8 ms·

Bikeshedding

64 points by somenomadicguy 10y ago

smcl 10y ago
I am so glad to have learned the right word to describe this! I've tried to employ the "drunk looking for his keys under the streetlight" metaphor before but was met with confusion and blank faces. Maybe this is an easier to grasp phrase
- coldtea 10y ago
  >I've tried to employ the "drunk looking for his keys under the streetlight" metaphor before but was met with confusion and blank faces. It also deals with another matter as a metaphor. It's about doing what's easier but without effect, over what's effective but difficult. Bikeshedding is about wasting time on non-important decisions. So there's only slight overlap between the two concepts. The "talk about furniture arrangements while there is a hole on the roof" parent mentions is more apt -- but you can also bikeshed without any more pressing matter present.
  - privong 10y ago
    > The "talk about furniture arrangements while there is a hole on the roof" parent mentions The version I've heard is: "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" :)
- mayukh 10y ago
  We've used 're-arranging the furniture while there's a hole in the roof'
- isxek 10y ago
  Maybe this is an easier to grasp phrase Probably depends on the crowd. I mentioned this before during a local Python meetup (a few years ago) and I got the same reaction with your "streetlight" metaphor.
deanCommie 10y ago
Does anyone know how to avoid this anti-pattern in group discussions? I don't think starting from the more important issues is always the answer. Assuming that: * the time for discussion is finite * discussions and meetings expand to fill the time they have (meetings expand to fill the time they have) It follows to me that in many situations it IS good to start with the easy stuff, like the bike shed, to get it out of the way, and then spend the longer period of time all the way to the end on the more significant subject. But what can one do to prevent investing too much time on the bikeshed? Timeboxing? And what happens if your box is over but no decision is made?
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  The only way I discovered is to not work with 'bikeshedding' types. Some people (typically people who contribute little else), have a propensity to do this when placed in leadership positions. They have to put their little mark on everything at the cost of everyone else's time. This I feel is the secret behind a lot of startups kicking incumbents ass in recent years, old school monolithic corporations are full of bikeshedding bullshitters.
  - pawadu 10y ago
    You can't always choose who you can work with. And quite often bikeshedding comes from your boss. I found it more efficient to first make people familiar with the phenomena and when it happens in a meeting just tell them so. Surprising how well it works on most people.
    - cmdrfred 10y ago
      I have not had success with that method. You are probably a better communicator than I.
- awesomerobot 10y ago
  Clearly defined goals (literally write them down on a whiteboard if you can) and a little time management? It's tough. If you've got an hour-long meeting and 30 minutes in you're talking about the color of a button, reestablish the goal of the meeting — "hey, we're halfway through this meeting and we're still stuck on the button color — maybe we should make a decision now or move on" I've found that a lot of bikeshedding ends up being uninformed opinions/bias. If there's no evidence one way or the other it always seems more efficient to just pick one path and do it. Flip a coin, do an A/B test.
crawshaw 10y ago
I am disappointed the Talk:bikeshedding page is empty.
- pawadu 10y ago
  It is important that we have a good discussion going on about this very important issue. I invite everyone to contribute to the talk page. But first, should we use TAB or SPACEs in the talk page?
saltycraig 10y ago
The email that started it all (at least in the software world): http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/bikeshed.html http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/bikeshed.html
- cnvogel 10y ago
  http://bikeshed.com/ http://bikeshed.com/ - with random colors on every reload. Quote: "(If you don't like the way we painted this bikeshed, try bikeshedding.io, or the minimalist shed.bike. Or set up your own? That's the spirit!)"
ableal 10y ago
The original Parkinson's Law book is well worth looking up, and a couple of sequels are not bad either. My favorite piece is probably 'Plans and Plants', already summarized here at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=610761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=610761
digestives 10y ago
http://xkcd.com/1167/ http://xkcd.com/1167/ via https://twitter.com/crell/status/296506190190489600 https://twitter.com/crell/status/296506190190489600
JonnieCache 10y ago
This term always amuses me, because in british parlance "bike shed" is mostly associated with the phrase "behind the bike sheds," the proverbial place where illicit activities take place in the school playground: smoking, pubescent sexual exploration etc. To turn it into a verb seems very racy indeed until you find out what it actually means. EDIT: I think the US equivalent might be "under the bleachers"?
- kough 10y ago
  In case you were looking for confirmation – yes, "under the bleachers" is exactly right, although it's a somewhat dated term at this point. Not sure what the modern equivalent is but at least when I was in highschool (~2010) there really was no way for anyone to spend any time under there except at sporting events, which were very poorly attended.
Walf 10y ago
If you feel like being disheartened, please consult this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern#Examples
ptaipale 10y ago
What I've used to mean the same is "paperclipping" (discussing paper clips). When planning for investments in a corporation, major stakeholders who are clueless about important technologies (e.g. which hardware and software platform to choose) spend their time on discussing where the paper clips in office storage room should be procured, because that is a thing that they can understand, and they can show how they care about even the smallest detail.
Fricken 10y ago
'There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root'. -Thoreau
arielweisberg 10y ago
It's not bike shedding it's code review! There we baked it into our process and gave one party unilateral and unlimited leverage.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
bogomipz 10y ago
This is definitely a great term and one that comes up frequently at work. I would like to mention "yak shaving" as well. Since it seems there isn't a day that goes by at the tech job where there isn't at least some amount of either "bike shedding" or "yak shaving" going on. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yak_shaving https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yak_shaving
roadman 10y ago
In French language: to comb the giraffe.

smcl 10y ago

I am so glad to have learned the right word to describe this! I've tried to employ the "drunk looking for his keys under the streetlight" metaphor before but was met with confusion and blank faces. Maybe this is an easier to grasp phrase

coldtea 10y ago
>I've tried to employ the "drunk looking for his keys under the streetlight" metaphor before but was met with confusion and blank faces. It also deals with another matter as a metaphor. It's about doing what's easier but without effect, over what's effective but difficult. Bikeshedding is about wasting time on non-important decisions. So there's only slight overlap between the two concepts. The "talk about furniture arrangements while there is a hole on the roof" parent mentions is more apt -- but you can also bikeshed without any more pressing matter present.
- privong 10y ago
  > The "talk about furniture arrangements while there is a hole on the roof" parent mentions The version I've heard is: "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" :)
mayukh 10y ago
We've used 're-arranging the furniture while there's a hole in the roof'
isxek 10y ago
Maybe this is an easier to grasp phrase Probably depends on the crowd. I mentioned this before during a local Python meetup (a few years ago) and I got the same reaction with your "streetlight" metaphor.

deanCommie 10y ago

Does anyone know how to avoid this anti-pattern in group discussions? I don't think starting from the more important issues is always the answer. Assuming that: * the time for discussion is finite * discussions and meetings expand to fill the time they have (meetings expand to fill the time they have) It follows to me that in many situations it IS good to start with the easy stuff, like the bike shed, to get it out of the way, and then spend the longer period of time all the way to the end on the more significant subject. But what can one do to prevent investing too much time on the bikeshed? Timeboxing? And what happens if your box is over but no decision is made?

cmdrfred 10y ago
The only way I discovered is to not work with 'bikeshedding' types. Some people (typically people who contribute little else), have a propensity to do this when placed in leadership positions. They have to put their little mark on everything at the cost of everyone else's time. This I feel is the secret behind a lot of startups kicking incumbents ass in recent years, old school monolithic corporations are full of bikeshedding bullshitters.
- pawadu 10y ago
  You can't always choose who you can work with. And quite often bikeshedding comes from your boss. I found it more efficient to first make people familiar with the phenomena and when it happens in a meeting just tell them so. Surprising how well it works on most people.
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    I have not had success with that method. You are probably a better communicator than I.
awesomerobot 10y ago
Clearly defined goals (literally write them down on a whiteboard if you can) and a little time management? It's tough. If you've got an hour-long meeting and 30 minutes in you're talking about the color of a button, reestablish the goal of the meeting — "hey, we're halfway through this meeting and we're still stuck on the button color — maybe we should make a decision now or move on" I've found that a lot of bikeshedding ends up being uninformed opinions/bias. If there's no evidence one way or the other it always seems more efficient to just pick one path and do it. Flip a coin, do an A/B test.

crawshaw 10y ago

I am disappointed the Talk:bikeshedding page is empty.

pawadu 10y ago
It is important that we have a good discussion going on about this very important issue. I invite everyone to contribute to the talk page. But first, should we use TAB or SPACEs in the talk page?

saltycraig 10y ago

The email that started it all (at least in the software world): http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/bikeshed.html http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/bikeshed.html

cnvogel 10y ago
http://bikeshed.com/ http://bikeshed.com/ - with random colors on every reload. Quote: "(If you don't like the way we painted this bikeshed, try bikeshedding.io, or the minimalist shed.bike. Or set up your own? That's the spirit!)"

ableal 10y ago

The original Parkinson's Law book is well worth looking up, and a couple of sequels are not bad either. My favorite piece is probably 'Plans and Plants', already summarized here at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=610761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=610761

digestives 10y ago

http://xkcd.com/1167/ http://xkcd.com/1167/ via https://twitter.com/crell/status/296506190190489600 https://twitter.com/crell/status/296506190190489600

JonnieCache 10y ago

This term always amuses me, because in british parlance "bike shed" is mostly associated with the phrase "behind the bike sheds," the proverbial place where illicit activities take place in the school playground: smoking, pubescent sexual exploration etc. To turn it into a verb seems very racy indeed until you find out what it actually means. EDIT: I think the US equivalent might be "under the bleachers"?

kough 10y ago
In case you were looking for confirmation – yes, "under the bleachers" is exactly right, although it's a somewhat dated term at this point. Not sure what the modern equivalent is but at least when I was in highschool (~2010) there really was no way for anyone to spend any time under there except at sporting events, which were very poorly attended.

Walf 10y ago

If you feel like being disheartened, please consult this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern#Examples

ptaipale 10y ago

What I've used to mean the same is "paperclipping" (discussing paper clips). When planning for investments in a corporation, major stakeholders who are clueless about important technologies (e.g. which hardware and software platform to choose) spend their time on discussing where the paper clips in office storage room should be procured, because that is a thing that they can understand, and they can show how they care about even the smallest detail.

Fricken 10y ago

'There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root'. -Thoreau

arielweisberg 10y ago

It's not bike shedding it's code review! There we baked it into our process and gave one party unilateral and unlimited leverage.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

bogomipz 10y ago

This is definitely a great term and one that comes up frequently at work. I would like to mention "yak shaving" as well. Since it seems there isn't a day that goes by at the tech job where there isn't at least some amount of either "bike shedding" or "yak shaving" going on. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yak_shaving https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yak_shaving

roadman 10y ago

In French language: to comb the giraffe.