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It might be cultural differences but it always amazes me how people can have such strong opinions without even a tiny doubt that there might be a chance that th

by qaq 10y ago

It might be cultural differences but it always amazes me how people can have such strong opinions without even a tiny doubt that there might be a chance that the person they are criticising is a bit more informed/experienced and is maybe taking actions based on their knowledge and experience.

aphextron 10y ago
Normally I'd agree with you on this point, but it seems that Musk is the one displaying hubris here. The gullwing doors were a blatant disregard for the 100+ years of engineering expertise that has converged on the current design of a car door, and throwing that out the window for something flashy and attention grabbing. The criticism is well deserved.
- hueving 10y ago
  100+ years of expertise also converged on the ICE
  - aphextron 10y ago
    Sure, but that's a straw man arguement. Cost effective LiPo batteries didn't exist until a few years ago, making ICE's the only viable means of powering a vehicle for long distance travel. As far as I know, the laws of physics governing car doors hasn't changed in the last decade.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  >he gullwing doors were a blatant disregard for the 100+ years of engineering expertise that has converged on the current design of a car door, and throwing that out the window for something flashy and attention grabbing. // Gull-wing doors surely are designed to do one thing, sell the car on look alone. Surely people know they're impractical; but they have the essence of supercar in that impracticality. I had a Lambo' Countache poster as a kid, the flip up doors were probably terrible in practice but they had an evocative unusualness that showed this was no ordinary car. I imagine it gives the vehicle a lot of free marketing and a strong differentiator.
- chc 10y ago
  The falcon wing doors were only a small part of the post the parent was commenting on. IIRC even Musk has conceded that their reach exceeded their grasp a bit when it came to those doors, but does that one point validate the entire comment?
adamlett 10y ago
The problem is that Elon Musk has a history of not keeping his promises. Sure, we got the Model S, but late, and a lot more expensive than promised. With the Model 3, he is promising even more. It's relatively easy to build an expensive luxury car. It's incredibly difficult to mass produce an affordable mass market car. We have yet to see any evidence that Tesla is capable of doing so. This is not just something that I believe. Lots of people believe it, and put their money where their mouth is. Tesla is one of the most shorted stocks there is.
- qaq 10y ago
  "It's relatively easy to build an expensive luxury car." Would be nice to back this up with examples. Especially in volume segment like here's another example of a company entering luxury car market making a competitive vehicle that's for the sake of argument just hits top spot in sales in the S class segment.
  - Shivetya 10y ago
    its not only easy to build them its easy to profit off of them. they are the biggest profit makers for car makers because it really doesn't cost that much more to reach that point. I don't understand your doubt, there are many examples of boutique car companies who sell on either luxury or performance and sometimes both. They are all low volume adventures. There simply is more room to profit and that is attractive. Plus its very easy to feed off of pretentious people, pretentious geeks are even simpler.
    - qaq 10y ago
      50,000 a year is not boutique. It's hard to build competitive production luxury vehicle, the only success stories in that segment are Lexus, Acura and Infiniti and they are obviously subsidiaries of existing large automakers. Majority of boutique luxury brands are owned by major conglomerates and with exception of few are actually loss leaders that primarily exists for prestige purposes.
      - 10y ago
hourislate 10y ago
I was thinking the same thing after reading OP's comment. I wouldn't even try to wrap my arms around what Elon is doing. Cars, Energy, Rockets, etc. It's not everyday that someone who wants to change the status quo comes along. All I know is he must be very lonely with so many people hoping he fails.
- qaq 10y ago
  That's another thing I can't understand if he succeeds we all win in a very fundamental way, why so many people hope he fails is beyond me.
  - jwebb99 10y ago
    I don't think people are necessarily hoping he will fail, rather they believe his failure is a forgone conclusion, and they can't understand why others can't see that...including Musk. NOTE: I'm not a hater or a fanboy.
  - farcical_tinpot 10y ago
    Few want him to fail, and we'd all love the grand plans to succeed....but at some point a dose of realism has to be injected. Elon isn't a pied piper. We do need to think for ourselves occasionally, as do investors.
  - nihonde 10y ago
    If he fails for making promises he could never keep, many will stand to lose. I live in the home of Toyota in Japan, and would welcome any competition that pushes Japanese automakers to achieve more, but in my opinion Tesla is not showing the signs of a business that can scale. Incidentally, I blame the American consumers, investors, media, and labor pool for that shortcoming as much or more than I would blame Musk. A great leader is still only as good as his weakest link. In my view, America is incapable of sustaining a great manufacturing culture at scale due to the influence of various perverse incentives that have woven themselves into the cultural fabric.
- coliveira 10y ago
  I really don't see any difference if he wins or succeeds. Do you think he is the only person who can do cars or rockets for example? If he fails someone else will pick up the slack, so I see no reason to cheer that he will do it (or for the same reason to expect the opposite). Moreover, if he succeeds it is not only for his personal merits. That's one of the things that the media gets completely wrong. It is more for the merits of a large group of people working in engineering, advertisement, financing, and because of the general state of the economy. Similarly, if he fails it will not be solely because of his personal qualities.
farcical_tinpot 10y ago
I'm afraid it's a case of "Show me the money", meaning, "Have you achieved what you say you can and have before you move on to the next grand vision of the future?" For him to say that 'stage one' is complete is laughable. We haven't seen Model 3s on sale for $35,000 yet, we haven't seen whether Tesla can get the required production (which they simply can't) and they haven't achieved profit on any car at all yet.
- qaq 10y ago
  I am also afraid this is a case of "Show me the money". He built 3 multi-billion dollar companies 2 are profitable. That's speaks volumes about his ability to make business decisions now unless you have comparable experience calling his business abilities "laughable" is in itself laughable. Might Tesla fail sure it might, but to use such a condescending tone to comment unless you have a comparable track record is very bad form.
  - nihonde 10y ago
    This the second comment that is critical of Tesla that you have tried to censor by claiming that the parent has no standing to criticize unless they share the identical experience as Elon Musk. It's clear that you dislike any opinion that is bearish on Tesla, but your rationale for stifling those opinions is spurious.
    - qaq 10y ago
      Anyone can be critical now being condescending is a totally different thing. How exactly can I censor anything?

by qaq 10y ago

aphextron 10y ago

Normally I'd agree with you on this point, but it seems that Musk is the one displaying hubris here. The gullwing doors were a blatant disregard for the 100+ years of engineering expertise that has converged on the current design of a car door, and throwing that out the window for something flashy and attention grabbing. The criticism is well deserved.

hueving 10y ago
100+ years of expertise also converged on the ICE
- aphextron 10y ago
  Sure, but that's a straw man arguement. Cost effective LiPo batteries didn't exist until a few years ago, making ICE's the only viable means of powering a vehicle for long distance travel. As far as I know, the laws of physics governing car doors hasn't changed in the last decade.
pbhjpbhj 10y ago
>he gullwing doors were a blatant disregard for the 100+ years of engineering expertise that has converged on the current design of a car door, and throwing that out the window for something flashy and attention grabbing. // Gull-wing doors surely are designed to do one thing, sell the car on look alone. Surely people know they're impractical; but they have the essence of supercar in that impracticality. I had a Lambo' Countache poster as a kid, the flip up doors were probably terrible in practice but they had an evocative unusualness that showed this was no ordinary car. I imagine it gives the vehicle a lot of free marketing and a strong differentiator.
chc 10y ago
The falcon wing doors were only a small part of the post the parent was commenting on. IIRC even Musk has conceded that their reach exceeded their grasp a bit when it came to those doors, but does that one point validate the entire comment?

adamlett 10y ago

The problem is that Elon Musk has a history of not keeping his promises. Sure, we got the Model S, but late, and a lot more expensive than promised. With the Model 3, he is promising even more. It's relatively easy to build an expensive luxury car. It's incredibly difficult to mass produce an affordable mass market car. We have yet to see any evidence that Tesla is capable of doing so. This is not just something that I believe. Lots of people believe it, and put their money where their mouth is. Tesla is one of the most shorted stocks there is.

qaq 10y ago
"It's relatively easy to build an expensive luxury car." Would be nice to back this up with examples. Especially in volume segment like here's another example of a company entering luxury car market making a competitive vehicle that's for the sake of argument just hits top spot in sales in the S class segment.
- Shivetya 10y ago
  its not only easy to build them its easy to profit off of them. they are the biggest profit makers for car makers because it really doesn't cost that much more to reach that point. I don't understand your doubt, there are many examples of boutique car companies who sell on either luxury or performance and sometimes both. They are all low volume adventures. There simply is more room to profit and that is attractive. Plus its very easy to feed off of pretentious people, pretentious geeks are even simpler.
  - qaq 10y ago
    50,000 a year is not boutique. It's hard to build competitive production luxury vehicle, the only success stories in that segment are Lexus, Acura and Infiniti and they are obviously subsidiaries of existing large automakers. Majority of boutique luxury brands are owned by major conglomerates and with exception of few are actually loss leaders that primarily exists for prestige purposes.
    - 10y ago

hourislate 10y ago

I was thinking the same thing after reading OP's comment. I wouldn't even try to wrap my arms around what Elon is doing. Cars, Energy, Rockets, etc. It's not everyday that someone who wants to change the status quo comes along. All I know is he must be very lonely with so many people hoping he fails.

qaq 10y ago
That's another thing I can't understand if he succeeds we all win in a very fundamental way, why so many people hope he fails is beyond me.
- jwebb99 10y ago
  I don't think people are necessarily hoping he will fail, rather they believe his failure is a forgone conclusion, and they can't understand why others can't see that...including Musk. NOTE: I'm not a hater or a fanboy.
- farcical_tinpot 10y ago
  Few want him to fail, and we'd all love the grand plans to succeed....but at some point a dose of realism has to be injected. Elon isn't a pied piper. We do need to think for ourselves occasionally, as do investors.
- nihonde 10y ago
  If he fails for making promises he could never keep, many will stand to lose. I live in the home of Toyota in Japan, and would welcome any competition that pushes Japanese automakers to achieve more, but in my opinion Tesla is not showing the signs of a business that can scale. Incidentally, I blame the American consumers, investors, media, and labor pool for that shortcoming as much or more than I would blame Musk. A great leader is still only as good as his weakest link. In my view, America is incapable of sustaining a great manufacturing culture at scale due to the influence of various perverse incentives that have woven themselves into the cultural fabric.
coliveira 10y ago
I really don't see any difference if he wins or succeeds. Do you think he is the only person who can do cars or rockets for example? If he fails someone else will pick up the slack, so I see no reason to cheer that he will do it (or for the same reason to expect the opposite). Moreover, if he succeeds it is not only for his personal merits. That's one of the things that the media gets completely wrong. It is more for the merits of a large group of people working in engineering, advertisement, financing, and because of the general state of the economy. Similarly, if he fails it will not be solely because of his personal qualities.

farcical_tinpot 10y ago

I'm afraid it's a case of "Show me the money", meaning, "Have you achieved what you say you can and have before you move on to the next grand vision of the future?" For him to say that 'stage one' is complete is laughable. We haven't seen Model 3s on sale for $35,000 yet, we haven't seen whether Tesla can get the required production (which they simply can't) and they haven't achieved profit on any car at all yet.

qaq 10y ago
I am also afraid this is a case of "Show me the money". He built 3 multi-billion dollar companies 2 are profitable. That's speaks volumes about his ability to make business decisions now unless you have comparable experience calling his business abilities "laughable" is in itself laughable. Might Tesla fail sure it might, but to use such a condescending tone to comment unless you have a comparable track record is very bad form.
- nihonde 10y ago
  This the second comment that is critical of Tesla that you have tried to censor by claiming that the parent has no standing to criticize unless they share the identical experience as Elon Musk. It's clear that you dislike any opinion that is bearish on Tesla, but your rationale for stifling those opinions is spurious.
  - qaq 10y ago
    Anyone can be critical now being condescending is a totally different thing. How exactly can I censor anything?