3 ms·

In response to the email spam thing (5 emails after the first week of a signup. Wow): I have some projects that fit the use case very well, but I personally ha

In response to the email spam thing (5 emails after the first week of a signup. Wow): I have some projects that fit the use case very well, but I personally hate receiving them. I know that I am not the target audience of my app and that familiarity with a product and just having the name show up over and over makes the product easier to recognize. Of course, the data shows it converts better. It just seems like one of those dark patterns. Is it really about choosing ethics or money? Is there a third option?

orky56 10y ago
As long as the company has an unsubscribe option and/or respects your response of "not interested", it is up to the company to nudge you to use the product and make the explicit decision to pay or not pay for the product. I don't personally see it as unethical as you have already demonstrated interest and have not opted out yet.
jermaustin1 10y ago
I struggled with this for years. I then realized, it isn't spam. The user can opt out at any moment and they are pulled off the marketing list. You legally always need to make that an option. Also it was over 10 days, so kind of longer than a week ;) But a transnational email is expected on signup, that is how you activate your account and verify your email address. Then the personal welcome was always a VERY highly opened and responded to email. I would do my best to keep up with the questions. The third email wasn't always sent, only if they hadn't used the product, and it was assumed they needed help. And the last email was a coupon, and who doesn't like coupons!?
cyberferret 10y ago
I don't like them either, but when I implemented them with our latest SaaS app, it really proved to be extremely useful to engage with users, and bring them back to the fold if they were thinking of letting their trial lapse. The beauty is that we run it all using Intercom.io, and if someone really doesn't want to hear from us, they can unsubscribe and never hear from us again. If they stay on, we can really tailor the drip onboarding emails and tailor it to suit their situation (e.g. logged on less that 'x' times, only entered < 5 transactions, never visited a particular page etc.) Speaking of 'dark patterns', I absolutely abhor, and insist on never using pop up email request dialogs on the main landing page of our site. My philosophy is never badger a potential customer before they sign up, but rather entice them to engage with me and my product after they have expressed an interest and signed up for a trial. We don't want to 'punish' people for just looking but we don't want them to feel alone if they are looking to become a user. Even then, if they choose to walk away, we stop pestering them after one last attempt to entice them back.
- jermaustin1 10y ago
  So I quit doing all of this right as intercom.io big (3 years ago now), so I'm jealous you are getting to work with them because I have only heard amazing things from the few industry people I still speak with. Maybe one day I will make my way back into the product world, and I will look to implement them instead of having to roll my own!
iuguy 10y ago
> Is it really about choosing ethics or money? Is there a third option? Something that's worth trying is to tell the reader in that first email how many emails you're going to send and give them the option to unsubscribe now. I'd also consider moving any guides or assistance on getting started emails into a drip feed course that they can opt into. That should reduce the amount of emails they receive while keeping the quality up. For most of us receiving mails, the quality is important. If it's an email we're interested that links to things that are interesting we'll open it and click links (even if there's 5 in a week). If it doesn't, it's just noise. I do an online email course on career hacking using ConvertKit[1]. I'm not really selling anything (I was but had to pull the product) but splitting the onboarding off not only lets you easily gauge interest but reduces the spam. For people who are interested in looking at how this works, you might want to take a look at the course, and of course I'd welcome any feedback by email. [1] - https://www.rawhex.com/hack-your-career/ https://www.rawhex.com/hack-your-career/
- pyre 10y ago
  > Something that's worth trying is to tell the reader in that first email how many emails you're going to send Somehow I just picture the scene from A Christmas Carol where Jacob Marley is telling Scrooge that he will be visited by 3 ghosts over the course of the night. > "Over the course of the next week, you will be visited by FIVE marketing emails"
marcosdumay 10y ago
It's 5 emails, in a total of 10 days. It's borderline noticeable, and lasts for only a short time. Also, one of them is expected and would be annoying not receiving it. If you don't send anything after those few emails, it's very hard to call them spam. Most people will even like receiving them. By the way, personally, I've got very wary of those personal emails from CEO on sign-up. They are blatant lies, it does not feel right and does steer me away from companies that send them. Does a "Note from the CEO" with a "reply to talk to me" at the end convert any worse?

orky56 10y ago

As long as the company has an unsubscribe option and/or respects your response of "not interested", it is up to the company to nudge you to use the product and make the explicit decision to pay or not pay for the product. I don't personally see it as unethical as you have already demonstrated interest and have not opted out yet.

jermaustin1 10y ago

I struggled with this for years. I then realized, it isn't spam. The user can opt out at any moment and they are pulled off the marketing list. You legally always need to make that an option. Also it was over 10 days, so kind of longer than a week ;) But a transnational email is expected on signup, that is how you activate your account and verify your email address. Then the personal welcome was always a VERY highly opened and responded to email. I would do my best to keep up with the questions. The third email wasn't always sent, only if they hadn't used the product, and it was assumed they needed help. And the last email was a coupon, and who doesn't like coupons!?

cyberferret 10y ago

I don't like them either, but when I implemented them with our latest SaaS app, it really proved to be extremely useful to engage with users, and bring them back to the fold if they were thinking of letting their trial lapse. The beauty is that we run it all using Intercom.io, and if someone really doesn't want to hear from us, they can unsubscribe and never hear from us again. If they stay on, we can really tailor the drip onboarding emails and tailor it to suit their situation (e.g. logged on less that 'x' times, only entered < 5 transactions, never visited a particular page etc.) Speaking of 'dark patterns', I absolutely abhor, and insist on never using pop up email request dialogs on the main landing page of our site. My philosophy is never badger a potential customer before they sign up, but rather entice them to engage with me and my product after they have expressed an interest and signed up for a trial. We don't want to 'punish' people for just looking but we don't want them to feel alone if they are looking to become a user. Even then, if they choose to walk away, we stop pestering them after one last attempt to entice them back.

jermaustin1 10y ago
So I quit doing all of this right as intercom.io big (3 years ago now), so I'm jealous you are getting to work with them because I have only heard amazing things from the few industry people I still speak with. Maybe one day I will make my way back into the product world, and I will look to implement them instead of having to roll my own!

iuguy 10y ago

> Is it really about choosing ethics or money? Is there a third option? Something that's worth trying is to tell the reader in that first email how many emails you're going to send and give them the option to unsubscribe now. I'd also consider moving any guides or assistance on getting started emails into a drip feed course that they can opt into. That should reduce the amount of emails they receive while keeping the quality up. For most of us receiving mails, the quality is important. If it's an email we're interested that links to things that are interesting we'll open it and click links (even if there's 5 in a week). If it doesn't, it's just noise. I do an online email course on career hacking using ConvertKit[1]. I'm not really selling anything (I was but had to pull the product) but splitting the onboarding off not only lets you easily gauge interest but reduces the spam. For people who are interested in looking at how this works, you might want to take a look at the course, and of course I'd welcome any feedback by email. [1] - https://www.rawhex.com/hack-your-career/ https://www.rawhex.com/hack-your-career/

pyre 10y ago
> Something that's worth trying is to tell the reader in that first email how many emails you're going to send Somehow I just picture the scene from A Christmas Carol where Jacob Marley is telling Scrooge that he will be visited by 3 ghosts over the course of the night. > "Over the course of the next week, you will be visited by FIVE marketing emails"

marcosdumay 10y ago

It's 5 emails, in a total of 10 days. It's borderline noticeable, and lasts for only a short time. Also, one of them is expected and would be annoying not receiving it. If you don't send anything after those few emails, it's very hard to call them spam. Most people will even like receiving them. By the way, personally, I've got very wary of those personal emails from CEO on sign-up. They are blatant lies, it does not feel right and does steer me away from companies that send them. Does a "Note from the CEO" with a "reply to talk to me" at the end convert any worse?