7 ms·

> Lawlessness, scams, and dishonesty are endemic in this area. And homelessness. I was disappointed to see hundreds of helpless homeless people, some in horrib

> Lawlessness, scams, and dishonesty are endemic in this area. And homelessness. I was disappointed to see hundreds of helpless homeless people, some in horrible mental state, right there on streets in the middle of huge ivory towers that SV thumps its chest on. It's such a shame! And with young kids coming out of those glass doors flashing gadgets and gizmos at each other, with that certain bay area flair … I mean the collective blindness of the place felt only surreal. It's a personal thing but I guess my family will never be at home in the bay area.

nononosisisi 10y ago
Is like trying to help your drug addict friend get better. No matter what you do if they don't help themselves it is a lost cause. Eventually you just have to keep going with your life and wish them well.
- gfaure 10y ago
  "If they don't help themselves it is a lost cause". In a country where socialism is not a dirty word, this is not necessarily true at all.
  - hueving 10y ago
    In those countries do they imprison people that refuse help? If not, then I don't see how they can do any better with people that refuse to stay clean or refuse help entirely.
    - gfaure 10y ago
      If a homeless person refuses help, it's probably not because they actively want to live an unstable, day-to-day life, not knowing where or what they'll eat tonight. It's because the government has failed them in the past in its attempts to help. Not every government has decided that putting a permanent roof over the heads of anyone who needs it is a bad use of taxpayer's money.
      - hueving 10y ago
        >It's because the government has failed them in the past in its attempts to help. No, this is incorrect. If someone continues to choose getting high over help, it has very little to do with the government failing them. Additionally, homeless people with mental disorders that make them paranoid or forgetful can refuse it regardless of past experiences. >it's probably not because they actively want to live an unstable, day-to-day life, not knowing where or what they'll eat tonight. No, but they may actively want something incompatible (like heroin or cocaine) more.
        gfaure 10y ago
        I would disagree. If someone chooses to choose getting high over getting help, it's a failure of drug policy in that country. The government has still failed them, you may just be blind to how. This is not the only way a country has to be.
        hueving 10y ago
        Show me the government that only governs people without addictions. What you're saying is absurd. Proclivity to addiction is affected by DNA. So you either have to imprison them so they can't have what they want, or deal with the fact that you will have some drug addicts.
  - maverick_iceman 10y ago
    Like Soviet Union?
honkhonkpants 10y ago
The reigning ethos in SV is something very close to nihilism, but we do believe in one thing: property. A homeless or insane person has been assigned a near-zero value by markets and is therefore to be ignored. When the only thing you recognize is the exchange of goods and money, how can you assign any value to a person having neither?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  SV is all flash, no soul.
- MichaelBurge 10y ago
  >> but we do believe in one thing: property I thought SV was the world's hardest place to exercise your property rights? Just try demolishing a single-family house to set up a new low-income Section 8 apartment complex. Even if you wanted to, you couldn't. San Francisco is like the polar opposite of the real-world Rapture you're envisioning it as.
- dang 10y ago
  Please stop posting this sort of intemperate rant to HN. It sheds no light on a difficult social problem like homelessness and turns discussion into a tire fire.
  - honkhonkpants 10y ago
    I don't like metadiscussions, and I can see you have your hands full with this circus of a post, but did you reply to the wrong comment? Mine only has two replies (ex. yours) but dozens of siblings and cousins. If there's a tire fire here, I didn't light it.
    - dang 10y ago
      I'm describing what long experience has shown us that comments like that one do. Sorry for not making that clearer (and thanks for the convivial note about the circus).
coralreef 10y ago
Not that its an excuse, but don't all large cities have homeless or poor people?
- pmarreck 10y ago
  Spotted the guy who's never been to downtown San Francisco ;) It is an order of magnitude worse there than just about anywhere else I've been (and I have traveled a lot)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - coralreef 10y ago
    I stayed in SF for a couple weeks when I interned at a startup. I live in Toronto, we have homeless people here too. So I guess the only real way to solve this is with data?
    - ben_jones 10y ago
      Big Data TM. I hear IBM has enterprise solutions to all of those.
    - escape_goat 10y ago
      I believe that 'worse' in this case must mean that the homeless people are more visible.[1] [1] http://fusion.net/story/148372/san-francisco-homelessness/ http://fusion.net/story/148372/san-francisco-homelessness/
  - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
    Spotted the guy whose never been to downtown LA. It is much worse down south considering the weather is much better. But really, only Alaska is relatively immune from this problem given that they just give homeless people a bus ticket to LA when winter hits.
    - 10y ago
codesterling 10y ago
I want to do the cool things there with there, but I'm glad I'm not there.
wyager 10y ago
Homeless people go to California because the weather is good and the locals are rich. What do you want SF residents to do about it? Giving the homeless more will just lead to more of them moving in.
- facetube 10y ago
  Cold winters can mean death for people who are homeless. It's not a convenience, it's a survival strategy.
  - wyager 10y ago
    No disagreement here. It's a rational decision for a homeless person to move to California, but the locals don't have to be happy about it or encourage them.
tsunamifury 10y ago
You can judge, but SF goes further than any city I've seen to provide services to the homeless. So much so that it's a mild weather Mecca to many. So you can turn up your nose and go back home to a city that likely ships them here or "takes care of it" so you don't see it -- but you are being naive. The poor will always be with us, and we are judged by how we treat them.
- Finbarr 10y ago
  Have you been outside of the US? Coming from Europe, SF is utterly shocking. I've never seen anywhere else like it. Government provides a lot of support for low-income and homeless people in EU.
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    The EU is too big to speak of a one entity. And things are changing too. I lived in the third largest city in Sweden, and when I moved in there were the handful (like, probably less than 5) of homeless beggars that everyone knew. There were probably more homeless but they were sheltered by the state. But by the time I moved out, in front of every supermarket there was a Romanian beggar with her head down. I'll agree SF is definitely on a completely different level though. I've never seen anyone defecate in public outside of SF (and yeah I've been to China)
    - blub 10y ago
      That's probably not what you think. The beggars you saw in front of supermarkets were likely part of a criminal gang and had a handler collecting their money. Should be pretty easy to investigate, arrest, deport them and forbid them to come back.
  - chrischen 10y ago
    Part of the reason there are so many homeless in SF is because the SF government and local charities provide food and shelter. The tourists handing out money doesn't help with attracting them. Much of the panhandling money is used for drugs, as basic needs such as food and shelter are already covered by the government and nonprofits. If you really want to help them, volunteer at a homeless kitchen or directly donate to them. I walk by the local drug dealers in the Tenderloin every day, and all the clientele I've seen are homeless people.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
My understanding is that that's largely because SF is actually a pretty good (or at least "less awful") place to be homeless in, so homeless people from other areas travel or are sent there in hopes of finding a better life. It's apparently a thing for social workers and caregivers in places with drastically inadequate social support (i.e. most of the US) to just stick disabled/mentally ill people on a bus to SF; they'll at least have a better chance there.

nononosisisi 10y ago

Is like trying to help your drug addict friend get better. No matter what you do if they don't help themselves it is a lost cause. Eventually you just have to keep going with your life and wish them well.

gfaure 10y ago
"If they don't help themselves it is a lost cause". In a country where socialism is not a dirty word, this is not necessarily true at all.
- hueving 10y ago
  In those countries do they imprison people that refuse help? If not, then I don't see how they can do any better with people that refuse to stay clean or refuse help entirely.
  - gfaure 10y ago
    If a homeless person refuses help, it's probably not because they actively want to live an unstable, day-to-day life, not knowing where or what they'll eat tonight. It's because the government has failed them in the past in its attempts to help. Not every government has decided that putting a permanent roof over the heads of anyone who needs it is a bad use of taxpayer's money.
    - hueving 10y ago
      >It's because the government has failed them in the past in its attempts to help. No, this is incorrect. If someone continues to choose getting high over help, it has very little to do with the government failing them. Additionally, homeless people with mental disorders that make them paranoid or forgetful can refuse it regardless of past experiences. >it's probably not because they actively want to live an unstable, day-to-day life, not knowing where or what they'll eat tonight. No, but they may actively want something incompatible (like heroin or cocaine) more.
      - gfaure 10y ago
        I would disagree. If someone chooses to choose getting high over getting help, it's a failure of drug policy in that country. The government has still failed them, you may just be blind to how. This is not the only way a country has to be.
        hueving 10y ago
        Show me the government that only governs people without addictions. What you're saying is absurd. Proclivity to addiction is affected by DNA. So you either have to imprison them so they can't have what they want, or deal with the fact that you will have some drug addicts.
- maverick_iceman 10y ago
  Like Soviet Union?

honkhonkpants 10y ago

The reigning ethos in SV is something very close to nihilism, but we do believe in one thing: property. A homeless or insane person has been assigned a near-zero value by markets and is therefore to be ignored. When the only thing you recognize is the exchange of goods and money, how can you assign any value to a person having neither?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
toomuchtodo 10y ago
SV is all flash, no soul.
MichaelBurge 10y ago
>> but we do believe in one thing: property I thought SV was the world's hardest place to exercise your property rights? Just try demolishing a single-family house to set up a new low-income Section 8 apartment complex. Even if you wanted to, you couldn't. San Francisco is like the polar opposite of the real-world Rapture you're envisioning it as.
dang 10y ago
Please stop posting this sort of intemperate rant to HN. It sheds no light on a difficult social problem like homelessness and turns discussion into a tire fire.
- honkhonkpants 10y ago
  I don't like metadiscussions, and I can see you have your hands full with this circus of a post, but did you reply to the wrong comment? Mine only has two replies (ex. yours) but dozens of siblings and cousins. If there's a tire fire here, I didn't light it.
  - dang 10y ago
    I'm describing what long experience has shown us that comments like that one do. Sorry for not making that clearer (and thanks for the convivial note about the circus).

coralreef 10y ago

Not that its an excuse, but don't all large cities have homeless or poor people?

pmarreck 10y ago
Spotted the guy who's never been to downtown San Francisco ;) It is an order of magnitude worse there than just about anywhere else I've been (and I have traveled a lot)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- coralreef 10y ago
  I stayed in SF for a couple weeks when I interned at a startup. I live in Toronto, we have homeless people here too. So I guess the only real way to solve this is with data?
  - ben_jones 10y ago
    Big Data TM. I hear IBM has enterprise solutions to all of those.
  - escape_goat 10y ago
    I believe that 'worse' in this case must mean that the homeless people are more visible.[1] [1] http://fusion.net/story/148372/san-francisco-homelessness/ http://fusion.net/story/148372/san-francisco-homelessness/
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  Spotted the guy whose never been to downtown LA. It is much worse down south considering the weather is much better. But really, only Alaska is relatively immune from this problem given that they just give homeless people a bus ticket to LA when winter hits.
  - 10y ago

codesterling 10y ago

I want to do the cool things there with there, but I'm glad I'm not there.

wyager 10y ago

Homeless people go to California because the weather is good and the locals are rich. What do you want SF residents to do about it? Giving the homeless more will just lead to more of them moving in.

facetube 10y ago
Cold winters can mean death for people who are homeless. It's not a convenience, it's a survival strategy.
- wyager 10y ago
  No disagreement here. It's a rational decision for a homeless person to move to California, but the locals don't have to be happy about it or encourage them.

tsunamifury 10y ago

You can judge, but SF goes further than any city I've seen to provide services to the homeless. So much so that it's a mild weather Mecca to many. So you can turn up your nose and go back home to a city that likely ships them here or "takes care of it" so you don't see it -- but you are being naive. The poor will always be with us, and we are judged by how we treat them.

Finbarr 10y ago
Have you been outside of the US? Coming from Europe, SF is utterly shocking. I've never seen anywhere else like it. Government provides a lot of support for low-income and homeless people in EU.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  The EU is too big to speak of a one entity. And things are changing too. I lived in the third largest city in Sweden, and when I moved in there were the handful (like, probably less than 5) of homeless beggars that everyone knew. There were probably more homeless but they were sheltered by the state. But by the time I moved out, in front of every supermarket there was a Romanian beggar with her head down. I'll agree SF is definitely on a completely different level though. I've never seen anyone defecate in public outside of SF (and yeah I've been to China)
  - blub 10y ago
    That's probably not what you think. The beggars you saw in front of supermarkets were likely part of a criminal gang and had a handler collecting their money. Should be pretty easy to investigate, arrest, deport them and forbid them to come back.
- chrischen 10y ago
  Part of the reason there are so many homeless in SF is because the SF government and local charities provide food and shelter. The tourists handing out money doesn't help with attracting them. Much of the panhandling money is used for drugs, as basic needs such as food and shelter are already covered by the government and nonprofits. If you really want to help them, volunteer at a homeless kitchen or directly donate to them. I walk by the local drug dealers in the Tenderloin every day, and all the clientele I've seen are homeless people.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

My understanding is that that's largely because SF is actually a pretty good (or at least "less awful") place to be homeless in, so homeless people from other areas travel or are sent there in hopes of finding a better life. It's apparently a thing for social workers and caregivers in places with drastically inadequate social support (i.e. most of the US) to just stick disabled/mentally ill people on a bus to SF; they'll at least have a better chance there.