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The use of DCP seems to be limited to very high resolution releases. The DCP is just a digital print (what movie theaters play for digital releases instead of

by _pius 10y ago

The use of DCP seems to be limited to very high resolution releases. The DCP is just a digital print (what movie theaters play for digital releases instead of the reels of film that go with analog releases). It's not really about resolution per se, it's just a term for the whole package that the theater gets.

e12e 10y ago
To add to this - a typical cinema release is a pretty big file - frame-by-frame encoded as jpg2000 in 4k. Often shipped on hard drives, or downloaded via dedicated fiber lines. They key material is distributed separately, and allows for fine-grained control of play back (eg time of day - to the point that if a screening is sufficiently delayed, it may sometimes have to be cancelled if a new key can't be acquired in time...). This all works due to proprietary hardware - the modifications to the 4k cinema projectors that enable decryption almost at the lens/imaging chip can cost as much as the projector itself, doubling the price of the projector (last I heard from around 15k to 30k USD). With a more sane key distribution (no master keys in equipment, like with dvds) - I don't believe DCP is likely to be cracked in the same sense CSS was: probably the more likely scenario is that some insider leak some of the distributors private keys which would allow certain releases to be cracked - but would likely also trigger key roll over. Also worth nothing that the DCP format is pretty nice, has optional encryption - and you can make your own. With the right contacts you can view your own footage on on a cinema screen :-) See eg: http://www.knuterikevensen.com/?p=2559 http://www.knuterikevensen.com/?p=2559
- ddt_Osprey 10y ago
  a typical cinema release is a pretty big file - frame-by-frame encoded as jpg2000 in 4k. Often shipped on hard drives, or downloaded via dedicated fiber lines. This is not a show stopper. All you need is one unlocked copy to drop in the open, and then everyone can work on it, and get it packed up in a more reasonable format. This all works due to proprietary hardware - the modifications to the 4k cinema projectors that enable decryption almost at the lens/imaging chip can cost as much as the projector itself, doubling the price of the projector (last I heard from around 15k to 30k USD). So, yeah, that's great, but the only level of piracy that could deter is the pixel-perfect variety. A motivated individual with a comparable budget could probably optically extract a high quality duplicate with an expensive digital video camera (and perhaps even a beam splitter), and pull signal from the speaker transducers with professional audio recording equipment. There'd be no real need to tamper with proprietary hardware or intrude on the chasis of the projector. With reasonable equipment, it's likely that a person could reproduce a re-recording of a movie that is very-nearly indistinguishable from the factory source, perhaps except for negligible artifacts that might irritate only the holiest of true believers.
  - ekianjo 10y ago
    > a typical cinema release is a pretty big file - frame-by-frame encoded as jpg2000 in 4k In a way it's shocking that huge cinema screens ONLY project 4k. When we had film instead of digital projectors, we actually had a much higher resolution on screen. It's a shame we replaced it with an inferior technology.
    - edent 10y ago
      I'm not convinced. If you happen to see a fresh print, with no scratches, dirt, skipped sprockets, or speed issues then - yes - it is theoretically marginally better than a digital print. Similarly, a highly priced vinyl player might have slightly better sound quality than a cheap CD player. But for most people, digital Cinema and CDs represent a vastly superior experience.
      - ekianjo 10y ago
        Wait. Film is not just better for resolution, it has much better dynamic range and color depth than digital (digital is coming close, but still not there yet). It's not because a technology is newer that it is necessarily better. CRT still holds some advantages over LCDs, Paper still holds advantages over e-ink, and so on. Of course Digital photography wins by a large amount for cost and convenience, but that's not the whole picture.
    - ars 10y ago
      Film has a lot of noise. The resolution is not as high as you are imagining. I've seen both, digital is better.
      - 4ad 10y ago
        > Film has a lot of noise. Film has grain, which is a type of non-chroma signal-dependent noise that is not unpleasant like chromatic signal-independent sensor noise or shot noise you get digitally in photography (not in movies, they have good lighting there). In fact, grain is actually useful, as it's aesthetically pleasing in small amounts, can increase apparent sharpness. In fact it's so useful digital creations fake back in post-production a small amount of grain. > The resolution is not as high as you are imagining. The resolution of 4k projection is not as high as you are imagining either. It's just 4096x2160 lines (often less, depending on aspect ratio) or 8.8 megapixels. In the best circumstances you can get 25Mpix of useful data from a 35mm frame shot on low grain stocks like 5203. In the worst circumstances you get 10Mpix. This is 35mm, The Hateful Eight was shot on 65mm stock, which has a camera frame surface are of 3.44 times the camera surface of 35mm film. Either way, the resolution of 4k digital cinema is fine, I miss more the old contrast and gamut.
- alex1 10y ago
  > probably the more likely scenario is that some insider leak some of the distributors private keys which would allow certain releases to be cracked - but would likely also trigger key roll over. It could also be the case that someone leaked the plaintext symmetric key(s) for this specific movie's DCP. If someone gained access to private/secret keys on a compromised DCP player somewhere, it'd be smarter to leak symmetric keys for individual movies to avoid detection.
- rado 10y ago
  And they still look bad. smh
- durakot 10y ago
  Pretty much any digital cinema projection suite will be able to play your run of the mill quicktime/h264 file, so DCP is hardly a requirement to watch cat videos on a cinema screen. DCP can be a pain in the ass for indie filmmakers, though. These days it's easy to generate a DCP from footage, but basically impossible to test it without actually putting it through a DCP projector in a cinema. This is crazy.
  - i336_ 10y ago
    With no familiarity of the subject, I see a lot of DCP player programs. What do you mean by "test it"?
    - e12e 10y ago
      I'm not sure what parent means, but I've projected quite a few DCP films made by individuals / beginners at movie festivals - hand often the technical quality is heart-breakingly bad: the colour, resolution, encoding/compression and sometimes frame rate can be off. Most of these are fixable if you know what you are doing. But it takes a lot of experience to imagine what a frame that looks great on a ~24 inch monitor will look like when projected in a theater. I would strongly recommend that anyone dreaming to screen something in cinemas make a deal with their local cinema in order to do test screenings - to check picture and sound. Just like with anything else, there's no substitute for testing under "real" conditions. Note that most(?) cinema setups will happily take some form of digital audio/video signal and run it through dolby surround and project it - so you don't have to start testing with a DCP file. But you certainly should test that in a cinema before distribution. Also note that the "player" part of a fixed installation might have quirks/bugs that software that's more easily updated might work around (think mplayer vs a cheap old DVD player).
      - i336_ 10y ago
        TIL, thanks for the clarification and information. Definitely filed away.
- 4ad 10y ago
  > last I heard from around 15k to 30k USD Where can I buy one? Last I heard, smallest 4k projectors start at $400k.
  - dagw 10y ago
    That was a long time ago. You can get consumer 4k projectors for under $10k. Here's one for example: https://amzn.com/B00SKK70VO https://amzn.com/B00SKK70VO
    - 4ad 10y ago
      But this can't play DCP. Also the gamut is Rec. 709, instead of DCI-P3.
      - dagw 10y ago
        Still, a 'low-end' Barco good enough for smaller cinemas is definitely less than $100k these days.
        4ad 10y ago
        Times are changing. I am very happy for these new developments. If you have the right friends, and hang out with the right group of people, you can get sometimes unencrypted material, just like in the old days you could get film reels. But a 35mm film projector was relatively affordable, this new digital stuff is still crazy expensive.
        i336_ 10y ago
        Huh, very interesting. (And mildly obvious.) I'm curious what I should be keeping an eye out for, what sorts of people would be the most interesting to chase, etc, to maximize my chances of causing this opportunity to present itself at some point in the future. (I'm not particularly social right now.)
  - e12e 10y ago
- mountaineer22 10y ago
  What do you use to film in 4K so that you can later view your own footage on a cinema screen? What does that workflow look like?
  - e12e 10y ago
    Anything that films in 4k+, post production, and then "print" to DCP. If you make 3d/digital film you could render to 4k single frames and use that for your DCP (although for a professional workflow you would probably want to follow regular workflow, with post production, sound and end up with one or two "print" stages - depending if your toolkit is any good for "printing" to DCP. Afaik Adobe premier is still quite useless for making DCPs, you're better off rendering to single frames and building the DCP with a dedicated tool).
    - mountaineer22 10y ago
      Any recommendations for dedicated DCP tooling?

by _pius 10y ago

e12e 10y ago

To add to this - a typical cinema release is a pretty big file - frame-by-frame encoded as jpg2000 in 4k. Often shipped on hard drives, or downloaded via dedicated fiber lines. They key material is distributed separately, and allows for fine-grained control of play back (eg time of day - to the point that if a screening is sufficiently delayed, it may sometimes have to be cancelled if a new key can't be acquired in time...). This all works due to proprietary hardware - the modifications to the 4k cinema projectors that enable decryption almost at the lens/imaging chip can cost as much as the projector itself, doubling the price of the projector (last I heard from around 15k to 30k USD). With a more sane key distribution (no master keys in equipment, like with dvds) - I don't believe DCP is likely to be cracked in the same sense CSS was: probably the more likely scenario is that some insider leak some of the distributors private keys which would allow certain releases to be cracked - but would likely also trigger key roll over. Also worth nothing that the DCP format is pretty nice, has optional encryption - and you can make your own. With the right contacts you can view your own footage on on a cinema screen :-) See eg: http://www.knuterikevensen.com/?p=2559 http://www.knuterikevensen.com/?p=2559

ddt_Osprey 10y ago
a typical cinema release is a pretty big file - frame-by-frame encoded as jpg2000 in 4k. Often shipped on hard drives, or downloaded via dedicated fiber lines. This is not a show stopper. All you need is one unlocked copy to drop in the open, and then everyone can work on it, and get it packed up in a more reasonable format. This all works due to proprietary hardware - the modifications to the 4k cinema projectors that enable decryption almost at the lens/imaging chip can cost as much as the projector itself, doubling the price of the projector (last I heard from around 15k to 30k USD). So, yeah, that's great, but the only level of piracy that could deter is the pixel-perfect variety. A motivated individual with a comparable budget could probably optically extract a high quality duplicate with an expensive digital video camera (and perhaps even a beam splitter), and pull signal from the speaker transducers with professional audio recording equipment. There'd be no real need to tamper with proprietary hardware or intrude on the chasis of the projector. With reasonable equipment, it's likely that a person could reproduce a re-recording of a movie that is very-nearly indistinguishable from the factory source, perhaps except for negligible artifacts that might irritate only the holiest of true believers.
- ekianjo 10y ago
  > a typical cinema release is a pretty big file - frame-by-frame encoded as jpg2000 in 4k In a way it's shocking that huge cinema screens ONLY project 4k. When we had film instead of digital projectors, we actually had a much higher resolution on screen. It's a shame we replaced it with an inferior technology.
  - edent 10y ago
    I'm not convinced. If you happen to see a fresh print, with no scratches, dirt, skipped sprockets, or speed issues then - yes - it is theoretically marginally better than a digital print. Similarly, a highly priced vinyl player might have slightly better sound quality than a cheap CD player. But for most people, digital Cinema and CDs represent a vastly superior experience.
    - ekianjo 10y ago
      Wait. Film is not just better for resolution, it has much better dynamic range and color depth than digital (digital is coming close, but still not there yet). It's not because a technology is newer that it is necessarily better. CRT still holds some advantages over LCDs, Paper still holds advantages over e-ink, and so on. Of course Digital photography wins by a large amount for cost and convenience, but that's not the whole picture.
  - ars 10y ago
    Film has a lot of noise. The resolution is not as high as you are imagining. I've seen both, digital is better.
    - 4ad 10y ago
      > Film has a lot of noise. Film has grain, which is a type of non-chroma signal-dependent noise that is not unpleasant like chromatic signal-independent sensor noise or shot noise you get digitally in photography (not in movies, they have good lighting there). In fact, grain is actually useful, as it's aesthetically pleasing in small amounts, can increase apparent sharpness. In fact it's so useful digital creations fake back in post-production a small amount of grain. > The resolution is not as high as you are imagining. The resolution of 4k projection is not as high as you are imagining either. It's just 4096x2160 lines (often less, depending on aspect ratio) or 8.8 megapixels. In the best circumstances you can get 25Mpix of useful data from a 35mm frame shot on low grain stocks like 5203. In the worst circumstances you get 10Mpix. This is 35mm, The Hateful Eight was shot on 65mm stock, which has a camera frame surface are of 3.44 times the camera surface of 35mm film. Either way, the resolution of 4k digital cinema is fine, I miss more the old contrast and gamut.
alex1 10y ago
> probably the more likely scenario is that some insider leak some of the distributors private keys which would allow certain releases to be cracked - but would likely also trigger key roll over. It could also be the case that someone leaked the plaintext symmetric key(s) for this specific movie's DCP. If someone gained access to private/secret keys on a compromised DCP player somewhere, it'd be smarter to leak symmetric keys for individual movies to avoid detection.
rado 10y ago
And they still look bad. smh
durakot 10y ago
Pretty much any digital cinema projection suite will be able to play your run of the mill quicktime/h264 file, so DCP is hardly a requirement to watch cat videos on a cinema screen. DCP can be a pain in the ass for indie filmmakers, though. These days it's easy to generate a DCP from footage, but basically impossible to test it without actually putting it through a DCP projector in a cinema. This is crazy.
- i336_ 10y ago
  With no familiarity of the subject, I see a lot of DCP player programs. What do you mean by "test it"?
  - e12e 10y ago
    I'm not sure what parent means, but I've projected quite a few DCP films made by individuals / beginners at movie festivals - hand often the technical quality is heart-breakingly bad: the colour, resolution, encoding/compression and sometimes frame rate can be off. Most of these are fixable if you know what you are doing. But it takes a lot of experience to imagine what a frame that looks great on a ~24 inch monitor will look like when projected in a theater. I would strongly recommend that anyone dreaming to screen something in cinemas make a deal with their local cinema in order to do test screenings - to check picture and sound. Just like with anything else, there's no substitute for testing under "real" conditions. Note that most(?) cinema setups will happily take some form of digital audio/video signal and run it through dolby surround and project it - so you don't have to start testing with a DCP file. But you certainly should test that in a cinema before distribution. Also note that the "player" part of a fixed installation might have quirks/bugs that software that's more easily updated might work around (think mplayer vs a cheap old DVD player).
    - i336_ 10y ago
      TIL, thanks for the clarification and information. Definitely filed away.
4ad 10y ago
> last I heard from around 15k to 30k USD Where can I buy one? Last I heard, smallest 4k projectors start at $400k.
- dagw 10y ago
  That was a long time ago. You can get consumer 4k projectors for under $10k. Here's one for example: https://amzn.com/B00SKK70VO https://amzn.com/B00SKK70VO
  - 4ad 10y ago
    But this can't play DCP. Also the gamut is Rec. 709, instead of DCI-P3.
    - dagw 10y ago
      Still, a 'low-end' Barco good enough for smaller cinemas is definitely less than $100k these days.
      - 4ad 10y ago
        Times are changing. I am very happy for these new developments. If you have the right friends, and hang out with the right group of people, you can get sometimes unencrypted material, just like in the old days you could get film reels. But a 35mm film projector was relatively affordable, this new digital stuff is still crazy expensive.
        i336_ 10y ago
        Huh, very interesting. (And mildly obvious.) I'm curious what I should be keeping an eye out for, what sorts of people would be the most interesting to chase, etc, to maximize my chances of causing this opportunity to present itself at some point in the future. (I'm not particularly social right now.)
- e12e 10y ago
mountaineer22 10y ago
What do you use to film in 4K so that you can later view your own footage on a cinema screen? What does that workflow look like?
- e12e 10y ago
  Anything that films in 4k+, post production, and then "print" to DCP. If you make 3d/digital film you could render to 4k single frames and use that for your DCP (although for a professional workflow you would probably want to follow regular workflow, with post production, sound and end up with one or two "print" stages - depending if your toolkit is any good for "printing" to DCP. Afaik Adobe premier is still quite useless for making DCPs, you're better off rendering to single frames and building the DCP with a dedicated tool).
  - mountaineer22 10y ago
    Any recommendations for dedicated DCP tooling?