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The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these s

The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but because they have already sunk huge costs into the endeavor, will continue incurring more costs in spite of the writing on the wall. The economics means that these schools are unsustainable. However, some people find success through these schools. How can we continue to serve these people? Perhaps we could avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater by creating more community colleges, allowing more people to enroll in affordable community colleges, complete milestones at their own pace, while providing more direct subsidies of tuition for the truly needy. I agree that we would benefit from more German-style apprenticeship programs as well. For all of their worker protections, they still have incredibly low youth unemployment.

pgt 10y ago
Perhaps apprenticeship programs as are common in Germany, which are more focused on practical skills development than theoretical learning?
- at-fates-hands 10y ago
  They're actually quite a few apprenticeship programs here in the states. Learning a skilled trade just isn't sexy for a lot of kids and for some reason are looked down upon. Even though you can get a welding apprenticeship and be earning 70-80K right out of the gate. High schools here are starting to encourage kids to take a more non-traditional route to a career and letting kids know there are other avenues other than 4 year colleges - including more vocational training, apprenticeships and other options like code camps.
  - rubidium 10y ago
    I'm not disagreeing with your encouragement towards the skilled trades, but please do be realistic with your information. Median salary is $40K. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Welder/Hourly_Rate http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Welder/Hourly_Rate
    - at-fates-hands 10y ago
      And with most places paying overtime, it's easy to push that up to the 70-80K range I was talking about. I should've been clearer in stating that.
      - mywittyname 10y ago
        http://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers-and-brazers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers-... The median pay for a welder is $38,000 per year. Only 10% earn more than $60,000 a year. In other words, earning $70-80k "out of the gate" as you say, is rare. A person earning a median hourly income would need to work 3200 hours a year to make $70,000 (assuming 1.5x wage for all hours over 2000).
        tunap 10y ago
        Roughnecks make $60-$80k in the oil industry. No idea what a welder makes, but I'm thinking it being a specialized skill, probably more. They often do work 70 hour weeks, as well. Not much else to do but work, drink or fight when far from home in a camp full of men. Throw "underwater" in front of welder and you're looking at a couple factors of 6 digits.
Yhippa 10y ago
What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.
- scarface74 10y ago
  I see more of a case against going to a four year college for a lot of people instead of just going to a much cheaper 2 year college for the first two years and transferring to get a 4 year degree. Most state four year colleges have a transfer program.
- ssharp 10y ago
  When I was an undergrad, many years ago in my home state of Ohio, community colleges were definitely looked down on as being "lesser" than four-year universities, even if the universities were offering two-year Associates programs. However, the State of Ohio overhauled how it helps funds state universities, where funds are allocated based on graduation rather than enrollment. As a result, state universities have started shifting more and more students to take low level courses at whatever community college, or colleges, they partner with. In particular, students with higher drop-out risk also get sent over to the community college. I think that, along with many of the State's public universities slashing tuition on entry-level courses have helped improve the cost burden of higher education, particularly for those high-risk groups where they only take a few classes and fail to complete the program.
- thearn4 10y ago
  I've always been a huge fan of community colleges. Partly because I came up through one.
- beachstartup 10y ago
  > What's the case against community colleges historically? nothing, but they don't have slick advertising and promise you a $75k/year job, or aggressively recruit you by calling you non-stop and using manipulative pressure tactics like you're buying a $50,000 cell phone plan at a mall kiosk.
cookiecaper 10y ago
My experience is that there are plenty of community colleges, but people don't want to go to them because they feel they're stigmatized. I have to admit that while I'm obviously against exploitative schemes, the shutdown of something that may have been a viable alternative to a traditional university hurts a little. Small trade schools, which ITT presented itself as even if it was in reality just a scam, are much better learning environments than large universities for most of the kind of stuff that hackers do. I'm worried there will be a small cultural backlash against people without traditional educations on the heels of this shutdown. Since traditional university education is mostly just a massive, deeply-ingrained scam itself, this is disappointing.
liveoneggs 10y ago
How is this different from the huge numbers of people who drop out of traditional universities?
nommm-nommm 10y ago
Honestly, even though this is harsh, I think your "the reality" description of for profit colleges applies to community colleges as well. Graduation rates at community college are very low (like 35%ish) and more than half of community college students need to take (and pay for) remedial classes before they even start earning credit. They are comparatively affordable though and you aren't likely to go into crushing debt to go to community college, though it's possible, my uncle did it. There was one of the "best" community colleges in the country in my hometown. Best ranked by, I have no idea, people in town just talked about how it's ranked high nationally. I took a few classes there the summers I spent in my hometown during my college years to speed up my university degree. The quality of classes and education was seriously lacking in the classes I took. They were not college level in my opinion (even though my credits had no problem transferring). Grades were posted online without names attached and it was shocking to me that half the class was struggling to pass such a basic class. These C community college students are not going to make it in a 4 year university if that's what they are aiming for. My friend did get her LPN there though and seems like a good nurse so maybe it was ok for more "trade" type degrees. Community college is not the answer to the kids flunking out of ITT tech. They won't do better in community college, they will just have comparatively less debt. Getting more kids in community college is certainly not the answer. More subsidies is even more not the answer.
- pessimizer 10y ago
  > Community college is not the answer to the kids flunking out of ITT tech. Who's trying to solve the problem of kids flunking out of ITT Tech? One of the problems with ITT Tech is that you can't flunk out of it. > They won't do better in community college, they will just have comparatively less debt. You seem to think that there's a problem with people doing badly at ITT Tech. The problem is that ITT Tech is bad, not that people are doing badly there. That people are saddled with a worthless qualification and are in crushing debt from the process of getting it is the problem. > Getting more kids in community college is certainly not the answer. To the question that nobody asked? No. To people ending up in horrible debt with a worthless credential? Of course it is. It would take you 4-5 years in community college to generate the debt that you can in a semester of one of these fake schools. Community colleges are fine. Some are great. I went from community college to university, and a ton of other people did with me, a few to Northwestern and the University of Chicago (I just went to UIC.) I'm sorry you didn't like yours, but you shouldn't judge all Chinese restaurants because the meal you had at the one in your hometown was too salty. > More subsidies is even more not the answer. To what question?
mathattack 10y ago
Your last paragraph is spot on. Community Colleges (supported by MOOCs) and apprenticeship and trade school programs are the way to go. 3rd tier colleges with Ivy League prices aren't, and are only done based on misleading financial aid. I've seen a lot of resumes of people from for-profit schools. The graduates fall in 2 camps: Those who regret the decision, and those who don't realize how badly they were scammed. 90% of the time I see a title attached to someone's name ("Jane Smith, Phd" or "John Doe, MBA") it's from one of these overpriced degree factories, and it's a terribly negative signal.
droopybuns 10y ago
It feels like non "for-profit" schools also suffer from the same reality, now that the prices are commonly hovering around 40K per year at smaller liberal arts schools.
tptacek 10y ago
That's not the dream. The dream is to get access to the billions of dollars the Federal Government spends to finance college degrees. Tuition costs at for-profit schools track neither those companies inputs nor the value they actually provide to the market. The distinction is important. It is likely --- overwhelmingly likely, I think --- that there are programs with "the dream" you site that will work well. They just won't work like government-subsidized for-profit colleges.

pgt 10y ago

Perhaps apprenticeship programs as are common in Germany, which are more focused on practical skills development than theoretical learning?

at-fates-hands 10y ago
They're actually quite a few apprenticeship programs here in the states. Learning a skilled trade just isn't sexy for a lot of kids and for some reason are looked down upon. Even though you can get a welding apprenticeship and be earning 70-80K right out of the gate. High schools here are starting to encourage kids to take a more non-traditional route to a career and letting kids know there are other avenues other than 4 year colleges - including more vocational training, apprenticeships and other options like code camps.
- rubidium 10y ago
  I'm not disagreeing with your encouragement towards the skilled trades, but please do be realistic with your information. Median salary is $40K. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Welder/Hourly_Rate http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Welder/Hourly_Rate
  - at-fates-hands 10y ago
    And with most places paying overtime, it's easy to push that up to the 70-80K range I was talking about. I should've been clearer in stating that.
    - mywittyname 10y ago
      http://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers-and-brazers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers-... The median pay for a welder is $38,000 per year. Only 10% earn more than $60,000 a year. In other words, earning $70-80k "out of the gate" as you say, is rare. A person earning a median hourly income would need to work 3200 hours a year to make $70,000 (assuming 1.5x wage for all hours over 2000).
      - tunap 10y ago
        Roughnecks make $60-$80k in the oil industry. No idea what a welder makes, but I'm thinking it being a specialized skill, probably more. They often do work 70 hour weeks, as well. Not much else to do but work, drink or fight when far from home in a camp full of men. Throw "underwater" in front of welder and you're looking at a couple factors of 6 digits.

Yhippa 10y ago

What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.

scarface74 10y ago
I see more of a case against going to a four year college for a lot of people instead of just going to a much cheaper 2 year college for the first two years and transferring to get a 4 year degree. Most state four year colleges have a transfer program.
ssharp 10y ago
When I was an undergrad, many years ago in my home state of Ohio, community colleges were definitely looked down on as being "lesser" than four-year universities, even if the universities were offering two-year Associates programs. However, the State of Ohio overhauled how it helps funds state universities, where funds are allocated based on graduation rather than enrollment. As a result, state universities have started shifting more and more students to take low level courses at whatever community college, or colleges, they partner with. In particular, students with higher drop-out risk also get sent over to the community college. I think that, along with many of the State's public universities slashing tuition on entry-level courses have helped improve the cost burden of higher education, particularly for those high-risk groups where they only take a few classes and fail to complete the program.
thearn4 10y ago
I've always been a huge fan of community colleges. Partly because I came up through one.
beachstartup 10y ago
> What's the case against community colleges historically? nothing, but they don't have slick advertising and promise you a $75k/year job, or aggressively recruit you by calling you non-stop and using manipulative pressure tactics like you're buying a $50,000 cell phone plan at a mall kiosk.

cookiecaper 10y ago

My experience is that there are plenty of community colleges, but people don't want to go to them because they feel they're stigmatized. I have to admit that while I'm obviously against exploitative schemes, the shutdown of something that may have been a viable alternative to a traditional university hurts a little. Small trade schools, which ITT presented itself as even if it was in reality just a scam, are much better learning environments than large universities for most of the kind of stuff that hackers do. I'm worried there will be a small cultural backlash against people without traditional educations on the heels of this shutdown. Since traditional university education is mostly just a massive, deeply-ingrained scam itself, this is disappointing.

liveoneggs 10y ago

How is this different from the huge numbers of people who drop out of traditional universities?

nommm-nommm 10y ago

Honestly, even though this is harsh, I think your "the reality" description of for profit colleges applies to community colleges as well. Graduation rates at community college are very low (like 35%ish) and more than half of community college students need to take (and pay for) remedial classes before they even start earning credit. They are comparatively affordable though and you aren't likely to go into crushing debt to go to community college, though it's possible, my uncle did it. There was one of the "best" community colleges in the country in my hometown. Best ranked by, I have no idea, people in town just talked about how it's ranked high nationally. I took a few classes there the summers I spent in my hometown during my college years to speed up my university degree. The quality of classes and education was seriously lacking in the classes I took. They were not college level in my opinion (even though my credits had no problem transferring). Grades were posted online without names attached and it was shocking to me that half the class was struggling to pass such a basic class. These C community college students are not going to make it in a 4 year university if that's what they are aiming for. My friend did get her LPN there though and seems like a good nurse so maybe it was ok for more "trade" type degrees. Community college is not the answer to the kids flunking out of ITT tech. They won't do better in community college, they will just have comparatively less debt. Getting more kids in community college is certainly not the answer. More subsidies is even more not the answer.

pessimizer 10y ago
> Community college is not the answer to the kids flunking out of ITT tech. Who's trying to solve the problem of kids flunking out of ITT Tech? One of the problems with ITT Tech is that you can't flunk out of it. > They won't do better in community college, they will just have comparatively less debt. You seem to think that there's a problem with people doing badly at ITT Tech. The problem is that ITT Tech is bad, not that people are doing badly there. That people are saddled with a worthless qualification and are in crushing debt from the process of getting it is the problem. > Getting more kids in community college is certainly not the answer. To the question that nobody asked? No. To people ending up in horrible debt with a worthless credential? Of course it is. It would take you 4-5 years in community college to generate the debt that you can in a semester of one of these fake schools. Community colleges are fine. Some are great. I went from community college to university, and a ton of other people did with me, a few to Northwestern and the University of Chicago (I just went to UIC.) I'm sorry you didn't like yours, but you shouldn't judge all Chinese restaurants because the meal you had at the one in your hometown was too salty. > More subsidies is even more not the answer. To what question?

mathattack 10y ago

Your last paragraph is spot on. Community Colleges (supported by MOOCs) and apprenticeship and trade school programs are the way to go. 3rd tier colleges with Ivy League prices aren't, and are only done based on misleading financial aid. I've seen a lot of resumes of people from for-profit schools. The graduates fall in 2 camps: Those who regret the decision, and those who don't realize how badly they were scammed. 90% of the time I see a title attached to someone's name ("Jane Smith, Phd" or "John Doe, MBA") it's from one of these overpriced degree factories, and it's a terribly negative signal.

droopybuns 10y ago

It feels like non "for-profit" schools also suffer from the same reality, now that the prices are commonly hovering around 40K per year at smaller liberal arts schools.

tptacek 10y ago

That's not the dream. The dream is to get access to the billions of dollars the Federal Government spends to finance college degrees. Tuition costs at for-profit schools track neither those companies inputs nor the value they actually provide to the market. The distinction is important. It is likely --- overwhelmingly likely, I think --- that there are programs with "the dream" you site that will work well. They just won't work like government-subsidized for-profit colleges.