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This comes off as pretty out of touch with reality. > [Electric car] that is much safer It's way too early to tell, we need a decade more of statistics before

This comes off as pretty out of touch with reality. > [Electric car] that is much safer It's way too early to tell, we need a decade more of statistics before you can say that. As of now, there are many gasoline cars that have better safety records than the Model S; in terms of fatalities per mile it is only on par with the NHTSA average. > [Electric cars] that unlike gasoline cars is upgraded for free on a regular basis after you purchased it Gasoline cars have similarly complex ECUs and entertainment systems and are already being updated for free (usually at regular services). > [Electric car] has much more luggage space The Model X "SUV" proves that electric cars with decent range are so far restricted to the "liftback" body shape. Let me know when there is an electric equivalent of a Chevy Suburban or Volvo V70 (which really have much more luggage space). > unlike gasoline cars, [electric cars] can be upgraded modularly for small investments You've seriously never heard of the $300 billion-a-year market for aftermarket car parts? Never heard of the SEMA show? Gasoline cars are much better suited for modular upgrades: everything from better air filters to chiptuning to a bigger turbo is easily available and can be done by anyone with freely available tools in their garage. Unlike electric cars, which are inherently much less hackable. > They haven't integrated solar in the cars yet to further kill any range anxiety. You clearly haven't done the basic math here: a solar panel the size of a car roof will take several weeks to charge an electric car. > Any day Tesla can license their battery technology and superchargers Tesla does not own the IP for the battery tech nor the superchargers

codeulike 10y ago
> Safety Tesla Model S Achieves Best Safety Rating of Any Car Ever Tested http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safety-rating-of-any-car-ever-tested-2013-8?IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-tesla-model-s-achieves-... > Upgrades Due to dealerships, most cars can _only_ have their software upgrades during services. Tesla can push it out over the air. I'm not aware of anyone else doing that, and they probably can't due to dealership rules. > Luggage space But there's the frunk. Because the motor is the size of a watermelon instead of 1/4 of the car. The Model S has nearly twice as much cargo space as, say, the Audi A6. http://cars.axlegeeks.com/compare/1525-4509/2013-Tesla-Model-S-vs-2014-Audi-A6 http://cars.axlegeeks.com/compare/1525-4509/2013-Tesla-Model... > Solar Yep we can agree on this one, solar wont help on cars. > Licencing > Tesla does not own the IP for the battery tech nor the superchargers Do you have a source for that? Tesla batteries are damn complicated, its not just a load of laptop batteries glued together, there are very complex support systems around the battery cells. Are you telling me they dont own the IP for that?
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  If the OTA updates is something customers want, it will be straightforward for other car companies to follow suit. As for luggage space: I was talking about an estate/wagon class car, so this is the correct comparison: http://cars.axlegeeks.com/compare/1525-17575/2013-Tesla-Model-S-vs-2008-Audi-A6-AWD-Wagon http://cars.axlegeeks.com/compare/1525-17575/2013-Tesla-Mode... Also, just counting cubic feet with two luggage compartments is only helpful in some situations. You wouldn't be able to fit a washing machine in a Model S, for instance, or a dog cage, nor most baby prams (without significant disassembly). Tesla does own some patents on the battery pack assembly, but Musk famously declared a while back that these are free for all other car companies to use in good faith. (He "open sourced" them.) Also, Tesla is the only electric car manufacturer going for the 18650 cell as the basis, all others are going for much larger individual cells in their packs, so most of Tesla's battery pack IP doesn't apply to others since it's specific to the cell form factor.
  - codeulike 10y ago
    > OTA You don't understand. Most car manufacturers have agreements with dealerships that will prevent OTA updates from being possible. > Musk famously declared a while back that these are free for all other car companies to use in good faith Yep, but 'good faith' means opening up their IP in return, more or less, so not many companies are taking that up. Anyhow Tesla still own the IP, so your original statement is incorrect.
    - Xylakant 10y ago
      > You don't understand. Most car manufacturers have agreements with dealerships that will prevent OTA updates from being possible. There are also legal frameworks that make OTA updates edgy. Tesla is being investigated in germany because pushing additional features ("auto"pilot) might substantially alter the car from the approved version, leaving it without approval to drive on german roads. OTA also suffers from all the beautiful issues that networked updates suffer from, most notably security, authentication, encryption. I for one prefer updates done via good old fashioned removable media. So yes, OTA updates are nice, but I'm not certain I really really want that in my car.
flexie 10y ago
Just to address a few of your points: I believe Tesla's idea behind solar panels is to extend the range a bit (5 percent or so) in order to alleviate the range anxiety drivers have, not to charge the batteries fully. At least not before the batteries and panels get much more efficient. As for IP, Tesla doesn't need to own all IP from lithium ion batteries to chargers. Just to have the necessary licenses for whichever part of the the base IP which is not already in free use and to have licenses or patents to the way they have put it all together (the way they combine the batteries, their charger etc.). Take Volvo: For them, building a network of chargers covering their markets would mean an investment of billions of euros that they don't have. Buy batteries from Tesla instead, and they can pay as they go. Changing modules in an electric will eventually be like changing RAM or a fan in a computer. Something most people can't do themselves but that an expert can do in half an hour. Electric cars can be built like PCs where one module can replace another. Gasoline cars are not as modular. Also, the 300 billion dollar market for gasoline car parts is mainly because there are many and many old gasoline cars and because their moving parts need to be repaired and replaced often, not because they are upgraded. You rarely upgrade a gasoline car - you mainly fix broken stuff. I never heard of anyone handing in their gasoline car and picking it up a few days later with faster acceleration and longer range, just like Tesla now offers with their new battery.
- CoryG89 10y ago
  > You rarely upgrade a gasoline car - you mainly fix broken stuff. I never heard of anyone handing in their gasoline car and picking it up a few days later with faster acceleration and longer range, just like Tesla now offers with their new battery. Ever seen "The Fast and the Furious"? I am pretty sure people upgrade their gasoline cars all the time. People already replace modular parts on their cars similar to computers. OEM upgrades that increase acceleration, etc may not be common, but aftermarket upgrades that increase acceleration or horsepower are extremely common. I'd bet there are many more options for upgrading an old 90s model Toyota Supra or Mitsubishi Eclipse than there are for a brand new Tesla Model S.
  - Ericson2314 10y ago
    Um PCs are module because there is a history of competition going back to IBM using off-then-shelf parts. Basically everything from technology companies since is more anti-modular and anti-competative.

codeulike 10y ago

> Safety Tesla Model S Achieves Best Safety Rating of Any Car Ever Tested http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safety-rating-of-any-car-ever-tested-2013-8?IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-tesla-model-s-achieves-... > Upgrades Due to dealerships, most cars can _only_ have their software upgrades during services. Tesla can push it out over the air. I'm not aware of anyone else doing that, and they probably can't due to dealership rules. > Luggage space But there's the frunk. Because the motor is the size of a watermelon instead of 1/4 of the car. The Model S has nearly twice as much cargo space as, say, the Audi A6. http://cars.axlegeeks.com/compare/1525-4509/2013-Tesla-Model-S-vs-2014-Audi-A6 http://cars.axlegeeks.com/compare/1525-4509/2013-Tesla-Model... > Solar Yep we can agree on this one, solar wont help on cars. > Licencing > Tesla does not own the IP for the battery tech nor the superchargers Do you have a source for that? Tesla batteries are damn complicated, its not just a load of laptop batteries glued together, there are very complex support systems around the battery cells. Are you telling me they dont own the IP for that?

semi-extrinsic 10y ago
If the OTA updates is something customers want, it will be straightforward for other car companies to follow suit. As for luggage space: I was talking about an estate/wagon class car, so this is the correct comparison: http://cars.axlegeeks.com/compare/1525-17575/2013-Tesla-Model-S-vs-2008-Audi-A6-AWD-Wagon http://cars.axlegeeks.com/compare/1525-17575/2013-Tesla-Mode... Also, just counting cubic feet with two luggage compartments is only helpful in some situations. You wouldn't be able to fit a washing machine in a Model S, for instance, or a dog cage, nor most baby prams (without significant disassembly). Tesla does own some patents on the battery pack assembly, but Musk famously declared a while back that these are free for all other car companies to use in good faith. (He "open sourced" them.) Also, Tesla is the only electric car manufacturer going for the 18650 cell as the basis, all others are going for much larger individual cells in their packs, so most of Tesla's battery pack IP doesn't apply to others since it's specific to the cell form factor.
- codeulike 10y ago
  > OTA You don't understand. Most car manufacturers have agreements with dealerships that will prevent OTA updates from being possible. > Musk famously declared a while back that these are free for all other car companies to use in good faith Yep, but 'good faith' means opening up their IP in return, more or less, so not many companies are taking that up. Anyhow Tesla still own the IP, so your original statement is incorrect.
  - Xylakant 10y ago
    > You don't understand. Most car manufacturers have agreements with dealerships that will prevent OTA updates from being possible. There are also legal frameworks that make OTA updates edgy. Tesla is being investigated in germany because pushing additional features ("auto"pilot) might substantially alter the car from the approved version, leaving it without approval to drive on german roads. OTA also suffers from all the beautiful issues that networked updates suffer from, most notably security, authentication, encryption. I for one prefer updates done via good old fashioned removable media. So yes, OTA updates are nice, but I'm not certain I really really want that in my car.

flexie 10y ago

Just to address a few of your points: I believe Tesla's idea behind solar panels is to extend the range a bit (5 percent or so) in order to alleviate the range anxiety drivers have, not to charge the batteries fully. At least not before the batteries and panels get much more efficient. As for IP, Tesla doesn't need to own all IP from lithium ion batteries to chargers. Just to have the necessary licenses for whichever part of the the base IP which is not already in free use and to have licenses or patents to the way they have put it all together (the way they combine the batteries, their charger etc.). Take Volvo: For them, building a network of chargers covering their markets would mean an investment of billions of euros that they don't have. Buy batteries from Tesla instead, and they can pay as they go. Changing modules in an electric will eventually be like changing RAM or a fan in a computer. Something most people can't do themselves but that an expert can do in half an hour. Electric cars can be built like PCs where one module can replace another. Gasoline cars are not as modular. Also, the 300 billion dollar market for gasoline car parts is mainly because there are many and many old gasoline cars and because their moving parts need to be repaired and replaced often, not because they are upgraded. You rarely upgrade a gasoline car - you mainly fix broken stuff. I never heard of anyone handing in their gasoline car and picking it up a few days later with faster acceleration and longer range, just like Tesla now offers with their new battery.

CoryG89 10y ago
> You rarely upgrade a gasoline car - you mainly fix broken stuff. I never heard of anyone handing in their gasoline car and picking it up a few days later with faster acceleration and longer range, just like Tesla now offers with their new battery. Ever seen "The Fast and the Furious"? I am pretty sure people upgrade their gasoline cars all the time. People already replace modular parts on their cars similar to computers. OEM upgrades that increase acceleration, etc may not be common, but aftermarket upgrades that increase acceleration or horsepower are extremely common. I'd bet there are many more options for upgrading an old 90s model Toyota Supra or Mitsubishi Eclipse than there are for a brand new Tesla Model S.
- Ericson2314 10y ago
  Um PCs are module because there is a history of competition going back to IBM using off-then-shelf parts. Basically everything from technology companies since is more anti-modular and anti-competative.