6 ms·

> Telecom companies like Comcast and Verizon "own" the backbone because they built it. In Europe most of the backbone has been built by state-run public compan

by gioele 10y ago

> Telecom companies like Comcast and Verizon "own" the backbone because they built it. In Europe most of the backbone has been built by state-run public companies with public money. Only with the wave of privatization in the 90s the EU backbone has become privately owned (for various weird definitions of "privately owned"). However. When the backbone was publicly owned the "broadband" of the time (ISDN) was available to most of the population, including those living outside the big cities and in rural zones. 20 years later the current broadband (fiber) is available only in selected metropolies. The rest is delegate to "market failure" (official term of the trade). Seeing networks are public infrastructures puts things under a different light. Water, gas, phones and electricity are available everywhere, even where it makes no economic sense, because it makes _human_ sense. Why can't we treat computers networks (access to information) the same? We have been doing it for 40 or so years before the privatizations. After 20 years, why can't we call this privatization experiment failed and go back to the previous state of affairs?

tptacek 10y ago
If you want your Internet service to be as responsive to customers as your gas and electric service is today, I supposed you could declare the experiment "failed". As I pointed out, I'm happier with an Internet I can watch movies and make phone calls on than I am with the one that repeatedly netsplit in the 90s. Incidentally: ISDN was widely available everywhere where there were modern phone-switching networks, because they required very minimal upstream equipment to handle. Essentially, if you had already 5 years ago run copper to a Northern Telecom head unit, you'd basically already deployed ISDN. Every local ISP in the US was able to jam a couple PRIs into some Ascend boxes to provide ISDN just as soon as those boxes were available. I don't think it's reasonable to compare ISDN to last-mile technologies that require new cables and new block-by-block termination equipment to install.
- borkborkbork 10y ago
  Comparing the internet you have in 2016 to the internet that existed in the 1990's is a bit unfair, don't you think? The idea that only markets are capable of delivering innovations or necessary services to the public is debatable. For example, the U.S. government, through DARPA, created countless valuable networking innovations that private companies, such as AT&T, didn't want to touch even when given the opportunity.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    I think if you read the comment carefully you'll see I'm not simply saying "the 'public' EU backbone provided rural ISDN", but rather that I'm making a more subtle point than that, about the nature of ISDN. There's a reason an ISDN BRI provides the rate it does, and a reason why each of its B-channels is 64k: the digital phone network was already channelized that way.
    - borkborkbork 10y ago
      Actually I was replying to your original comment before you edited. The idea that a publicly run internet would not have been able to produce the innovations necessary for Netflix is debatable and betrays a certain political persuasion on your part.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        No, it doesn't. You've fallen victim to the fundamental attribution fallacy, and it's led you to generate a rude remark.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - toss1941 10y ago
    He's saying the task to deploy ISDN in the 1990's was minuscule compared to what is required to roll out fiber to everyone today. It's like comparing government oranges to private Teslas.
    - borkborkbork 10y ago
      Government has been responsible for the largest undertakings in human history. Space flight, nuclear weaponry and energy, particle colliders, etc.
      - tptacek 10y ago
- dublinben 10y ago
  I would love if my internet service was as good as my gas or electric service. Those are both so reliable, that I've never once had to contact customer service. They deliver a standard level of service, according to fair, legally enforced rates. If they ever do have an outage, I'm entitled to pro-rated credits for the service interruption. They will also roll trucks any hour of the day to restore service after major weather incidents, unlike any ISP I've ever had. Honestly, we should start holding the major ISPs to the same standard as our other utilities.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    They're also the beneficiaries of infrastructure which is already built out everywhere and requires only maintenance and occasional repair. It would be great if the same could be said of ISPs. Can it?
  - tptacek 10y ago
    You have much better experience with your utilities than I do with mine. Two days ago, we found out that our gas had been shut off because Nicor's billing system forgot about our auto-billing. Someone came out, shut our gas off, and locked the meter. We paid them, and they informed us they wouldn't be able to roll a truck to turn our gas on for more than a week, despite the fact that the dude they sent to turn our gas off could have knocked on our door (or, for that matter, they could have called) and worked out the billing SNAFU. Erin go so fed up that she picked the lock on the meter; when I called to inform them that I was holding their meter lock in my hand, they sent an "emergency" crew out. The new dude had an account note instructing him not to turn our gas on, despite the fact that our account was current and the billing SNAFU was their fault. He made fun of them and turned our gas back on. Have you ever called to have your electrical service changed? How was that experience for you? I've had that pleasure, too. The other great thing I'll say about our electrical is that only goes down for 12+ hours at a time a couple times a year. Depending on your expectations for electrical service in one of the largest US metro areas, that might be good! I don't like AT&T or Verizon. But I would gleefully hand them my billing and field service work for every other utility I have. I haven't had an AT&T outage I noticed in years. I have never once waited more than a day to get them out to address a problem.
ancap 10y ago
Can you tell me more about this "human sense"? If I build a home on Mars should I be entitled to have some third party provide me with "water, gas, phones and electricity"? A lot of the decisions I personally make are decided by economic factors, even if it is not the primary factor.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by gioele 10y ago

tptacek 10y ago

If you want your Internet service to be as responsive to customers as your gas and electric service is today, I supposed you could declare the experiment "failed". As I pointed out, I'm happier with an Internet I can watch movies and make phone calls on than I am with the one that repeatedly netsplit in the 90s. Incidentally: ISDN was widely available everywhere where there were modern phone-switching networks, because they required very minimal upstream equipment to handle. Essentially, if you had already 5 years ago run copper to a Northern Telecom head unit, you'd basically already deployed ISDN. Every local ISP in the US was able to jam a couple PRIs into some Ascend boxes to provide ISDN just as soon as those boxes were available. I don't think it's reasonable to compare ISDN to last-mile technologies that require new cables and new block-by-block termination equipment to install.

borkborkbork 10y ago
Comparing the internet you have in 2016 to the internet that existed in the 1990's is a bit unfair, don't you think? The idea that only markets are capable of delivering innovations or necessary services to the public is debatable. For example, the U.S. government, through DARPA, created countless valuable networking innovations that private companies, such as AT&T, didn't want to touch even when given the opportunity.
- tptacek 10y ago
  I think if you read the comment carefully you'll see I'm not simply saying "the 'public' EU backbone provided rural ISDN", but rather that I'm making a more subtle point than that, about the nature of ISDN. There's a reason an ISDN BRI provides the rate it does, and a reason why each of its B-channels is 64k: the digital phone network was already channelized that way.
  - borkborkbork 10y ago
    Actually I was replying to your original comment before you edited. The idea that a publicly run internet would not have been able to produce the innovations necessary for Netflix is debatable and betrays a certain political persuasion on your part.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      No, it doesn't. You've fallen victim to the fundamental attribution fallacy, and it's led you to generate a rude remark.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- toss1941 10y ago
  He's saying the task to deploy ISDN in the 1990's was minuscule compared to what is required to roll out fiber to everyone today. It's like comparing government oranges to private Teslas.
  - borkborkbork 10y ago
    Government has been responsible for the largest undertakings in human history. Space flight, nuclear weaponry and energy, particle colliders, etc.
    - tptacek 10y ago
dublinben 10y ago
I would love if my internet service was as good as my gas or electric service. Those are both so reliable, that I've never once had to contact customer service. They deliver a standard level of service, according to fair, legally enforced rates. If they ever do have an outage, I'm entitled to pro-rated credits for the service interruption. They will also roll trucks any hour of the day to restore service after major weather incidents, unlike any ISP I've ever had. Honestly, we should start holding the major ISPs to the same standard as our other utilities.
- throwanem 10y ago
  They're also the beneficiaries of infrastructure which is already built out everywhere and requires only maintenance and occasional repair. It would be great if the same could be said of ISPs. Can it?
- tptacek 10y ago
  You have much better experience with your utilities than I do with mine. Two days ago, we found out that our gas had been shut off because Nicor's billing system forgot about our auto-billing. Someone came out, shut our gas off, and locked the meter. We paid them, and they informed us they wouldn't be able to roll a truck to turn our gas on for more than a week, despite the fact that the dude they sent to turn our gas off could have knocked on our door (or, for that matter, they could have called) and worked out the billing SNAFU. Erin go so fed up that she picked the lock on the meter; when I called to inform them that I was holding their meter lock in my hand, they sent an "emergency" crew out. The new dude had an account note instructing him not to turn our gas on, despite the fact that our account was current and the billing SNAFU was their fault. He made fun of them and turned our gas back on. Have you ever called to have your electrical service changed? How was that experience for you? I've had that pleasure, too. The other great thing I'll say about our electrical is that only goes down for 12+ hours at a time a couple times a year. Depending on your expectations for electrical service in one of the largest US metro areas, that might be good! I don't like AT&T or Verizon. But I would gleefully hand them my billing and field service work for every other utility I have. I haven't had an AT&T outage I noticed in years. I have never once waited more than a day to get them out to address a problem.

ancap 10y ago

Can you tell me more about this "human sense"? If I build a home on Mars should I be entitled to have some third party provide me with "water, gas, phones and electricity"? A lot of the decisions I personally make are decided by economic factors, even if it is not the primary factor.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]