5 ms·

This is, of course, ancient news. If anyone misses the old wargames, I invite you to come to Board Game Geek (aka BGG) [1] and check out the scene. While they

This is, of course, ancient news. If anyone misses the old wargames, I invite you to come to Board Game Geek (aka BGG) [1] and check out the scene. While they cover a lot more than wargames, the wargame community tends to be very active. War games are alive and well, though perhaps a niche hobby. The companies mentioned in the article are still alive and well, in particular, Multi Man Publishing continues to publish games for the Advanced Squad Leader rule set, however irregularly [2]. [1] https://www.boardgamegeek.com/wargames https://www.boardgamegeek.com/wargames [2] http://www.multimanpublishing.com/Products/tabid/58/CategoryID/4/Default.aspx http://www.multimanpublishing.com/Products/tabid/58/Category...

ourmandave 10y ago
I wasn't old enough to appreciate Squad Leader at the time. The difficulty rating was 8 out of 10. And my friends kept buying the expansions which made it worse. Yet I went ahead and bought Magic Realm which was a 9 and never completed a game.
- michaelcampbell 10y ago
  I think I have all the AH Squad Leader expansions, and never finished a game. Precious few started, too. Baggies and baggies full of pieces. I will probably ebay them.
  - ourmandave 10y ago
    The first AH game I got was Luftwaffe. And at the time I thought Monopoly was a time sink...
- syngrog66 10y ago
  I hear you. I avoided Squad Leader and ASL when I first learned of them, partly because I was led to believe they were very complex, unnecessarily so. However later as an adult I took a closer look, especially after MMP won the license and produced the Starter Kit series. And I was amazed at how simple the rules were, the core of them, the main spine. So many common patterns and elements that made it easier to understand and make predictions. Most of the apparent complexity only comes from the fact that there are lots of exceptional situations, edge cases, special predicaments, where ASL does have some rule that lets it be handled and reflected within the mechanics in a way that makes sense in terms of strategic impact. So many things turn into simple D6 or 2D6 roll +/- modifiers, or table column shifts. And when you roll you always want to roll low, the lower the better. And even then the gameplay might seem highly ordered and turn-based, at first glance, it's truly all about trying to simulate the messy real-time, interleaved, fog-of-war nature of real battle. Many rules and elements are about injecting the chrome of war, of history, the superficial feel, but in reality it very often chooses to bias on the side of making it a more fun game, a simple game. I think the Starter Kit series was a brilliant move because it helped to introduce players to that stripped down, central core, the heart of the full rules set. Buy and try SK1, and play a scenario and you won't be disappointed, likely hooked instead. Then you can incrementally widen your rules set and play elements by trying SK2, SK3, etc. and then the full rules binder and modules. I've never seen a WW2 era game with as much modularity and infinite replayability as modern ASL. It's a bit like the LEGO of WW2 games. No gamer should miss getting a taste. I hear you about Magic Realm too!
- georgeecollins 10y ago
  Squad Leader was complicated but it also was incredibly innovative. There wasn't another board game that showed how tanks, artillery, infantry, machine guns and leaders really worked on the battlefield in that era. SL could show you how a well led and well equipped company of German soldiers could hold a village against a less well equipped and well led battalion of Russians, as often happened. Games before this just abstracted out historical differences in the performance of armies. For example, in Third Reich a Germany Infantry division has a higher attack value than a Russian one. Squad Leader explained the historical differences.
jldugger 10y ago
It's kind of interesting how things build on off of others, and yet diverge wildly. Wargaming minis spawned D&D. And while the spell mechanics of MtG were inspired by Cosmic Encounter, the combat is familiar to D&D players, and caught on like wildfire among the RPG community. And MtG in turn has inspired a number of games, beyond simple CCG clones. MtG booster pack drafting inspired 7 Wonders and a number of similar games. Deck customization aspects inspired Dominion and countless other Deck Builder games. The whole CCG aftermarket trading / tournament scene inspired a game called Millenium Blades.
- labster 10y ago
  If we have played better games, it is because we stand on the shoulders of hill giants.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  It's boggling how much video games in general owe to D&D, and how little most videogamers are aware of it.
- panglott 10y ago
  This is a great example of how intellectual property supports and hampers innovation. Board games can be protected by trademark, copyright and patents; patenting game used to be very common (I have a copy of Camelot from 1932 with the patent notice prominently displayed). But these days board game publishers generally don't bother with patents. Dominion could certainly have patented its gameplay; but it wasn't, and so we have dozens and dozens of deckbuilding games pushing forward all kinds of innovations in game design.
- ConroyBumpus 10y ago
  What amazed me was the overlap between serious tournament MtG players and professional poker players. A lot of the mechanics are more transferable than one would initially think.
BurningFrog 10y ago
I played a lot of Squad Leader back in the day, but never took the leap to ASL. These games seem so perfect for online play. Both because you don't need to meet up in a physical place, and because the computer can know and execute all the rules so I don't have to. Does anything like that exist? I've tried to look, but not found anything.
- eropple 10y ago
  It's older, and not a direct port of the rules, but Combat Mission was a rad game that scratched that same itch. (There's a whole series now, but I only ever played the first.)
- cameldrv 10y ago
  The Close Combat series is similar in that it attempts to be a realistic depiction of WWII company level engagements. CC is real-time though, not turn-based, although I see that as an advantage.
  - BurningFrog 10y ago
    All my old Squad Leader buddies live on the other side of the planet (I emigrated), so turn based is essential to me.
- Falkon1313 10y ago
  Systems like Cyberboard and Vassal (which started as Virtual Advanced Squad Leader) were created specifically to allow playing board wargames via email. But to keep them generic enough to work with any game (and to avoid lawsuits), they do not implement the rules. They let you set up and save the state of the game, log dice rolls, playback opponent actions, etc., but it's up to you to remember and enforce the rules. Combat Mission was a PC game similar in feel to Squad Leader. You check status of units, issue orders, then the game plays out a short burst of activity in real time before it halts for you to review and issue new orders. The original is old now, but dirt-cheap on GOG. (There are sequels, but they have DRM.) You might like browsing places like Matrix Games, Slitherine, or HPS Simulations. They have tons of wargames, some of which have the boardgame or miniatures feel. Some computer games go so overboard on details or micromanagement as to have a totally different feel from boardgames, but others are close enough.

ourmandave 10y ago

I wasn't old enough to appreciate Squad Leader at the time. The difficulty rating was 8 out of 10. And my friends kept buying the expansions which made it worse. Yet I went ahead and bought Magic Realm which was a 9 and never completed a game.

michaelcampbell 10y ago
I think I have all the AH Squad Leader expansions, and never finished a game. Precious few started, too. Baggies and baggies full of pieces. I will probably ebay them.
- ourmandave 10y ago
  The first AH game I got was Luftwaffe. And at the time I thought Monopoly was a time sink...
syngrog66 10y ago
I hear you. I avoided Squad Leader and ASL when I first learned of them, partly because I was led to believe they were very complex, unnecessarily so. However later as an adult I took a closer look, especially after MMP won the license and produced the Starter Kit series. And I was amazed at how simple the rules were, the core of them, the main spine. So many common patterns and elements that made it easier to understand and make predictions. Most of the apparent complexity only comes from the fact that there are lots of exceptional situations, edge cases, special predicaments, where ASL does have some rule that lets it be handled and reflected within the mechanics in a way that makes sense in terms of strategic impact. So many things turn into simple D6 or 2D6 roll +/- modifiers, or table column shifts. And when you roll you always want to roll low, the lower the better. And even then the gameplay might seem highly ordered and turn-based, at first glance, it's truly all about trying to simulate the messy real-time, interleaved, fog-of-war nature of real battle. Many rules and elements are about injecting the chrome of war, of history, the superficial feel, but in reality it very often chooses to bias on the side of making it a more fun game, a simple game. I think the Starter Kit series was a brilliant move because it helped to introduce players to that stripped down, central core, the heart of the full rules set. Buy and try SK1, and play a scenario and you won't be disappointed, likely hooked instead. Then you can incrementally widen your rules set and play elements by trying SK2, SK3, etc. and then the full rules binder and modules. I've never seen a WW2 era game with as much modularity and infinite replayability as modern ASL. It's a bit like the LEGO of WW2 games. No gamer should miss getting a taste. I hear you about Magic Realm too!
georgeecollins 10y ago
Squad Leader was complicated but it also was incredibly innovative. There wasn't another board game that showed how tanks, artillery, infantry, machine guns and leaders really worked on the battlefield in that era. SL could show you how a well led and well equipped company of German soldiers could hold a village against a less well equipped and well led battalion of Russians, as often happened. Games before this just abstracted out historical differences in the performance of armies. For example, in Third Reich a Germany Infantry division has a higher attack value than a Russian one. Squad Leader explained the historical differences.

jldugger 10y ago

It's kind of interesting how things build on off of others, and yet diverge wildly. Wargaming minis spawned D&D. And while the spell mechanics of MtG were inspired by Cosmic Encounter, the combat is familiar to D&D players, and caught on like wildfire among the RPG community. And MtG in turn has inspired a number of games, beyond simple CCG clones. MtG booster pack drafting inspired 7 Wonders and a number of similar games. Deck customization aspects inspired Dominion and countless other Deck Builder games. The whole CCG aftermarket trading / tournament scene inspired a game called Millenium Blades.

labster 10y ago
If we have played better games, it is because we stand on the shoulders of hill giants.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
It's boggling how much video games in general owe to D&D, and how little most videogamers are aware of it.
panglott 10y ago
This is a great example of how intellectual property supports and hampers innovation. Board games can be protected by trademark, copyright and patents; patenting game used to be very common (I have a copy of Camelot from 1932 with the patent notice prominently displayed). But these days board game publishers generally don't bother with patents. Dominion could certainly have patented its gameplay; but it wasn't, and so we have dozens and dozens of deckbuilding games pushing forward all kinds of innovations in game design.
ConroyBumpus 10y ago
What amazed me was the overlap between serious tournament MtG players and professional poker players. A lot of the mechanics are more transferable than one would initially think.

BurningFrog 10y ago

I played a lot of Squad Leader back in the day, but never took the leap to ASL. These games seem so perfect for online play. Both because you don't need to meet up in a physical place, and because the computer can know and execute all the rules so I don't have to. Does anything like that exist? I've tried to look, but not found anything.

eropple 10y ago
It's older, and not a direct port of the rules, but Combat Mission was a rad game that scratched that same itch. (There's a whole series now, but I only ever played the first.)
cameldrv 10y ago
The Close Combat series is similar in that it attempts to be a realistic depiction of WWII company level engagements. CC is real-time though, not turn-based, although I see that as an advantage.
- BurningFrog 10y ago
  All my old Squad Leader buddies live on the other side of the planet (I emigrated), so turn based is essential to me.
Falkon1313 10y ago
Systems like Cyberboard and Vassal (which started as Virtual Advanced Squad Leader) were created specifically to allow playing board wargames via email. But to keep them generic enough to work with any game (and to avoid lawsuits), they do not implement the rules. They let you set up and save the state of the game, log dice rolls, playback opponent actions, etc., but it's up to you to remember and enforce the rules. Combat Mission was a PC game similar in feel to Squad Leader. You check status of units, issue orders, then the game plays out a short burst of activity in real time before it halts for you to review and issue new orders. The original is old now, but dirt-cheap on GOG. (There are sequels, but they have DRM.) You might like browsing places like Matrix Games, Slitherine, or HPS Simulations. They have tons of wargames, some of which have the boardgame or miniatures feel. Some computer games go so overboard on details or micromanagement as to have a totally different feel from boardgames, but others are close enough.