14 ms·

Video Games Aren't Art, We're Better

89 points by phenylene 10y ago

RileyKyeden 10y ago
Didn't this die out a week after the game press went wild with it back in 2013? The author of this post couldn't even find anything more recent than Roger Ebert's article.
- JanneVee 10y ago
  No it didn't die out. It has continued and even floated ideas like that the players that are socially awkward are immature and shouldn't be catered to. It didn't go over well with some people.
skybrian 10y ago
Nice rant, but part of the argument seems to be that games are lucrative and addictive so they're better. That would be true of gambling too. The question is, are they worth spending time on? I do spend a lot of time on certain video games, and I have my doubts. It's sort of like someone saying a book was so compelling that they read it in one sitting. Yeah, okay, so the plot sucked you in, but are you happy afterwards that you did that?
- CoolGuySteve 10y ago
  There are diminishing returns with regards to time spent, but I do think playing games can make you a better person. Dark Souls teaches patience and consistency, Civilization teaches you to think about exponential growth among many other things. Even DOOM 2016 on Ultra Violence or Nightmare is a completely different game than on the default difficulty level. The trick is recognizing these diminishing returns and separating them from your enjoyment of the experience. It may sound glib, but I find it much more worthwhile than writing comments on Hacker News only to experience the stress of having them nitpicked by pedants trying to score imaginary internet points. We're still doing it, but I don't think it's worth my time. Rare is the comment reply that changes my mind and I bet that goes for most people. I'm just a masochist I guess.
- adrianm 10y ago
  On a good year, I'll play between one and two games. Not because I wouldn't play more, but because the quantity of great games I wouldn't hesitate to put in the same category as great literature or film is usually zero. Last year was special though. I really can't describe how impactful The Witcher 3 was for me. It really opened my eyes to just how great of an art form video games can be. I don't regret a single moment I played that game and its expansions.
  - stuxnet79 10y ago
    I didn't even bother downloading The Witcher 3 on Steam because I knew I'd get sucked in, and would wake up months from now filled with deep regret. But then you are saying the absolute opposite. Why did I have to read this comment ... ? :(
    - creshal 10y ago
      I found the game so horrible I just bit the bullet and bought the books instead. Better story, and no craptastic combat system to struggle with. Wohoo.
    - thenomad 10y ago
      I have recently been comparing The Witcher 3's place in gaming to Casablanca's place in filmmaking. It's that good. It's uneven - some sections are significantly stronger than others - but the strong ones are incredibly so.
    - mentando 10y ago
      Why would you regret it though? Do you fear to invest too much time in it?
      - stuxnet79 10y ago
        Yes! Just started full time work and I have little enough free time as it is. But I've been very stressed the past couple of months so maybe it will be alright to unwind for a couple weeks or so after work. I might download it during the weekend, heard too many good things about Witcher 3.
- zzalpha 10y ago
  Yeah, okay, so the plot sucked you in, but are you happy afterwards that you did that? Uh, yes. Why wouldn't I be? Should art not be compelling? Enjoyable? Must it necessarily be "challenging" (whatever that means) to be "worthwhile" (whatever that means)? Frankly, the real problem with the author is they give a crap what people think about games as a medium. Art. Not art. Who cares? When Dickens was writing, he was writing to entertain a mass audience. At the time I'm sure there was someone somewhere complaining that since it wasn't written in Latin and thus accessible to folks it wasn't worthwhile. And in the end it just doesn't matter. So enjoy your games or books or comics or whatever captures you and let others do the same. Life is far too short to waste time giving a crap about stuff like this.
  - skybrian 10y ago
    Is worrying about crap like this more or less worthwhile than playing video games? Seems like you say it's less worthwhile (and apparently feel strongly about that), but that's a judgment call too. Yes, you can use your free time however you like. It's still a decision everyone needs to make, somehow.
    - zzalpha 10y ago
      Sure, so make that decision. But do it based on what you want and what you value, and let others do the same. Wasting time being concerned if someone else thinks what you're doing or reading or playing is important or valuable is a silly waste of time that could be better spent actually living.
      - skybrian 10y ago
        Totally agree that you shouldn't be much concerned about what other people think. (Especially on the Internet.) I don't agree that thinking about what you want to do with your life is a waste of time. I also don't think you need to decide on this alone - talking to other people about it seems quite okay.
  - r_smart 10y ago
danso 10y ago
> We're winning because we offer something better than art. We offer Experience...Stop using the word 'art'. Erase it from your dictionary. It's too weak a word. I want nothing less than to compel you. I am coming to consume all your thoughts, all your attention. I want to absorb you to the point where it threatens your marriage and your livelihood. Not all art is passive though. There has been performance and interactive art that can be pretty engaging. "Sleep No More", for instance. So I think the OP needlessly argues about the popular connotations of the word "art" That said I completely agree with him that games such as "Last of Us" are not the ideal when it comes to video game as art. Just because a game's cutscenes can compete with a feature film in terms of theatrical quality does not mean it's great art as a video game. Nor does lacking cinematic quality disqualify a game from being art. So far my favorite artistic epiphany from a game, not including games that shoot for being "art" more than being a playable game, came from the original "Portal". There's a segment late in the game where you're asked to kill a inanimate object that you've been carrying around for most of the game. You know that it's inanimate. Yet as the narrator taunts you, I was tense the entire way because I was almost convinced it was a living breathing thing, solely because of the length of time I had been interacting with it. I half expected it to scream when I killed it. When nothing happened (I think) I laughed out of sheer relief. It was a feeling much more intense than watching a horror movie, and the only reason it was so intense was because of the interactive role I had -- both in carrying it and then killing it. That's the kind of unique artistic experience that a game can have that's not easily replicated in other mediums, certainly not film or books.
- im4w1l 10y ago
  You must be very sensitive?
- jayjay71 10y ago
  I think The Stanley Parable is a much better example of an artistic experience. The creator made another game called The Beginner's Guide which I thought was just as good. Limbo, Papers Please, I Am Bread, Please Don't Touch Anything, are all good examples of games I would also consider art. These games are genuinely different and many of them are considered incredibly enjoyable by most people. If you want something which really is just art and not much of a game, The Cat And The Coup is free on Steam. Frog Fractions 2 is also free and you can find it using Google (you have to play the whole game to understand). For the most part I think gamers and developers are a bit sensitive about their medium, trying to argue it's "art" because it has a positive connotation. I think they should just enjoy it for what it is, as most games are designed to be fun instead of something else. That said, I think VR might try to change this. A friend of mine at Oculus mentioned how it's the very early stages, comparing VR to movies from ~100 years ago. Back then they just filmed plays, as they didn't realize what they could do with the medium. I'm sure VR will have lots of typical blockbusters following generic formulas, but I think indie developers (of which there are more every day) will build some pretty incredibly stuff in the coming years.
mccoyspace 10y ago
Great. Can we artists get our term back, then? Thanks.
- idlewords 10y ago
  I think the hackers are still using it.
  - krisdol 10y ago
    Can hackers get their name back too while we're at it?
zaaakk 10y ago
Awful article. If you've never read a book that could captivate you as much as Doom, then you've probably just never read literature at a serious level. I stopped reading when the author offered clickbait "best games of [year]" lists as evidence of the artistic accomplishment of video games. I'm totally excited by video games as a medium, but I've never seen anything that compared in creative quality to something like Pynchon.
- andrewclunn 10y ago
  Yeah, the author seems to be taking the modernist approach aesthetically (where the goal of art is to convey an emotion, idea, or state of mind) and suggesting that games can produce states of mind that other forms of entertainment cannot. He seems oblivious to the advantages of other art forms that just don't work as well in a gaming medium.
- ralusek 10y ago
  The author was an idiot for trying to make it a competition, but so are you if you think you have a point here. The question is always if games even qualify as a medium by which to express art, for which the answer is of course. Once you accept it as a medium for art, there is no question of what is "better." That's just up to you. Some of the best artistic experiences I've had have come from Portal 2, Ori and the Blind Forest, Papers Please, Okami, among many others. I'm not here to argue if Pynchon is better, to me he's not. There's no competition, because it's subjective, and a waste of an argument.
  - zaaakk 10y ago
    Yeah, I'm not saying they aren't art. They are, and like I said before, I'm excited about the medium. I just don't think there's anything with the intellectual depth or creative virtuosity as Pynchon-yet. It's a young medium with a high bar of entry.
    - michaelchisari 10y ago
      There's no question whether video games are art. We need to move past that false dilemma. The question is whether individual video games qualify as quality or "good" art. Unfortunately, I think the answer is generally a "no". But the potential is certainly there. It's a very new medium.
wellpast 10y ago
> I love literature and theatre. I love great movies. Yet, I can't remember any work of art, no matter how good, that consumed and drained me as much as the Cyberdemon in DOOM. But unlike many encounters with art, DOOM never changed my worldview.
- sskates 10y ago
  I remember one of the most mind blowing moments for me was the big reveal halfway through Knights of the Old Republic. Dunno if it counts as "changing my worldview" but it was the same feeling I got after watching The Matrix- I didn't know I could be so impacted by art.
  - creshal 10y ago
    KotoR's storytelling is on a much different level than DOOM's, however. DOOM only has an excuse plot to make you go and rip out demon intestines, which is the main feature of the game. With KotoR, the story is.
- SmellyGeekBoy 10y ago
  > But unlike many encounters with art, DOOM never changed my worldview. Perhaps not, but the political narrative of the Deus Ex series has certainly got me thinking on issues I hadn't considered before.
- thenomad 10y ago
  I've heard story after story of people finding games changed how they interacted with the world - often teaching them patience, perseverance, and optimism about eventual outcome. It's a prevalent theme amongst Dark Souls players in particular.
  - J5892 10y ago
    I'm not sure I want to be around someone whose worldview was molded by Dark Souls.
dschiptsov 10y ago
World and behavior modeling - the AI parts of the craft, are definitely a next level of an Art - the abilities we used attribute to our primitive gods.
jaywunder 10y ago
I don't see why the author feels the need for something to be either immersive or art – or whatever dichotomy he's trying to draw here. There are plenty of paintings and books and music that transport people. There are plenty of video games that don't. Media is media, no matter what form. The quality of the media will discern whether the media is good or not, the form of the media doesn't matter.
bananaoomarang 10y ago
This argument always seems like a straw man to me. 'Art' is a broad and loosely (looser and looser) defined term, there is no reason video games can or can't be a part of that for you. Many people seem to constantly yearn to define some sort of video game literary canon. To earn that sort of platform takes many more years and a society more willing to accept video games as valid emotional experiences and/or effective question posers. They are not ideal for either, they are ideal for producing addictive feedback loops. The author here is keen to put these loops under the same banner as Kubrick or Tolstoy, presumably to justify his investment to himself as much as anyone else. Loving Doom is nothing to be ashamed of; you can love Tarkovsky films too.
mikekchar 10y ago
One day I want to write a game that is as powerful for me as Tonari no Totoro. It's a silly kids movie, but it simply drips Japan. I can't even put into words how complete that movie is. From the unspoken backdrop of the story, to the lush scenery, to the sounds of nature, to the character design... Virtually every frame has something to offer the viewer. To me it is a historical artifact. Just like the author mentions of games, it transports my life to that of a child in post war Japan. I have not played any game that gives an experience like that. I am actually quite a big fan of fantasy, science fiction and fiction in general, but this movie blows me away by how real it is (despite containing a bus made out of a cat). I think video games have a lot of potential, but generally lack focus. In fact the long running nature of games and ability to explore everything works against them. The more freedom you give the user, the harder it is to focus them. They push the boundaries and find that there is nothing behind them. Alternatively, they are locked into a perspective unnaturally. Video games are a great medium for art, but I think there is still a lot of virgin territory to explore.
- wishinghand 10y ago
  It's not "My Neighbor Totoro" but "Ni no Kuni" is a very Miyazaki-esque video game. It drips his style, if that's enough of a consolation prize.
  - mikekchar 10y ago
    Thanks! I will definitely check it out.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
contingencies 10y ago
Article meh, subject interesting. Question: Which games do you people feel have replayability on the level of Civilization except roguelikes and original Xcom maybe?
- creshal 10y ago
  • Paradox' grand strategy games (Hearts of Iron 4, Victoria 2, Europa Universalis 4, Crusader Kings 2, Stellaris) – they're Civ (/Master of Orion) on steroids • Dwarf Fortress – not so much a learning curve as a learning cliff the depth of Valles Marineris • Kerbal Space Program – also rather steep learning curve, and needs mods to achieve proper depth, but really deep with them in place • If you haven't seen it already, OpenXcom is a proper remake/port of the original game and just makes it run properly on modern machines (no more DOSbox!), fixes the bugs (no more 80 items limit) and gives it a modding API.
  - contingencies 10y ago
    Thanks. Tried Europa Universalis 4 and Crusader Kings 2 and they don't do it for me unfortunately. Also have tried Dwarf Fortress but the permadeath + weird story humour thing is just too weak an answer for time investment for my psychology, though I admire the creativity in the game. KSP haven't tried yet, hear good things. OpenXcom ... I prefer the original, also tried the remake which I felt was sucky, fast and easy with no strategy only tactics.
    - creshal 10y ago
      OpenXcom is the original, just with a new engine: http://openxcom.org/about/ http://openxcom.org/about/ It plays exactly as the original, just with less technical limitations, like on resolution: http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/429321685576251807/EEACB69071DB7206D45AC6A0CCBAF7A99A26FAB5/ http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/42932168557625...
- Sacho 10y ago
  That's easy to answer with data, not just feeling - http://astats.astats.nl/astats/Steam_Games.php?Sort=8 http://astats.astats.nl/astats/Steam_Games.php?Sort=8 Civilization 5 is not even in the top 20, and that's just steam games.
panic 10y ago
They take over your brain and let you get lost in them. Video games are kind of like musical instruments in that they're an artistic object designed to be used and "gotten lost in". You may or may not consider them art in their own right, but the real point is to play them. We've spent a long time figuring out how to make art with musical instruments, but making art with games is very new. With fewer constraints and the right game design, I think technical performances like speedruns and TASes could develop into something like a true art form.
- egypturnash 10y ago
  If you have a PS4 available, play Bound. It's an avant-garde ballet performance of a video game. A shame the various expressive moves become almost completely useless when you finish the game and try speedrunning it.
- FrozenVoid 10y ago
  Thats a perfect description of what artistic genre it is. Video games are creating their own virtual worlds, where the world itself a piece of interactive art viewed from various player perspectives(the roles they take). "Getting lost in" is actually expirience of immersion(the gameplay flow) and belonging(with social circles/engagement with virtual characters and other players). Good games are meta-narratives which engage players as pieces of the world(background) completing the narratives(as the protagonist of quests/events). Like a grand painting where the main character is you and your virtual "social circle".
- Sylos 10y ago
  I can agree that it's in theory possible that a videogame becomes as expressive as a musical instrument, but in reality I don't see that happening in at least the next 30 to 50 years. A musical instrument is much more direct. Want to play grumpy and loud? You play grumpy and loud. Want to play soft and singingly? You can do that. Every nuance is controlled by you, down to the finest grain. It might sometimes not sound exactly like you want it, but then you can still train to get it right. There's no limits. Videogames on the other hand are much more digital/binary. You can't swing your sword in the exact way that you want to swing it. Instead you usually just either swing it or don't swing it. You might get something akin to a melody, for example in an RPG you build your character's story by choosing to swing your weapon or not (as well as other such things), but a melody by itself, without artistic interpretation, is hardly art in the same sense.
fsloth 10y ago
Where is the need to validate games as art coming from? I don't hear Kasparow insisting chess is art (at least continuously). Since we lack a conclusicve definition of art I can't for the life of me fathom why it would be important to get this label. There is stuff people do on the higher steps of Maslow's hierarchy of needs (i.e. spending time on other things than survival). Some of it is about creative self actualization and self improvement, other stuff is just about enjoying one self. The best non-survival stuff improves the individual and provides epiphanies. The worst kind creates repetitive non-value adding habits which people are compelled to do. Video games are a medium which provide both. Modern video games are packed with industrial art and design. Some provide a playground for creativity. Others provide incredible unforgettable scenes. And others are just slot machines. Is a slot machine art? What's the Venn diagram of the sets 'art' and slot machines like? Which one is truthier statement - "All video games are art" or "some video games are art". I have no answers. All I know is that claiming "video games are/are not art" is silly. Maybe it's about being jealous of the fame and meager stipends artists get. Or creating a defence againsr nasty relatives who conside video games a waste of time?
- frik 10y ago
  Good comment! As you mentioned video games provide both. On the one side there are games that are like slot machines, that attract causual players woth repitive grinding mechanics and be addictive and maybe even harmful for longer consumption. On the other side there are great games that let the player express himself, let him be creative, let him shape the world, let him decide which path he goes. The later category brought us superb games like GTA V, Deus Ex, Minecraft, Mafia, Age of Empires, Flight Simulator, Last of us, etc
  - elbows 10y ago
    I think that the addictive quality is a key component of all games -- perhaps especially the great ones. In a good game the compulsion is balanced with the creative/rewarding aspects to create an positive experience. But even then I often find that the addiction outlives the reward. If I play a great game for an hour, it's engaging and satisfying. Two hours in, I may be tired and frustrated, but the addictive quality keeps me going past the point where I ought to take a break. For me, the experience often ends up a net negative. I play longer than I intend to, neglect other activities, and am left feeling restless and unsatisfied.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ensiferum 10y ago
Oh what a sneaky advert!
partycoder 10y ago
Some games are art some others are closer to artisanry. Games like NBA, FIFA and others follow a known formula and stick to it. They are more akin to artisanry than art.
mandem 10y ago
This is why no one likes nerds.
cLeEOGPw 10y ago
Video games are art. You can't be "Better than art" as art only means "creation with intent", which is so broad even kicking a can down the hill in a certain way can be called art.
rurban 10y ago
Since my name is a bit personally involved into this debate, I have to add some arguments: * Doom was only considered art by some people to prevent the German or British government from censorship. Remember, Wolfenstein is illegal in Germany because of the swastika, and Doom was banned in Germany for over 17 years for glorification of violence to protect minors. I.e. it could be sold and used, but it was illegal to advertise it. Similar to the movie "Starship Troopers" which was an artistic farce, not even a commercial game. * The art aspect of Doom officially came with "Arsdoom". Only this game mod was considered art. By art historians and such.
mwkaufma 10y ago
You "won't apologize for your craft" to who, exactly? You _just_ laundry listed how games are a social, critical, and financial success. Where is this high-culture-snob straw-man?

89 points by phenylene 10y ago

Didn't this die out a week after the game press went wild with it back in 2013? The author of this post couldn't even find anything more recent than Roger Ebert's article.

JanneVee 10y ago
No it didn't die out. It has continued and even floated ideas like that the players that are socially awkward are immature and shouldn't be catered to. It didn't go over well with some people.

skybrian 10y ago

Nice rant, but part of the argument seems to be that games are lucrative and addictive so they're better. That would be true of gambling too. The question is, are they worth spending time on? I do spend a lot of time on certain video games, and I have my doubts. It's sort of like someone saying a book was so compelling that they read it in one sitting. Yeah, okay, so the plot sucked you in, but are you happy afterwards that you did that?

CoolGuySteve 10y ago
There are diminishing returns with regards to time spent, but I do think playing games can make you a better person. Dark Souls teaches patience and consistency, Civilization teaches you to think about exponential growth among many other things. Even DOOM 2016 on Ultra Violence or Nightmare is a completely different game than on the default difficulty level. The trick is recognizing these diminishing returns and separating them from your enjoyment of the experience. It may sound glib, but I find it much more worthwhile than writing comments on Hacker News only to experience the stress of having them nitpicked by pedants trying to score imaginary internet points. We're still doing it, but I don't think it's worth my time. Rare is the comment reply that changes my mind and I bet that goes for most people. I'm just a masochist I guess.
adrianm 10y ago
On a good year, I'll play between one and two games. Not because I wouldn't play more, but because the quantity of great games I wouldn't hesitate to put in the same category as great literature or film is usually zero. Last year was special though. I really can't describe how impactful The Witcher 3 was for me. It really opened my eyes to just how great of an art form video games can be. I don't regret a single moment I played that game and its expansions.
- stuxnet79 10y ago
  I didn't even bother downloading The Witcher 3 on Steam because I knew I'd get sucked in, and would wake up months from now filled with deep regret. But then you are saying the absolute opposite. Why did I have to read this comment ... ? :(
  - creshal 10y ago
    I found the game so horrible I just bit the bullet and bought the books instead. Better story, and no craptastic combat system to struggle with. Wohoo.
  - thenomad 10y ago
    I have recently been comparing The Witcher 3's place in gaming to Casablanca's place in filmmaking. It's that good. It's uneven - some sections are significantly stronger than others - but the strong ones are incredibly so.
  - mentando 10y ago
    Why would you regret it though? Do you fear to invest too much time in it?
    - stuxnet79 10y ago
      Yes! Just started full time work and I have little enough free time as it is. But I've been very stressed the past couple of months so maybe it will be alright to unwind for a couple weeks or so after work. I might download it during the weekend, heard too many good things about Witcher 3.
zzalpha 10y ago
Yeah, okay, so the plot sucked you in, but are you happy afterwards that you did that? Uh, yes. Why wouldn't I be? Should art not be compelling? Enjoyable? Must it necessarily be "challenging" (whatever that means) to be "worthwhile" (whatever that means)? Frankly, the real problem with the author is they give a crap what people think about games as a medium. Art. Not art. Who cares? When Dickens was writing, he was writing to entertain a mass audience. At the time I'm sure there was someone somewhere complaining that since it wasn't written in Latin and thus accessible to folks it wasn't worthwhile. And in the end it just doesn't matter. So enjoy your games or books or comics or whatever captures you and let others do the same. Life is far too short to waste time giving a crap about stuff like this.
- skybrian 10y ago
  Is worrying about crap like this more or less worthwhile than playing video games? Seems like you say it's less worthwhile (and apparently feel strongly about that), but that's a judgment call too. Yes, you can use your free time however you like. It's still a decision everyone needs to make, somehow.
  - zzalpha 10y ago
    Sure, so make that decision. But do it based on what you want and what you value, and let others do the same. Wasting time being concerned if someone else thinks what you're doing or reading or playing is important or valuable is a silly waste of time that could be better spent actually living.
    - skybrian 10y ago
      Totally agree that you shouldn't be much concerned about what other people think. (Especially on the Internet.) I don't agree that thinking about what you want to do with your life is a waste of time. I also don't think you need to decide on this alone - talking to other people about it seems quite okay.
- r_smart 10y ago

danso 10y ago

> We're winning because we offer something better than art. We offer Experience...Stop using the word 'art'. Erase it from your dictionary. It's too weak a word. I want nothing less than to compel you. I am coming to consume all your thoughts, all your attention. I want to absorb you to the point where it threatens your marriage and your livelihood. Not all art is passive though. There has been performance and interactive art that can be pretty engaging. "Sleep No More", for instance. So I think the OP needlessly argues about the popular connotations of the word "art" That said I completely agree with him that games such as "Last of Us" are not the ideal when it comes to video game as art. Just because a game's cutscenes can compete with a feature film in terms of theatrical quality does not mean it's great art as a video game. Nor does lacking cinematic quality disqualify a game from being art. So far my favorite artistic epiphany from a game, not including games that shoot for being "art" more than being a playable game, came from the original "Portal". There's a segment late in the game where you're asked to kill a inanimate object that you've been carrying around for most of the game. You know that it's inanimate. Yet as the narrator taunts you, I was tense the entire way because I was almost convinced it was a living breathing thing, solely because of the length of time I had been interacting with it. I half expected it to scream when I killed it. When nothing happened (I think) I laughed out of sheer relief. It was a feeling much more intense than watching a horror movie, and the only reason it was so intense was because of the interactive role I had -- both in carrying it and then killing it. That's the kind of unique artistic experience that a game can have that's not easily replicated in other mediums, certainly not film or books.

im4w1l 10y ago
You must be very sensitive?
jayjay71 10y ago
I think The Stanley Parable is a much better example of an artistic experience. The creator made another game called The Beginner's Guide which I thought was just as good. Limbo, Papers Please, I Am Bread, Please Don't Touch Anything, are all good examples of games I would also consider art. These games are genuinely different and many of them are considered incredibly enjoyable by most people. If you want something which really is just art and not much of a game, The Cat And The Coup is free on Steam. Frog Fractions 2 is also free and you can find it using Google (you have to play the whole game to understand). For the most part I think gamers and developers are a bit sensitive about their medium, trying to argue it's "art" because it has a positive connotation. I think they should just enjoy it for what it is, as most games are designed to be fun instead of something else. That said, I think VR might try to change this. A friend of mine at Oculus mentioned how it's the very early stages, comparing VR to movies from ~100 years ago. Back then they just filmed plays, as they didn't realize what they could do with the medium. I'm sure VR will have lots of typical blockbusters following generic formulas, but I think indie developers (of which there are more every day) will build some pretty incredibly stuff in the coming years.

mccoyspace 10y ago

Great. Can we artists get our term back, then? Thanks.

idlewords 10y ago
I think the hackers are still using it.
- krisdol 10y ago
  Can hackers get their name back too while we're at it?

zaaakk 10y ago

Awful article. If you've never read a book that could captivate you as much as Doom, then you've probably just never read literature at a serious level. I stopped reading when the author offered clickbait "best games of [year]" lists as evidence of the artistic accomplishment of video games. I'm totally excited by video games as a medium, but I've never seen anything that compared in creative quality to something like Pynchon.

andrewclunn 10y ago
Yeah, the author seems to be taking the modernist approach aesthetically (where the goal of art is to convey an emotion, idea, or state of mind) and suggesting that games can produce states of mind that other forms of entertainment cannot. He seems oblivious to the advantages of other art forms that just don't work as well in a gaming medium.
ralusek 10y ago
The author was an idiot for trying to make it a competition, but so are you if you think you have a point here. The question is always if games even qualify as a medium by which to express art, for which the answer is of course. Once you accept it as a medium for art, there is no question of what is "better." That's just up to you. Some of the best artistic experiences I've had have come from Portal 2, Ori and the Blind Forest, Papers Please, Okami, among many others. I'm not here to argue if Pynchon is better, to me he's not. There's no competition, because it's subjective, and a waste of an argument.
- zaaakk 10y ago
  Yeah, I'm not saying they aren't art. They are, and like I said before, I'm excited about the medium. I just don't think there's anything with the intellectual depth or creative virtuosity as Pynchon-yet. It's a young medium with a high bar of entry.
  - michaelchisari 10y ago
    There's no question whether video games are art. We need to move past that false dilemma. The question is whether individual video games qualify as quality or "good" art. Unfortunately, I think the answer is generally a "no". But the potential is certainly there. It's a very new medium.

wellpast 10y ago

> I love literature and theatre. I love great movies. Yet, I can't remember any work of art, no matter how good, that consumed and drained me as much as the Cyberdemon in DOOM. But unlike many encounters with art, DOOM never changed my worldview.

sskates 10y ago
I remember one of the most mind blowing moments for me was the big reveal halfway through Knights of the Old Republic. Dunno if it counts as "changing my worldview" but it was the same feeling I got after watching The Matrix- I didn't know I could be so impacted by art.
- creshal 10y ago
  KotoR's storytelling is on a much different level than DOOM's, however. DOOM only has an excuse plot to make you go and rip out demon intestines, which is the main feature of the game. With KotoR, the story is.
SmellyGeekBoy 10y ago
> But unlike many encounters with art, DOOM never changed my worldview. Perhaps not, but the political narrative of the Deus Ex series has certainly got me thinking on issues I hadn't considered before.
thenomad 10y ago
I've heard story after story of people finding games changed how they interacted with the world - often teaching them patience, perseverance, and optimism about eventual outcome. It's a prevalent theme amongst Dark Souls players in particular.
- J5892 10y ago
  I'm not sure I want to be around someone whose worldview was molded by Dark Souls.

dschiptsov 10y ago

World and behavior modeling - the AI parts of the craft, are definitely a next level of an Art - the abilities we used attribute to our primitive gods.

jaywunder 10y ago

I don't see why the author feels the need for something to be either immersive or art – or whatever dichotomy he's trying to draw here. There are plenty of paintings and books and music that transport people. There are plenty of video games that don't. Media is media, no matter what form. The quality of the media will discern whether the media is good or not, the form of the media doesn't matter.

bananaoomarang 10y ago

This argument always seems like a straw man to me. 'Art' is a broad and loosely (looser and looser) defined term, there is no reason video games can or can't be a part of that for you. Many people seem to constantly yearn to define some sort of video game literary canon. To earn that sort of platform takes many more years and a society more willing to accept video games as valid emotional experiences and/or effective question posers. They are not ideal for either, they are ideal for producing addictive feedback loops. The author here is keen to put these loops under the same banner as Kubrick or Tolstoy, presumably to justify his investment to himself as much as anyone else. Loving Doom is nothing to be ashamed of; you can love Tarkovsky films too.

mikekchar 10y ago

One day I want to write a game that is as powerful for me as Tonari no Totoro. It's a silly kids movie, but it simply drips Japan. I can't even put into words how complete that movie is. From the unspoken backdrop of the story, to the lush scenery, to the sounds of nature, to the character design... Virtually every frame has something to offer the viewer. To me it is a historical artifact. Just like the author mentions of games, it transports my life to that of a child in post war Japan. I have not played any game that gives an experience like that. I am actually quite a big fan of fantasy, science fiction and fiction in general, but this movie blows me away by how real it is (despite containing a bus made out of a cat). I think video games have a lot of potential, but generally lack focus. In fact the long running nature of games and ability to explore everything works against them. The more freedom you give the user, the harder it is to focus them. They push the boundaries and find that there is nothing behind them. Alternatively, they are locked into a perspective unnaturally. Video games are a great medium for art, but I think there is still a lot of virgin territory to explore.

wishinghand 10y ago
It's not "My Neighbor Totoro" but "Ni no Kuni" is a very Miyazaki-esque video game. It drips his style, if that's enough of a consolation prize.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  Thanks! I will definitely check it out.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

contingencies 10y ago

Article meh, subject interesting. Question: Which games do you people feel have replayability on the level of Civilization except roguelikes and original Xcom maybe?

creshal 10y ago
• Paradox' grand strategy games (Hearts of Iron 4, Victoria 2, Europa Universalis 4, Crusader Kings 2, Stellaris) – they're Civ (/Master of Orion) on steroids • Dwarf Fortress – not so much a learning curve as a learning cliff the depth of Valles Marineris • Kerbal Space Program – also rather steep learning curve, and needs mods to achieve proper depth, but really deep with them in place • If you haven't seen it already, OpenXcom is a proper remake/port of the original game and just makes it run properly on modern machines (no more DOSbox!), fixes the bugs (no more 80 items limit) and gives it a modding API.
- contingencies 10y ago
  Thanks. Tried Europa Universalis 4 and Crusader Kings 2 and they don't do it for me unfortunately. Also have tried Dwarf Fortress but the permadeath + weird story humour thing is just too weak an answer for time investment for my psychology, though I admire the creativity in the game. KSP haven't tried yet, hear good things. OpenXcom ... I prefer the original, also tried the remake which I felt was sucky, fast and easy with no strategy only tactics.
  - creshal 10y ago
    OpenXcom is the original, just with a new engine: http://openxcom.org/about/ http://openxcom.org/about/ It plays exactly as the original, just with less technical limitations, like on resolution: http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/429321685576251807/EEACB69071DB7206D45AC6A0CCBAF7A99A26FAB5/ http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/42932168557625...
Sacho 10y ago
That's easy to answer with data, not just feeling - http://astats.astats.nl/astats/Steam_Games.php?Sort=8 http://astats.astats.nl/astats/Steam_Games.php?Sort=8 Civilization 5 is not even in the top 20, and that's just steam games.

panic 10y ago

They take over your brain and let you get lost in them. Video games are kind of like musical instruments in that they're an artistic object designed to be used and "gotten lost in". You may or may not consider them art in their own right, but the real point is to play them. We've spent a long time figuring out how to make art with musical instruments, but making art with games is very new. With fewer constraints and the right game design, I think technical performances like speedruns and TASes could develop into something like a true art form.

egypturnash 10y ago
If you have a PS4 available, play Bound. It's an avant-garde ballet performance of a video game. A shame the various expressive moves become almost completely useless when you finish the game and try speedrunning it.
FrozenVoid 10y ago
Thats a perfect description of what artistic genre it is. Video games are creating their own virtual worlds, where the world itself a piece of interactive art viewed from various player perspectives(the roles they take). "Getting lost in" is actually expirience of immersion(the gameplay flow) and belonging(with social circles/engagement with virtual characters and other players). Good games are meta-narratives which engage players as pieces of the world(background) completing the narratives(as the protagonist of quests/events). Like a grand painting where the main character is you and your virtual "social circle".
Sylos 10y ago
I can agree that it's in theory possible that a videogame becomes as expressive as a musical instrument, but in reality I don't see that happening in at least the next 30 to 50 years. A musical instrument is much more direct. Want to play grumpy and loud? You play grumpy and loud. Want to play soft and singingly? You can do that. Every nuance is controlled by you, down to the finest grain. It might sometimes not sound exactly like you want it, but then you can still train to get it right. There's no limits. Videogames on the other hand are much more digital/binary. You can't swing your sword in the exact way that you want to swing it. Instead you usually just either swing it or don't swing it. You might get something akin to a melody, for example in an RPG you build your character's story by choosing to swing your weapon or not (as well as other such things), but a melody by itself, without artistic interpretation, is hardly art in the same sense.

fsloth 10y ago

Where is the need to validate games as art coming from? I don't hear Kasparow insisting chess is art (at least continuously). Since we lack a conclusicve definition of art I can't for the life of me fathom why it would be important to get this label. There is stuff people do on the higher steps of Maslow's hierarchy of needs (i.e. spending time on other things than survival). Some of it is about creative self actualization and self improvement, other stuff is just about enjoying one self. The best non-survival stuff improves the individual and provides epiphanies. The worst kind creates repetitive non-value adding habits which people are compelled to do. Video games are a medium which provide both. Modern video games are packed with industrial art and design. Some provide a playground for creativity. Others provide incredible unforgettable scenes. And others are just slot machines. Is a slot machine art? What's the Venn diagram of the sets 'art' and slot machines like? Which one is truthier statement - "All video games are art" or "some video games are art". I have no answers. All I know is that claiming "video games are/are not art" is silly. Maybe it's about being jealous of the fame and meager stipends artists get. Or creating a defence againsr nasty relatives who conside video games a waste of time?

frik 10y ago
Good comment! As you mentioned video games provide both. On the one side there are games that are like slot machines, that attract causual players woth repitive grinding mechanics and be addictive and maybe even harmful for longer consumption. On the other side there are great games that let the player express himself, let him be creative, let him shape the world, let him decide which path he goes. The later category brought us superb games like GTA V, Deus Ex, Minecraft, Mafia, Age of Empires, Flight Simulator, Last of us, etc
- elbows 10y ago
  I think that the addictive quality is a key component of all games -- perhaps especially the great ones. In a good game the compulsion is balanced with the creative/rewarding aspects to create an positive experience. But even then I often find that the addiction outlives the reward. If I play a great game for an hour, it's engaging and satisfying. Two hours in, I may be tired and frustrated, but the addictive quality keeps me going past the point where I ought to take a break. For me, the experience often ends up a net negative. I play longer than I intend to, neglect other activities, and am left feeling restless and unsatisfied.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ensiferum 10y ago

Oh what a sneaky advert!

partycoder 10y ago

Some games are art some others are closer to artisanry. Games like NBA, FIFA and others follow a known formula and stick to it. They are more akin to artisanry than art.

mandem 10y ago

This is why no one likes nerds.

cLeEOGPw 10y ago

Video games are art. You can't be "Better than art" as art only means "creation with intent", which is so broad even kicking a can down the hill in a certain way can be called art.

rurban 10y ago

Since my name is a bit personally involved into this debate, I have to add some arguments: * Doom was only considered art by some people to prevent the German or British government from censorship. Remember, Wolfenstein is illegal in Germany because of the swastika, and Doom was banned in Germany for over 17 years for glorification of violence to protect minors. I.e. it could be sold and used, but it was illegal to advertise it. Similar to the movie "Starship Troopers" which was an artistic farce, not even a commercial game. * The art aspect of Doom officially came with "Arsdoom". Only this game mod was considered art. By art historians and such.

mwkaufma 10y ago

You "won't apologize for your craft" to who, exactly? You _just_ laundry listed how games are a social, critical, and financial success. Where is this high-culture-snob straw-man?