6 ms·

Where (in the Western world) are racism and misogyny tolerated?

• creshal 10y ago
  Just have a look at Europe. Discussions about migration here go from "complaining about genuine policy problems" to "blatant racism" in the span it takes people to get slightly drunk, and that's just the start. If I had a nickel for every time I hear random people insulting others as "fucking Jews"… Misogyny is definitely not as bad as it used to be, but it's still everywhere. And in many cases the victims don't report it for whatever reasons.
  • cloakandswagger 10y ago
    I've had the opposite experience: Saying one cross word against open borders or multiculturalism will have you branded as a racist, Nazi, etc. The vast majority of people I've met who challenge these "virtues" aren't frothing hate-mongerers, but their rhetoric naturally becomes more extreme when their questions are immediately dismissed with these ad hominem attacks.
    • bluecalm 10y ago
      Interesting that you were downvoted for making a genuine observation about your environment which relevant to the topic. I agree with you by the way. I see much racism in public debate about immigration problems. It's mostly about culture and religion issues and those are very different than racism.
      • cloakandswagger 10y ago
        It's disappointing but unsurprising. Stifling people you disagree with in such a way serves to create the extremism the original comment alludes to, but it feels a lot better than having an open discussion.
      • creshal 10y ago
        > Interesting that you were downvoted for making a genuine observation Equalling "migration" with "open borders" is dishonest and already spinning the discussion before it even starts. I don't blame people for pre-emptively downvoting that. But yes, dehumanization goes both ways. Branding everyone you disagree with as Nazi isn't helping anyone either.
      • pessimizer 10y ago
        I didn't downvote, but the second sentence wasn't an observation, it was an excuse. The way I read the comment, it's saying that when people say things against open borders or multiculturalism, they are accused of being racists. Then they say worse, obviously racist things, but they're just saying them because they were called racists, not because they are racists (who froth.) Therefore, if people wouldn't accuse people of being racists for saying things against open borders and multiculturalism, people wouldn't say racist things.
        • throwanem 10y ago
          > Then they say worse, obviously racist things, but they're just saying them because they were called racists, not because they are racists Or, perhaps, because it is very easy to become angry when one feels oneself unjustly maligned, and anger often betrays one into saying things which are ill considered and do not accurately depict one's genuine opinions or beliefs. Of course, there is a contrary position which holds that such things more accurately characterize those who say them than do the things they say when calm. I can only surmise that people who adhere to this position have never themselves experienced anger.
          • pessimizer 10y ago
            I take a center position that people generally mean what they say, and that other people can't make you say racist things. I also judge people badly (let's be honest, as cowards) who choose to attack the weak when they get frustrated or angry.
            • throwanem 10y ago
              Well, I'm certainly not about to argue that it is other than easy to judge people, or that it does not often feel good to do so.
              • pessimizer 10y ago
                Just today: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/paul-lepage-resign-racism/498020/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/paul-lep... Maine's Governor Insists the Problem Isn't His Racism—It's Being Called a Racist
  • tomp 10y ago
    That's an issue vastly more complicated than "racism". No matter what "migration" you mean (intra-European or non-European), that's mostly Xenophobia, not racism. Furthermore, often times people have legitimate concerns, such as job losses and incompatible cultural norms, if anything I'd say that these legitimate concerns often get unfairly branded as "racism" just to silence them. Finally, you're probably right that insults and intolerance of religions is common, although I don't see why that should be discouraged - after all, religion is a choice, and disliking it is just as valid as disliking e.g. neo-Nazis and white suprematists.
    • creshal 10y ago
      > No matter what "migration" you mean (intra-European or non-European) A little bit of everything. Here in Austria I see people raging against German immigrants (they're stealing our white-collar jobs!), against Hungarian immigrants (they're stealing our blue-collar jobs!), against Romanians (they're stealing our bicycles!); and everyone with the wrong skin colour is treated as second-class citizens (at best) just for the heck of it. > Furthermore, often times people have legitimate concerns, such as job losses and incompatible cultural norms That's what I meant with genuine policy problems. Sometimes it stays at that. But get some people drunk and they start raging about how "those fucking sand-niggers" are genetically inferior and "deserve" getting killed in wars "because the middle east is their fault anyway". > after all, religion is a choice, and disliking it Calling a random person a "fucking hook-nosed jew" because they don't want to lend you money is not criticizing the Jewish religion. It's racism.
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    • dagw 10y ago
      religion is a choice In many parts of the world it really isn't. If your parents where catholic then you are catholic, if your parents where jews then you are a jew, if you parents where muslim then you are a muslim etc. What you (or your parents) actually believe and don't believe in is rarely factors into it.
      • 10y ago
  • JonnieCache 10y ago
    >If I had a nickel for every time I hear random people insulting others as "fucking Jews"… Where do you live?
    • creshal 10y ago
      Austria. But it was the same in Switzerland and Germany.
• legodt 10y ago
  Been on Twitter recently? Or, even more directly relevant to this site, any tech community?
• mhurron 10y ago
  This little place called everywhere.
• panglott 10y ago
  We have strong norms against overt bigotry now, but actual racism is very common. Go but two generations back, and white supremacism was still a governing ideology in most industrialized democracies. The modern world is not immune to racism; rather, the invention of "races" is an artifact of the development of nationalism in the 17th through 19th centuries, and so racism is a feature distinctive of the modern era.
  • AstralStorm 10y ago
    Before that, the focus was on religions instead. Same principle.
• InclinedPlane 10y ago
  The fact that you, and so many others, don't see it despite it being plain as day is yet more evidence. Sure, racism is a solved problem. Pull my other leg.
  • tomp 10y ago
    Maybe because I'm from Europe (and the native population here is predominantly white)? Although even in the US, I don't see racism as being "tolerated", at most "present and being exterminated".
    • InclinedPlane 10y ago
      Well, here's where things get tricky, because it's difficult to get someone to understand something they don't notice. This is typically what is meant by the term "white privilege". What is actually meant is that someone has a different set of experiences, so they are comparatively blind to experiences that are common to people of other races. This is a very common phenomenon. Most people when they are growing up think that their experiences are universal. That the way their family works is the way everyone else's works, and so on. It's only when they get older that they realize that maybe their experiences have been abnormal, and also that experiences different from one's own are possible, perhaps even commonplace (such as growing up with divorced parents, growing up poor vs. rich, etc.) This is extremely true when it comes to race, because until recently the experiences of people of color have often not been very well publicized. But they absolutely do. If you're black, or brown, or a muslim, your experiences in the developed world are going to be different from those of a white non-muslim. You're going to get stopped for "random" searches when flying more often. You're going to be stopped by the police while driving more often. Your interactions with police will be more tense and less cordial. And so on and so on. These are just facts. In the US whites actually use illegal drugs at a slightly higher rate than blacks. But blacks are stopped more often on suspicion of drug activity, they are prosecuted more often, and they receive much harsher sentences. That's why despite the lower rate of drug use and the lower population, the number of blacks in prison for drug offenses is vastly higher than for whites. If you're white, drugs might as well be legal, as long as you're not transporting kilos of them around. If you're black, you are more than ten times as likely to be incarcerated for drug use than if you're white, much more. That's systemic racism and injustice, and that's just one tiny example. There was a study where job applicants sent in resumes. The names on the resumes were changed, some had "black sounding" names, some had "white sounding" names. The resumes with the white names had a much higher rate of callbacks than those with the black names. There are many, many more examples. To pull one from the headlines. Consider the examples of two different athletes: Ryan Lochte and Colin Kaepernick. Ryan Lochte committed a crime, and the general sentiment among many is "boys will be boys" (despite him being over 30). Kaepernick exercised his 1st amendment rights to make a statement against police brutality, and he has received a torrent of death threats and insults, including many using the n-word. If that doesn't tell you that racism is alive and well in the western world, then I don't know what to tell you. Yes, we've made progress on racism. Yes, being an open, avowed racist often results in swift negative consequences. But that does not define the boundaries of the problem of racism, there is still a lot of very difficult work to be done, our world is far, far removed from one where racism is no longer an issue.