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Just have a look at Europe. Discussions about migration here go from "complaining about genuine policy problems" to "blatant racism" in the span it takes people

by creshal 10y ago

Just have a look at Europe. Discussions about migration here go from "complaining about genuine policy problems" to "blatant racism" in the span it takes people to get slightly drunk, and that's just the start. If I had a nickel for every time I hear random people insulting others as "fucking Jews"… Misogyny is definitely not as bad as it used to be, but it's still everywhere. And in many cases the victims don't report it for whatever reasons.

cloakandswagger 10y ago
I've had the opposite experience: Saying one cross word against open borders or multiculturalism will have you branded as a racist, Nazi, etc. The vast majority of people I've met who challenge these "virtues" aren't frothing hate-mongerers, but their rhetoric naturally becomes more extreme when their questions are immediately dismissed with these ad hominem attacks.
- bluecalm 10y ago
  Interesting that you were downvoted for making a genuine observation about your environment which relevant to the topic. I agree with you by the way. I see much racism in public debate about immigration problems. It's mostly about culture and religion issues and those are very different than racism.
  - cloakandswagger 10y ago
    It's disappointing but unsurprising. Stifling people you disagree with in such a way serves to create the extremism the original comment alludes to, but it feels a lot better than having an open discussion.
  - creshal 10y ago
    > Interesting that you were downvoted for making a genuine observation Equalling "migration" with "open borders" is dishonest and already spinning the discussion before it even starts. I don't blame people for pre-emptively downvoting that. But yes, dehumanization goes both ways. Branding everyone you disagree with as Nazi isn't helping anyone either.
  - pessimizer 10y ago
    I didn't downvote, but the second sentence wasn't an observation, it was an excuse. The way I read the comment, it's saying that when people say things against open borders or multiculturalism, they are accused of being racists. Then they say worse, obviously racist things, but they're just saying them because they were called racists, not because they are racists (who froth.) Therefore, if people wouldn't accuse people of being racists for saying things against open borders and multiculturalism, people wouldn't say racist things.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      > Then they say worse, obviously racist things, but they're just saying them because they were called racists, not because they are racists Or, perhaps, because it is very easy to become angry when one feels oneself unjustly maligned, and anger often betrays one into saying things which are ill considered and do not accurately depict one's genuine opinions or beliefs. Of course, there is a contrary position which holds that such things more accurately characterize those who say them than do the things they say when calm. I can only surmise that people who adhere to this position have never themselves experienced anger.
      - pessimizer 10y ago
        I take a center position that people generally mean what they say, and that other people can't make you say racist things. I also judge people badly (let's be honest, as cowards) who choose to attack the weak when they get frustrated or angry.
        throwanem 10y ago
        Well, I'm certainly not about to argue that it is other than easy to judge people, or that it does not often feel good to do so.
        pessimizer 10y ago
        Just today: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/paul-lepage-resign-racism/498020/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/paul-lep... Maine's Governor Insists the Problem Isn't His Racism—It's Being Called a Racist
tomp 10y ago
That's an issue vastly more complicated than "racism". No matter what "migration" you mean (intra-European or non-European), that's mostly Xenophobia, not racism. Furthermore, often times people have legitimate concerns, such as job losses and incompatible cultural norms, if anything I'd say that these legitimate concerns often get unfairly branded as "racism" just to silence them. Finally, you're probably right that insults and intolerance of religions is common, although I don't see why that should be discouraged - after all, religion is a choice, and disliking it is just as valid as disliking e.g. neo-Nazis and white suprematists.
- creshal 10y ago
  > No matter what "migration" you mean (intra-European or non-European) A little bit of everything. Here in Austria I see people raging against German immigrants (they're stealing our white-collar jobs!), against Hungarian immigrants (they're stealing our blue-collar jobs!), against Romanians (they're stealing our bicycles!); and everyone with the wrong skin colour is treated as second-class citizens (at best) just for the heck of it. > Furthermore, often times people have legitimate concerns, such as job losses and incompatible cultural norms That's what I meant with genuine policy problems. Sometimes it stays at that. But get some people drunk and they start raging about how "those fucking sand-niggers" are genetically inferior and "deserve" getting killed in wars "because the middle east is their fault anyway". > after all, religion is a choice, and disliking it Calling a random person a "fucking hook-nosed jew" because they don't want to lend you money is not criticizing the Jewish religion. It's racism.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dagw 10y ago
  religion is a choice In many parts of the world it really isn't. If your parents where catholic then you are catholic, if your parents where jews then you are a jew, if you parents where muslim then you are a muslim etc. What you (or your parents) actually believe and don't believe in is rarely factors into it.
  - 10y ago
JonnieCache 10y ago
>If I had a nickel for every time I hear random people insulting others as "fucking Jews"… Where do you live?
- creshal 10y ago
  Austria. But it was the same in Switzerland and Germany.

by creshal 10y ago

cloakandswagger 10y ago

I've had the opposite experience: Saying one cross word against open borders or multiculturalism will have you branded as a racist, Nazi, etc. The vast majority of people I've met who challenge these "virtues" aren't frothing hate-mongerers, but their rhetoric naturally becomes more extreme when their questions are immediately dismissed with these ad hominem attacks.

bluecalm 10y ago
Interesting that you were downvoted for making a genuine observation about your environment which relevant to the topic. I agree with you by the way. I see much racism in public debate about immigration problems. It's mostly about culture and religion issues and those are very different than racism.
- cloakandswagger 10y ago
  It's disappointing but unsurprising. Stifling people you disagree with in such a way serves to create the extremism the original comment alludes to, but it feels a lot better than having an open discussion.
- creshal 10y ago
  > Interesting that you were downvoted for making a genuine observation Equalling "migration" with "open borders" is dishonest and already spinning the discussion before it even starts. I don't blame people for pre-emptively downvoting that. But yes, dehumanization goes both ways. Branding everyone you disagree with as Nazi isn't helping anyone either.
- pessimizer 10y ago
  I didn't downvote, but the second sentence wasn't an observation, it was an excuse. The way I read the comment, it's saying that when people say things against open borders or multiculturalism, they are accused of being racists. Then they say worse, obviously racist things, but they're just saying them because they were called racists, not because they are racists (who froth.) Therefore, if people wouldn't accuse people of being racists for saying things against open borders and multiculturalism, people wouldn't say racist things.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    > Then they say worse, obviously racist things, but they're just saying them because they were called racists, not because they are racists Or, perhaps, because it is very easy to become angry when one feels oneself unjustly maligned, and anger often betrays one into saying things which are ill considered and do not accurately depict one's genuine opinions or beliefs. Of course, there is a contrary position which holds that such things more accurately characterize those who say them than do the things they say when calm. I can only surmise that people who adhere to this position have never themselves experienced anger.
    - pessimizer 10y ago
      I take a center position that people generally mean what they say, and that other people can't make you say racist things. I also judge people badly (let's be honest, as cowards) who choose to attack the weak when they get frustrated or angry.
      - throwanem 10y ago
        Well, I'm certainly not about to argue that it is other than easy to judge people, or that it does not often feel good to do so.
        pessimizer 10y ago
        Just today: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/paul-lepage-resign-racism/498020/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/paul-lep... Maine's Governor Insists the Problem Isn't His Racism—It's Being Called a Racist

tomp 10y ago

That's an issue vastly more complicated than "racism". No matter what "migration" you mean (intra-European or non-European), that's mostly Xenophobia, not racism. Furthermore, often times people have legitimate concerns, such as job losses and incompatible cultural norms, if anything I'd say that these legitimate concerns often get unfairly branded as "racism" just to silence them. Finally, you're probably right that insults and intolerance of religions is common, although I don't see why that should be discouraged - after all, religion is a choice, and disliking it is just as valid as disliking e.g. neo-Nazis and white suprematists.

creshal 10y ago
> No matter what "migration" you mean (intra-European or non-European) A little bit of everything. Here in Austria I see people raging against German immigrants (they're stealing our white-collar jobs!), against Hungarian immigrants (they're stealing our blue-collar jobs!), against Romanians (they're stealing our bicycles!); and everyone with the wrong skin colour is treated as second-class citizens (at best) just for the heck of it. > Furthermore, often times people have legitimate concerns, such as job losses and incompatible cultural norms That's what I meant with genuine policy problems. Sometimes it stays at that. But get some people drunk and they start raging about how "those fucking sand-niggers" are genetically inferior and "deserve" getting killed in wars "because the middle east is their fault anyway". > after all, religion is a choice, and disliking it Calling a random person a "fucking hook-nosed jew" because they don't want to lend you money is not criticizing the Jewish religion. It's racism.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dagw 10y ago
religion is a choice In many parts of the world it really isn't. If your parents where catholic then you are catholic, if your parents where jews then you are a jew, if you parents where muslim then you are a muslim etc. What you (or your parents) actually believe and don't believe in is rarely factors into it.
- 10y ago

JonnieCache 10y ago

>If I had a nickel for every time I hear random people insulting others as "fucking Jews"… Where do you live?

creshal 10y ago
Austria. But it was the same in Switzerland and Germany.