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A very interesting and thought-provoking essay. This part in particular stuck out: > Otherwise monkeys would have self awareness and they don't This suggests
by haberman 10y ago
A very interesting and thought-provoking essay. This part in particular stuck out:
> Otherwise monkeys would have self awareness and they don't
This suggests the existence of other research that has both defined the concept of self-awareness robustly and made it testable enough that we can state as fact that monkeys don't have it. Does anybody know what this might be alluding to?
- aleksei 10y agoYeah, the essay was good, but unsatisfactory in explaining why monkeys, dolphins, or even most other animals would not possess self awareness. It's easy to disregard others, when we don't share a common tongue.
- SCAQTony 10y agoThere appears to be more evidence that dogs are self aware rather than not: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/opinion/sunday/dogs-are-people-too.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&single=1 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/opinion/sunday/dogs-are-pe... Newer studies illustrated with MRI scans that dogs can comprehend language and the emotional tone of their owners.... And dogs can get jealous too. http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/08/dogs-recognize-both-words-and-tone-to-know-when-theyre-good/ http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/08/dogs-recognize-both-w... Reference regarding jealously: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jul/23/dogs-jealous-owners-attention-study https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jul/23/dogs-jealous...
- ThomPete 10y agoThis sounds more like humans interpreting behavior rather than proof of that behavior.
- MacsHeadroom 10y agoEqually like, anyway.
- eli_gottlieb 10y agoWhen you're referring to measured brain activity as "behavior", you've redefined the word beyond any usefulness to neuroscience.
- ThomPete 10y agoI wasn't, bad choice of words.
- noam87 10y agoIn that case someone should set out to investigate whether humans are self aware.
- dominotw 10y ago>Does anybody know what this might be alluding to? According to the article, Self-awareness is 'other awareness' applied to yourself where 'other awareness' is constructing meaningful models of other peoples minds in order to predict their behavior. But as you said it seems like 'monkeys are not self-aware' was a presumption made by the author, i.e monkeys don't have model for self. But, how can we verify this?. He is saying'mirror neurons play important role in self but not that important otherwise monkeys would have a self', so the original problem still remains.
- cel1ne 10y agoI wonder why they use the word "other awareness", when there is a long-established term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind
- solipsism 10y agoBecause he's talking about "other awareness" and "self awareness" as distinct concepts. ToM includes both.
- type0 10y agoI think he had chosen the wrong words here, it's foolish to think that great apes are not self aware. However they don't have the kind of insight in their own thinking that humans posses. We can draw some conclusions on how they use tool or organize themselves socially and on the surface we might not be that different. Apes can teach each other how to dig for water in cases of drought, but their planning and preparation only goes so far. I think our self awareness is much more linked to curiosity and goal determination than anything. I don't mean that it arises from those but that it is our inherent ingenuity of that made us conquer the Earth.
- amelius 10y agoOut of curiosity, do apes understand death, like humans do?
- woliveirajr 10y agoDeath as in "someday I'll die" or in the "I'll kill" ? There was a footage on some simians ambushing and torturing (?) and killing another one.
- joshvm 10y agoWhether the phrasing was intentional or not, monkeys are not apes.
- eagsalazar2 10y agoIt is a common arrogance, even among "scientists", to assume that no other animal has self awareness or even emotions.
- ThomPete 10y agoCan you point to any evidence even in the fringe sciences that would attempt to prove that monkeys have self awareness?
- janpieterz 10y agoNot an expert, but it's certainly something that's actively researched... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#Animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#Animals
- daveguy 10y agoI always thought the mirror test / mark test was a pretty well established test for self awareness, and several animals pass it. It's not particularly fringe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
- greggyb 10y agoActually, this is called into question in the fine article: > (Incidentally, Gallup's mirror test — removing a paint splotch from your face while looking at a mirror — is not an adequate test of self awareness, even though it is touted as such. We have seen patients who vehemently claim that their reflection in the mirror is "someone else" yet they pass the Gallup test!)
- daveguy 10y agoThe point is that awareness testing is not a fringe part of animal behavioral studies. This would be a potential area of research for mainstream animal behavior study (paired mirror tests).
- 10y ago
- littlepenguin 10y agoi think the author is referring to the Gallup Test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test