5 ms·

> I've never understood why U.S. is so protective in terms of citizenship. We've got a lot of racist assholes, basically. Particularly ironic for a country tha

> I've never understood why U.S. is so protective in terms of citizenship. We've got a lot of racist assholes, basically. Particularly ironic for a country that was founded on immigration. These laws, and their heavy-handed enforcement, are mainly targeted at keeping out Mexicans. European and Asian immigrants are collateral damage, essentially. Europe, unfortunately, is starting to go the same way. I think it was Switzerland that denied citizenship to a couple of teenage Muslim girls because they didn't want to swim with boys in mandatory co-ed swim class. They've also banned minarets on mosques, apparently--I have no clue how they pretend to justify that. Xenophobia makes people do ridiculous things.

bruceb 10y ago
Heavy handed enforcement? If we had that we would not have 12m people here illegally. Wanting to keep national character is respecting culture. Switzerland is right to defend equality
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  So, in your mind, "defending equality" means deporting people who don't respect the sanctity of swim class.
  - dragandj 10y ago
    Assuming that the story you've told actually happened. Yeah, two kids in a school didn't want to enter the pool, and they've sent them packing back to (where?) because of that. Have I understood well what you described?
    - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
      Do you not follow the news? It was all over a few months ago. Here: https://www.google.com/search?q=muslim+girls+denied+citizenship+because+of+swimming+lessons&oq=muslim+girls+denied+citizenship+because+of+swimming+lessons&gs_l=serp.3...8313.9814.0.10006.12.12.0.0.0.0.132.765.5j3.8.0....0...1.1.64.serp..4.0.0.r-pP2pez1jA https://www.google.com/search?q=muslim+girls+denied+citizens... As of the story breaking at the end of June, they had not yet been expelled from Switzerland, but we both know what "denied citizenship" means.
      - dragandj 10y ago
        Yes, I follow the news, and they are not the same as what you described. By the Swiss law, any aspirant for the Swiss citizenship has to show (among other things) that he/she is integrated into Swiss culture and society. The immigrant family clearly does not want to accept that, so they did not get citizenship. No right has been denied to them: they are still in Switzerland, and are free people who can do whatever they like, and, what's more, are allowed to fully practice their religion, which I understood is most important to them. So, TL;DR: a family, actively, defiantly, on purpose, failed one of citizenship tests and were not granted citizenship. Citizenship is not something that guests are entitled to. It's practically an award by the host. Mind you, I am not a Swiss, nor US citizen, nor an EU citizen. I would like to be, since it would benefit my situation considerably, but I was born in another country. So, why any of these countries would be obligated to grant me their citizenship?
prance 10y ago
Why is this down voted? It is the truth.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  As I said, xenophobia makes people do ridiculous things.
drinchev 10y ago
The two stories doesn't match. It was a decision of the girls ( or their father ) [1] not to be naturalized. They could've just did the swim with the boys and they would've got their citizenship. On the other hand my friend had NO CHOICE in her 24 year stay in the U.S. to get a citizenship ( although she followed all the rules / laws of the country ). [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-citizenship-muslim-girls-refuse-swim-boys-islam-immigration-europe-a7111601.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-c...
- jacquesm 10y ago
  If you think underage muslim girls are normally going to go against the wishes of their father then you clearly don't know much about the kind of patriarchy they are exposed to. Fathers word > law.
  - drinchev 10y ago
    Child education comes from 1) parents & 2) society. (1) should not exclude (2) and vice versa. If the patriarchy family understood the idea of education better, maybe they would've thought their children that the law > father word. If they do understand that idea, but don't like it. Well they should vote on their next election for someone that doesn't support it. What they should not do is go against the law and do something on their own. Because that's what makes us all citizens.
  - dragandj 10y ago
    Maybe in Middle East. Not in Switzerland.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      You'd think so but in plenty of those households when you cross the threshold you might as well be in the middle east. I've had plenty of contact with Muslim families living in the West and the range is very wide, given that these girls were not allowed to swim with the boys it isn't a wild guess at all that their family is on the traditional side of the spectrum.
jkot 10y ago
Europe was like that for a long time. France and Germany were vey scared when eastern countries joined EU.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  Well, it still is. Just look at Brexit, which was largely driven by eastern immigrants "stealing jobs"
  - vacri 10y ago
    Ironically, according to the BBC, Brexit requires so much in the way of negotiators, and they're suspicious of pulling retired negotiators back into work (as they're overwhelming on the Remain side) that Whitehall is probably going to end up hiring foreign negotiators. No-one does irony as well as the Brits. > http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37190357 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37190357 "In such a febrile atmosphere Whitehall is likely to recruit some negotiators from other countries."
tonicoto 10y ago
>Europe, unfortunately, is starting to go the same way. I think it was Switzerland that denied citizenship to a couple of teenage Muslim girls because they didn't want to swim with boys in mandatory co-ed swim class. Behave like us, or get the hell out. Is that racist to you? Then I have bad news. You'll start to see that more and more often with time. And, unless the elites react in time, you'll see a purge in ~30 years.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  > Behave like us, or get the hell out. Is that racist to you? Is this a trick question?
- thrkw123456789 10y ago
  > Behave like us, or get the hell out. Is that racist to you? Depends on the level of behaviour. But largely yes that is a fairly racist sentiment.
  - tonicoto 10y ago
    I don't understand. If they don't like the way our society functions, why did they come here in first place?
    - ddeck 10y ago
      Societies are (thankfully) not homogeneous. Some women may feel comfortable going topless at beaches in countries that permit it and it may even be the norm. Does that mean that all women should be okay with that? Where do you set the bar?
      - tonicoto 10y ago
        The bar is set where you are forced to do something. If your tits are saggy and you don't want to go topless, then don't, I guess?
    - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
shambala 10y ago
I completely support what Switzerland did. If you don't want to be part of the culture you are joining, they don't have to let you in. Note that they are not expelling the girls-they are denying them citizenship. Citizenship for Switzerland means shared values. Ping me when Saudi Arabia allows Jews to become citizens.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  If you think Saudi Arabia is a good example of how nations should be run, then something is very wrong with your priorities.
  - michaelbuddy 10y ago
    Maybe read their comment again. It went over your head I think.

bruceb 10y ago

Heavy handed enforcement? If we had that we would not have 12m people here illegally. Wanting to keep national character is respecting culture. Switzerland is right to defend equality

PhasmaFelis 10y ago
So, in your mind, "defending equality" means deporting people who don't respect the sanctity of swim class.
- dragandj 10y ago
  Assuming that the story you've told actually happened. Yeah, two kids in a school didn't want to enter the pool, and they've sent them packing back to (where?) because of that. Have I understood well what you described?
  - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
    Do you not follow the news? It was all over a few months ago. Here: https://www.google.com/search?q=muslim+girls+denied+citizenship+because+of+swimming+lessons&oq=muslim+girls+denied+citizenship+because+of+swimming+lessons&gs_l=serp.3...8313.9814.0.10006.12.12.0.0.0.0.132.765.5j3.8.0....0...1.1.64.serp..4.0.0.r-pP2pez1jA https://www.google.com/search?q=muslim+girls+denied+citizens... As of the story breaking at the end of June, they had not yet been expelled from Switzerland, but we both know what "denied citizenship" means.
    - dragandj 10y ago
      Yes, I follow the news, and they are not the same as what you described. By the Swiss law, any aspirant for the Swiss citizenship has to show (among other things) that he/she is integrated into Swiss culture and society. The immigrant family clearly does not want to accept that, so they did not get citizenship. No right has been denied to them: they are still in Switzerland, and are free people who can do whatever they like, and, what's more, are allowed to fully practice their religion, which I understood is most important to them. So, TL;DR: a family, actively, defiantly, on purpose, failed one of citizenship tests and were not granted citizenship. Citizenship is not something that guests are entitled to. It's practically an award by the host. Mind you, I am not a Swiss, nor US citizen, nor an EU citizen. I would like to be, since it would benefit my situation considerably, but I was born in another country. So, why any of these countries would be obligated to grant me their citizenship?

prance 10y ago

Why is this down voted? It is the truth.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago
As I said, xenophobia makes people do ridiculous things.

drinchev 10y ago

The two stories doesn't match. It was a decision of the girls ( or their father ) [1] not to be naturalized. They could've just did the swim with the boys and they would've got their citizenship. On the other hand my friend had NO CHOICE in her 24 year stay in the U.S. to get a citizenship ( although she followed all the rules / laws of the country ). [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-citizenship-muslim-girls-refuse-swim-boys-islam-immigration-europe-a7111601.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-c...

jacquesm 10y ago
If you think underage muslim girls are normally going to go against the wishes of their father then you clearly don't know much about the kind of patriarchy they are exposed to. Fathers word > law.
- drinchev 10y ago
  Child education comes from 1) parents & 2) society. (1) should not exclude (2) and vice versa. If the patriarchy family understood the idea of education better, maybe they would've thought their children that the law > father word. If they do understand that idea, but don't like it. Well they should vote on their next election for someone that doesn't support it. What they should not do is go against the law and do something on their own. Because that's what makes us all citizens.
- dragandj 10y ago
  Maybe in Middle East. Not in Switzerland.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    You'd think so but in plenty of those households when you cross the threshold you might as well be in the middle east. I've had plenty of contact with Muslim families living in the West and the range is very wide, given that these girls were not allowed to swim with the boys it isn't a wild guess at all that their family is on the traditional side of the spectrum.

jkot 10y ago

Europe was like that for a long time. France and Germany were vey scared when eastern countries joined EU.

kalleboo 10y ago
Well, it still is. Just look at Brexit, which was largely driven by eastern immigrants "stealing jobs"
- vacri 10y ago
  Ironically, according to the BBC, Brexit requires so much in the way of negotiators, and they're suspicious of pulling retired negotiators back into work (as they're overwhelming on the Remain side) that Whitehall is probably going to end up hiring foreign negotiators. No-one does irony as well as the Brits. > http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37190357 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37190357 "In such a febrile atmosphere Whitehall is likely to recruit some negotiators from other countries."

tonicoto 10y ago

>Europe, unfortunately, is starting to go the same way. I think it was Switzerland that denied citizenship to a couple of teenage Muslim girls because they didn't want to swim with boys in mandatory co-ed swim class. Behave like us, or get the hell out. Is that racist to you? Then I have bad news. You'll start to see that more and more often with time. And, unless the elites react in time, you'll see a purge in ~30 years.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago
> Behave like us, or get the hell out. Is that racist to you? Is this a trick question?
thrkw123456789 10y ago
> Behave like us, or get the hell out. Is that racist to you? Depends on the level of behaviour. But largely yes that is a fairly racist sentiment.
- tonicoto 10y ago
  I don't understand. If they don't like the way our society functions, why did they come here in first place?
  - ddeck 10y ago
    Societies are (thankfully) not homogeneous. Some women may feel comfortable going topless at beaches in countries that permit it and it may even be the norm. Does that mean that all women should be okay with that? Where do you set the bar?
    - tonicoto 10y ago
      The bar is set where you are forced to do something. If your tits are saggy and you don't want to go topless, then don't, I guess?
  - PhasmaFelis 10y ago

shambala 10y ago

I completely support what Switzerland did. If you don't want to be part of the culture you are joining, they don't have to let you in. Note that they are not expelling the girls-they are denying them citizenship. Citizenship for Switzerland means shared values. Ping me when Saudi Arabia allows Jews to become citizens.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago
If you think Saudi Arabia is a good example of how nations should be run, then something is very wrong with your priorities.
- michaelbuddy 10y ago
  Maybe read their comment again. It went over your head I think.