Women have free will and can choose the career of their liking. Yes and no, in that order. "Career" is an essentially social concept. Consider, for example, that women got less than 10% of medical and legal degrees as recently as 1972: http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/hua_hsu/cohen_doctorlawyer.png http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/hua_hsu/cohen_do... What changed between now and then wasn't women's free will, which they have always had. It was the social context. > Men are not a uniform being. You're painting with some really broad brush strokes Sure. So are you. I think most people here are smart enough to understand how a generalization works. > "Men, after all, embody most of the problem;" will not be winning many converts to your point of view. Sure, there are people who, for the moment, are such delicate flowers that they cannot admit that they might be part of the problem. But if those people "convert", they will not do much good.
ue_ 10y ago
I really do not mean to be confrontational, as I understand that this is a charged topic on all sides, but I'd like to ask why making tech more diverse (in terms of race or gender) is preferable. My first instinct would be to say that if it's more diverse, women or racial minorities are more likely to come into tech because they might feel more comfortable there. But then we're back at square one: why do we want them to come? Please make no mistake, I'm not saying that diversity is bad, but I don't see why it's good either, and further why it must be pursued.
- klara_engineer 10y ago
  A) I see the tech industry shaping the future for the world. The world is comprised of a diverse group of people. How can a narrow group of people understand the needs of everyone? B) There are a shortage of labor in tech
  - exstudent2 10y ago
    > I see the tech industry shaping the future for the world. The world is comprised of a diverse group of people. How can a narrow group of people understand the needs of everyone? People should build tech that they find interesting. It's not our job as engineers to try to save the world. I program because I find it inherently fascinating. If other people benefit from my work, great. If not, great. > There are a shortage of labor in tech When programmer salaries rival those of upper management then we can say there's a shortage. Right now there's a desire to maximize executive salaries while minimizing programmer costs. That what "women in tech" is really about.
    - nickpsecurity 10y ago
      I agree the shortage is artificial but the other part makes little sense. The parent comment didn't say save the world. It said understand their needs: also called marketing. From startups to incumbents, they make money by figuring out what people want or need then building it. Needs/wants are incredibly diverse across a diverse set of people. So, shouldn't there be diversity in marketing and product development side of tech to avoid missing good opportunities or getting on paths that were obviously bad (to another group in company).
cynoclast 10y ago
I've not been convinced that 'the gender diversity problem' is a problem. The only 'solution' I see is to force women who don't want to work in tech to work in tech, but since I believe in female agency - and that women have chosen something other than tech to do with their lives - that too would be wrong.
- Mz 10y ago
  The problem is that some women who would like to be there basically feel forced out. As you point out, active inclusion does not work. But reducing exclusion can help enormously. However, it isn't an easy thing to make happen.
  - generic_user 10y ago
    There are thousands of Men that are 'forced out' of technology jobs every day due to not making the cut during there interviews or leaving for a long list of reasons. No one has shown that the general environment in technology focus businesses is more hostel to women then Men. It can be stressful and hostel to everyone equally. I believe that is the case. Woman have better options for careers in many professions with less stress and saner hours.
    - Mz 10y ago
      I appear to be the top ranked woman on HN. I have a Certificate in GIS. I have dealt with quite a lot of crap that I am confident is due to my gender. I am aware that men are not welcomed with open arms merely for being male. But women can do everything "right" and find it still isn't enough. It is a genuine and frustrating problem for me personally. It is a problem space I have worked on for some years. I am sorry you remain unconvinced. It is extremely real to me.
      - generic_user 10y ago
        Men also have a lot of 'crap' that is because of there gender also. Lost jobs and being looked over for promotions for the explicit reason that there was an artificial quota for people with a Female genitalia to fill certain positions. Regardless of how unskilled or uninterested they were in the work. I am sure many Men have had this brutal injustice perpetrated against them. There is a level of aggressiveness and bulling allowed towards Men which would never be allowed towards Woman. It is simply seen as 'survival of the fittest' in most organisations and even encouraged by management in many cases. Serious health problems, depression and even death have resulted because of these type of environments. Where is the outrage for this injustice? "women can do everything "right" and find it still isn't enough." Yes, and so can Men. This is not gender specific this is just the brutal reality of working life. Most people have been crushed at one point or another in there career by what seems like an undeserved attack on them personally. If you can not separate that personal experience from the larger Industry and world in general you are putting yourself into permanent psychosis of fear and oppression. The world does not owe you anything even if you're the best, smartest, nicest person in the world. You have to work through hardships and move on in life.
morgtheborg 10y ago
> I've been working on an initiative to encourage more of my male peers to do more to make their organisations more diverse and was recently criticised by a female software engineer who told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women are already organising, telling stories and advocating for themselves". I think that is the silliest thing. It sucks but men follow men. I hate that reality, but a key element of my happiness at my current position is that I DON'T have to be the advocate for change or the enforcer. I had to at the very beginning, but once it became clear what my standards were (pretty basic things like don't call people 'bitch') the co-founders began to enforce it. That was fucking awesome. It made me feel supported and as if I wasn't being 'that women', but rather we all were acknowledging it was inappropriate. Not inappropriate because I was there, but simply not okay in a professional environment. I often think the feminist movement would be doing a heck of a lot better if we had some Navy Seal as the figurehead giving most of the speeches. The point of sexism is that people don't respect women, so broadcasting "women are people and deserve the following" from a woman is clearly not going to do as much as having it broadcast by some alpha male. Or perhaps I'm too cynical.
jshevek 10y ago
> told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women are already organising, telling stories and advocating for themselves". At this point, I think you have to ask yourself if these people really have good values, appropriate goals, healthy approaches to reaching those goals.

by rcba 10y ago

ozim 10y ago

Dude, politics, stay away from that. Specially if you have to ask such questions.

rcba 10y ago
Is this not part of the problem? How will anything get solved if we all shy away from difficult problems?
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  Im not answering your main question because Im not sure I have a good one. I will address the risk. What's happening is an Us vs Them situation developing around that very issue. You might end up fighting with this group in a way that impacts your career badly. If any SJW's in there, they will passive-aggressively bait you into saying or doing something they can portray as sexist or unprofessional while appearing blameless themselves. These people are small percentage of people who take action but quite effective and in groups like you describe more than average. It took me months to counter a talented one years back that wanted my higher position at any cost. I got lucky some women in power knew the both of us enough to find my evidence most believable. So, it's the kind of thing that can be anywhere from a situation you can talk out to a hornets nest that will light you on fire. Be careful. Id say ask more women online for advise focusing on those with stronger, personal skills. Get more opinions.
- ozim 10y ago
  It is not about not doing anything but you have to pick your battles. It is like saving someone from car in flames. If it will blow up, you will not be able save anyone later. You can't save everyone.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

alaithea 10y ago

I think that woman's view is in the minority. If that particular community is not open to male allies, but you want to help, please keep looking and find one of the many communities that is!

rcba 10y ago
Thanks alaithea, not one to give up easily so I'll keep listening, learning and doing my best to help.

xenadu02 10y ago

I've done a little bit of volunteering and the attitude (by far) has been "we are working together for a better future". If someone is asking specifically for a woman's point of view then stay out of that, but otherwise I wouldn't be discouraged.

faitswulff 10y ago

If the initiative exists already, defer to the ones running it. Find out where you can help, but you don't need to be in the spotlight. That would be being part of the problem. Basically: prioritize listening and helping out when possible. When you can't, when there's no initiative, then make it a priority to enable women access to positions of power over initiatives like that - and of the organization in general. Otherwise, stepping in and taking over or preempting feminist initiatives is problematic.

208Gi 10y ago

I'm a male that worked with a feminist group about a decade ago. What I learned is that there are spaces/initiatives where men are welcome and, ones where they are not. As in any human relationship - respect of boundaries is key. Like alaithea said, if you're not welcome in one space - you may be in another. You could also start your own initiative but, remember that top down decision making in the name of helping a group has alienated groups and stifled progress many times before.

RonanTheGrey 10y ago
Imagine men saying to women "you are not welcome here" in any context except a bathroom and you begin to see the problem.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  I'm just baffled by this comment. You seem to mean as in "these women are setting a double standard, see!". As in, the cure these women are proposing is just more of the disease. However, it implies you think that the women told "you are not welcome here" is currently a solved problem, a thing of the past, and that they don't actually face any scenarios were they are told "you are not welcome here". Or, at the very least, that there are more "girls clubs" than "boys clubs", so that you'd have to imagine the girls clubs as boys clubs to "see the problem". There are many, many more de-facto boys clubs than girls clubs, and they usually afford much higher status in society.
  - PavlovsCat 10y ago
    > However, it implies you think It does none of the sort. It correctly points out a double standard in supposed progressive culture and that's it. As for "clubs": > "Putting on a man-tailored suit with shoulder pads and imitating all the worst behavior of men? This is the noblest thing that women can think of?" -- George Carlin But hey, what good old George surely didn't realize (being such a sexist as he was who would never make a whole track ranting just about how bad ass women are), is that "they did it first, they are doing it more". Very inspiring. Yeah, I also say it's more of the same. Support and safe spaces are one thing, using them as fig leaves for some rather more sinister another. There are grey areas and who can draw the line and yadda yadda, but that doesn't mean there are not several "poles" to this stuff, very distinct things, some of them using the language and issues of others to cloak themselves. Is it like communism? You have all these girl clubs to counter all these boys clubs, then ???, and then a society of humans who have first names and other fancy stuff and have grown beyond identity politics? At what point, exactly, would a vehicle for power and double standards cease to be one? All you said is that boys club's are worse - okay, granted, but if the proposed solution, is to make girls clubs just as bad and powerful, if looking any further than that is too "baffling" to even consider -- then what?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

skywhopper 10y ago

There are some great suggestions on ways you can be a good ally on the last question in the article.

ebola1717 10y ago

That comment sounds like it depends a lot on what you mean by "help." Advocating for women, signal boosting, providing mentorship if appropriate, speaking out when women can't speak for themselves, etc. & I don't think anyone would disagree with those. But there's a difference between providing a space for a Women in Engineering meetup and leading the meetup or speaking over them in their spaces.

wingless 10y ago

The lack of gender diversity in tech is NOT a problem. Women choose not to become software engineers for the same reason they avoid all STEM fields. This recent push to make everyone a software engineer is such an obvious attempt by companies to push down wages. You will be wasting your spare time trying to reduce your salary.

wpietri 10y ago
If you would talk with some actual women in tech, you would learn that many women choose not to become software engineers (and choose to leave at 2x the rate of men) because it is often a shitty environment for them. You would also learn that plenty of people are working on making a more inclusive industry for reasons that have nothing to do with pushing down their own wages. I'm one of them.
- rndgermandude 10y ago
  It's often a shitty environment for men, too. Now the question is: Is it really that much more shitty for women, are there other factors at play for them leaving (or not joining in the first place), or a combination of both. I'd say the latter: The environment is a bit shittier on average for a women and therefore should be improve to be equally shitty for all, but there are other factors at play here too.
  - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
    There's also a distinction to be made between "things are shitty for everyone, and men tend to handle it better" and "things are shitty for women in particular because of anti-female sexism". Like, construction work is also a shitty environment that's shittier for women. There's significant danger and hard physical activity, and for men are generally better able to handle that. The amount of women in construction may also be driven down by sexist behavior as well - I'm not familiar with how working in that field is. If men are more willing to put up with shitty work environments because it makes them more money, that'll both create male-dominated fields and be a problem that anti-misogyny campaigns are useless against.

tjic 10y ago

> How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem There is, objectively, different representations of different groups in engineering. There is no objective reason to think that this is a "problem". Whether it's a problem, a feature, or just an unimportant fact derives from one's value system...and different value systems are just that: different. To assume that this is a problem - that it's obviously and necessarily a problem - skips past the fact that there are different opinions, and - values being values - no way to prove one set right and one set wrong. We might as well talk about the "chocolate icecream" problem, or the "punk rock" problem.

rcba 10y ago
Interesting, thanks for the response. In my opinion, if people from different demographic groups have different opportunities to succeed there is a problem. Everyone should have the same opportunity. Secondly, what about the data that suggests gender and ethnic diversity has a positive financial/commercial impact on businesses? E.g http://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/organization/our-insights/why-diversity-matters http://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/organization/our-...

Mz 10y ago

The primary thing men need to do is become more self aware of ways in which they unintentionally exclude women and stop doing that. I am a bit leery of your description of trying to encourage more male peers to do more to make their organizations more diverse. In my experience, trying to be inclusive is generally a poor approach to this problem space. Just work on not being exclusive and the people who want to be there will show up, in essence.

rcba 10y ago
Thanks Mz, I agree. What I meant to convey is that I'd love to see all of my male peers genuinely caring about diversity and ensuring that they listen, learn and actively prevent exclusive behaviours/practices within their organisations.
nickpsecurity 10y ago
I find both approaches combined to be most effective. People do show up more often if you knock out barriers. This leaves the common preconceptions, expectations, and do on that can reduce entry attempts if its employment or sustained effort if it's something like getting women to learn IT stuff or enjoy computers. That said, I believe it's important that the situation stays meritocratic where women know they earned their place based on skill. It's why I favor mentoring, blind auditions, women-oriented events in parallel to business/projects, and so on. They get increase diversity without problems from approaches like pure quotas or focusing on employee gender more than skill in how they're treated.
- Mz 10y ago
  My personal experience is that being very thorough in rooting out barriers to entry has a powerful impact, like water rushing downhill after a dam bursts. But you have to be incredibly thorough to get that effect.
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    I agree. Im just doubtful a full pull effect is as easy to pull off in most places as a good effort at pull along with gentle, steady pushes.

wpietri 10y ago

As a guy myself, I am in favor of guys being active. Men, after all, embody most of the problem; leaving it to women to solve is putting a burden on people who are already getting a raw deal. But yes, guys should be aware that their common instinct to come in and dominate a thing will often not be well received. Partly because dudes pushing to dominate is how the problem was created and is maintained. Partly because as men we are less likely to actually understand a problem that we don't experience and therefore have thought less about. And partly because there are plenty of women who have been traumatized by men acting like that in the past, and so reasonably see it as a danger signal. So I encourage guys who want to solve this problem to spend a very large amount of time listening and learning. To always be seeking to defer to the people who are actual experts and/or who are already working on it. To pick up the work that is the least showy, the least glory-filled, the least status-gaining. In short, to approach the work with a deep humility, a high level of respect for the people who have lived at the sharp end of this problem for years.

exstudent2 10y ago
If you see this as a problem that needs fixing then more power to you. Many however see no problem. Women have free will and can choose the career of their liking. Also "Men, after all, embody most of the problem;" will not be winning many converts to your point of view. Men are not a uniform being. You're painting with some really broad brush strokes and the only people who are going to hear what you say are those that already fully believe it themselves.
- wpietri 10y ago
  > Many however see no problem. This is true with most problems. How many people saw a problem with the Windows hegemony? That doesn't mean it's not a problem, just that many people are not in a place to see it. > Women have free will and can choose the career of their liking. Yes and no, in that order. "Career" is an essentially social concept. Consider, for example, that women got less than 10% of medical and legal degrees as recently as 1972: http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/hua_hsu/cohen_doctorlawyer.png http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/hua_hsu/cohen_do... What changed between now and then wasn't women's free will, which they have always had. It was the social context. > Men are not a uniform being. You're painting with some really broad brush strokes Sure. So are you. I think most people here are smart enough to understand how a generalization works. > "Men, after all, embody most of the problem;" will not be winning many converts to your point of view. Sure, there are people who, for the moment, are such delicate flowers that they cannot admit that they might be part of the problem. But if those people "convert", they will not do much good.

ue_ 10y ago

I really do not mean to be confrontational, as I understand that this is a charged topic on all sides, but I'd like to ask why making tech more diverse (in terms of race or gender) is preferable. My first instinct would be to say that if it's more diverse, women or racial minorities are more likely to come into tech because they might feel more comfortable there. But then we're back at square one: why do we want them to come? Please make no mistake, I'm not saying that diversity is bad, but I don't see why it's good either, and further why it must be pursued.

klara_engineer 10y ago
A) I see the tech industry shaping the future for the world. The world is comprised of a diverse group of people. How can a narrow group of people understand the needs of everyone? B) There are a shortage of labor in tech
- exstudent2 10y ago
  > I see the tech industry shaping the future for the world. The world is comprised of a diverse group of people. How can a narrow group of people understand the needs of everyone? People should build tech that they find interesting. It's not our job as engineers to try to save the world. I program because I find it inherently fascinating. If other people benefit from my work, great. If not, great. > There are a shortage of labor in tech When programmer salaries rival those of upper management then we can say there's a shortage. Right now there's a desire to maximize executive salaries while minimizing programmer costs. That what "women in tech" is really about.
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    I agree the shortage is artificial but the other part makes little sense. The parent comment didn't say save the world. It said understand their needs: also called marketing. From startups to incumbents, they make money by figuring out what people want or need then building it. Needs/wants are incredibly diverse across a diverse set of people. So, shouldn't there be diversity in marketing and product development side of tech to avoid missing good opportunities or getting on paths that were obviously bad (to another group in company).

cynoclast 10y ago

I've not been convinced that 'the gender diversity problem' is a problem. The only 'solution' I see is to force women who don't want to work in tech to work in tech, but since I believe in female agency - and that women have chosen something other than tech to do with their lives - that too would be wrong.

Mz 10y ago
The problem is that some women who would like to be there basically feel forced out. As you point out, active inclusion does not work. But reducing exclusion can help enormously. However, it isn't an easy thing to make happen.
- generic_user 10y ago
  There are thousands of Men that are 'forced out' of technology jobs every day due to not making the cut during there interviews or leaving for a long list of reasons. No one has shown that the general environment in technology focus businesses is more hostel to women then Men. It can be stressful and hostel to everyone equally. I believe that is the case. Woman have better options for careers in many professions with less stress and saner hours.
  - Mz 10y ago
    I appear to be the top ranked woman on HN. I have a Certificate in GIS. I have dealt with quite a lot of crap that I am confident is due to my gender. I am aware that men are not welcomed with open arms merely for being male. But women can do everything "right" and find it still isn't enough. It is a genuine and frustrating problem for me personally. It is a problem space I have worked on for some years. I am sorry you remain unconvinced. It is extremely real to me.
    - generic_user 10y ago
      Men also have a lot of 'crap' that is because of there gender also. Lost jobs and being looked over for promotions for the explicit reason that there was an artificial quota for people with a Female genitalia to fill certain positions. Regardless of how unskilled or uninterested they were in the work. I am sure many Men have had this brutal injustice perpetrated against them. There is a level of aggressiveness and bulling allowed towards Men which would never be allowed towards Woman. It is simply seen as 'survival of the fittest' in most organisations and even encouraged by management in many cases. Serious health problems, depression and even death have resulted because of these type of environments. Where is the outrage for this injustice? "women can do everything "right" and find it still isn't enough." Yes, and so can Men. This is not gender specific this is just the brutal reality of working life. Most people have been crushed at one point or another in there career by what seems like an undeserved attack on them personally. If you can not separate that personal experience from the larger Industry and world in general you are putting yourself into permanent psychosis of fear and oppression. The world does not owe you anything even if you're the best, smartest, nicest person in the world. You have to work through hardships and move on in life.

morgtheborg 10y ago

> I've been working on an initiative to encourage more of my male peers to do more to make their organisations more diverse and was recently criticised by a female software engineer who told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women are already organising, telling stories and advocating for themselves". I think that is the silliest thing. It sucks but men follow men. I hate that reality, but a key element of my happiness at my current position is that I DON'T have to be the advocate for change or the enforcer. I had to at the very beginning, but once it became clear what my standards were (pretty basic things like don't call people 'bitch') the co-founders began to enforce it. That was fucking awesome. It made me feel supported and as if I wasn't being 'that women', but rather we all were acknowledging it was inappropriate. Not inappropriate because I was there, but simply not okay in a professional environment. I often think the feminist movement would be doing a heck of a lot better if we had some Navy Seal as the figurehead giving most of the speeches. The point of sexism is that people don't respect women, so broadcasting "women are people and deserve the following" from a woman is clearly not going to do as much as having it broadcast by some alpha male. Or perhaps I'm too cynical.

jshevek 10y ago

> told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women are already organising, telling stories and advocating for themselves". At this point, I think you have to ask yourself if these people really have good values, appropriate goals, healthy approaches to reaching those goals.