8 ms·

The Web is bad and getting worst, not better. I still don't understand why browsers became operating systems.

by nilved 10y ago

fleevy 10y ago
Follow the money
- Noseshine 10y ago
  Which in the case of the web to a large degree means "follow the consumer" (of web content, so including firms; and developers so close to consumers to be the same for this purpose).
nathcd 10y ago
There are clearly a lot of people that share this sentiment, and sometimes I sort of do too. Is there an answer for those who feel this way? A directory of sites that are pure html, no scripting (and maybe no styles)? a next-gen gopher? RSS? the library? Or maybe there isn't an answer?
- textmode 10y ago
  If you want to read the web as nicely formatted text, using the same large, easy to read font for every site, it can be done. If you want to browse sites as lists and make selections from lists like you did on gopher, it can be done. I have done a lot of work over the years on this for myself because this is how I prefer to retrieve, store and consume information. I have not run into many roadblocks. All that javascript and CSS really is optional. I rarely use "modern" browsers for accessing the web. I do use them on private LAN's to access local files, but only because smartphones and tablets force you to use them. On the web, I rewrite pages on the fly and view them with a text-only browser. Or I extract the bits I need from pages. In both cases usually I'm using a stream editor/filter, and sometimes a proxy if I'm modifying packets. Sometimes I put the results into csv or text files, kdb+, or cdb. If I want to start using a "modern" browser I can do that any day at any time. The "modern" browser is always there if and when I need it. No learning curve. Beginners always welcome. But to use the web effectively without using those graphical browsers could take practice for the uninitiated. I have practiced this for many years and it has become like second nature.
  - srpeck 10y ago
    This is why I built Reading Mode as a Chrome extension (https://github.com/srpeck/readingmode https://github.com/srpeck/readingmode) - you can switch from modern browser to HTML only.
  - JadeNB 10y ago
    > But to use the web effectively without using those graphical browsers could take practice for the uninitiated. I have practiced this for many years and it has become like second nature. Any tips? I would love to do this, both from my home computer and, all the more so, from my phone.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    Could you describe your setup in more detail? I've long used Linux, vim, and w3m for various sorts of tasks, some curl and wget as well. Wget is often blocked by sites unless it spoofs a more common browser agent.) I have similar preferences to you, though of late I'm largely using graphical browsers (Firefox by preference, for flexibility, Chrome unfortunately has better performance, though especially on Android, virtually zero configurability. I've been thinking of scrapping much of this, un-rusting my emacs skills and doing something with: * Emacs. * Buffers. * Built-in browser. * Some local on-disk hierarchy essentially reflecting structure of websites I frequently access. Much of the information I access is actually pretty static, and there's a small subset of what I browse that's actually useful to keep. * Extracting just the usful bits from each page. The primary text content and associated graphics, mostly. Dynamic and interactive components are rare, and there I'll likely hit up a graphical browser, treating it more as an applications environment. * Metadata management. A standardised format of recording at least the site, publication date (if known), author (if known), access date, perceived quality, topic tags or categories (possibly a LoCCS hierarchy -- it's more sane than it seems), and a set of flags for issues (clickbait, bullshit, innacurracy, etc.) All this is shades of Vannevar Bush's Memex, though not a strict interpretation. * A ratings and reputation system. What authors, sites, and publishers are or aren't generally credible or high-quality. * Integrated management of multiple document formats: HTML, PDF, ePub, DJVU, Mobi, text, Markdown. * If possible, a presentation mode that's more similar to Pocket than just a monospace text presentation, though that might also work. * Annotations and notes. * Bibliography generation. Emacs strikes me as likely the perfet tool for much of this, with a bunch of built-in support already, from various modes, browsers, tools, Lisp, org-mode, etc. Just rambling....
djsumdog 10y ago
Remember AOL keywords? Facebook pages. Think of how many businesses, groups, etc no longer have websites. They might have a meetup page, but they most definitely have a Facebook Page. If they have a website, it often embeds their Facebook event listing or uses some Wordpress/Drupal plugin to sync it for them. The Internet is more centralized and less distributed than it was in the 1990s.
api 10y ago
Browsers became OSes because existing OSes have a poor security model and a very poor application delivery model. The browser offers an alternative way to ship an app to a user without having to go through the pain and suffering of building, testing, and packaging Windows, Linux, Mac, etc. applications for the end user. We know because we do the latter and it hurts. Bad. Especially if you are targeting a wide customer base on multiple platforms. The pain. Mobile OSes are somewhat better in this regard from a technical point of view, but in place of awful technology they have substituted the app store nightmare. I've dealt with both the Apple app store and the IRS, and the latter has far better customer service. This is partly because vendors wanted total control over the "next" platform, and partly because iOS and Android did not actually solve the security aspect of the OS application model. Instead they punted on the problem by deciding to just gate keep all code and to offer a reduced functionality profile to apps. I am not entirely convinced browsers becoming OSes is a bad thing, and I half suspect that the web is actually an incubator for the next real innovation in the OS and platform space. The browser is at least prototyping an OS capable of rapidly loading and executing untrusted code without instantly melting down or being pwned by the first bit of malicious code that comes by. This is big. Try executing code this promiscuously with Windows, Linux, or Mac, or jail-broken Android or iOS for that matter.
- dcwca 10y ago
  I agree with you completely. The web became an OS because there's a huge demand for cross-platform zero-install software applications that run in a sandbox without dangerous user level access to your machine.
  - jandrese 10y ago
    And if you do need dangerous user or system level access there is always Flash and its everpresent zero days.
    - zwetan 10y ago
      sure there are no browser exploits at all ... Top 50 Products By Total Number Of "Distinct" Vulnerabilities http://www.cvedetails.com/top-50-products.php http://www.cvedetails.com/top-50-products.php #3 Firefox #4 Chrome #7 Internet Explorer

The Web is bad and getting worst, not better. I still don't understand why browsers became operating systems.

by nilved 10y ago

The Web is bad and getting worst, not better. I still don't understand why browsers became operating systems.

fleevy 10y ago

Follow the money

Noseshine 10y ago
Which in the case of the web to a large degree means "follow the consumer" (of web content, so including firms; and developers so close to consumers to be the same for this purpose).

nathcd 10y ago

There are clearly a lot of people that share this sentiment, and sometimes I sort of do too. Is there an answer for those who feel this way? A directory of sites that are pure html, no scripting (and maybe no styles)? a next-gen gopher? RSS? the library? Or maybe there isn't an answer?

textmode 10y ago
If you want to read the web as nicely formatted text, using the same large, easy to read font for every site, it can be done. If you want to browse sites as lists and make selections from lists like you did on gopher, it can be done. I have done a lot of work over the years on this for myself because this is how I prefer to retrieve, store and consume information. I have not run into many roadblocks. All that javascript and CSS really is optional. I rarely use "modern" browsers for accessing the web. I do use them on private LAN's to access local files, but only because smartphones and tablets force you to use them. On the web, I rewrite pages on the fly and view them with a text-only browser. Or I extract the bits I need from pages. In both cases usually I'm using a stream editor/filter, and sometimes a proxy if I'm modifying packets. Sometimes I put the results into csv or text files, kdb+, or cdb. If I want to start using a "modern" browser I can do that any day at any time. The "modern" browser is always there if and when I need it. No learning curve. Beginners always welcome. But to use the web effectively without using those graphical browsers could take practice for the uninitiated. I have practiced this for many years and it has become like second nature.
- srpeck 10y ago
  This is why I built Reading Mode as a Chrome extension (https://github.com/srpeck/readingmode https://github.com/srpeck/readingmode) - you can switch from modern browser to HTML only.
- JadeNB 10y ago
  > But to use the web effectively without using those graphical browsers could take practice for the uninitiated. I have practiced this for many years and it has become like second nature. Any tips? I would love to do this, both from my home computer and, all the more so, from my phone.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Could you describe your setup in more detail? I've long used Linux, vim, and w3m for various sorts of tasks, some curl and wget as well. Wget is often blocked by sites unless it spoofs a more common browser agent.) I have similar preferences to you, though of late I'm largely using graphical browsers (Firefox by preference, for flexibility, Chrome unfortunately has better performance, though especially on Android, virtually zero configurability. I've been thinking of scrapping much of this, un-rusting my emacs skills and doing something with: * Emacs. * Buffers. * Built-in browser. * Some local on-disk hierarchy essentially reflecting structure of websites I frequently access. Much of the information I access is actually pretty static, and there's a small subset of what I browse that's actually useful to keep. * Extracting just the usful bits from each page. The primary text content and associated graphics, mostly. Dynamic and interactive components are rare, and there I'll likely hit up a graphical browser, treating it more as an applications environment. * Metadata management. A standardised format of recording at least the site, publication date (if known), author (if known), access date, perceived quality, topic tags or categories (possibly a LoCCS hierarchy -- it's more sane than it seems), and a set of flags for issues (clickbait, bullshit, innacurracy, etc.) All this is shades of Vannevar Bush's Memex, though not a strict interpretation. * A ratings and reputation system. What authors, sites, and publishers are or aren't generally credible or high-quality. * Integrated management of multiple document formats: HTML, PDF, ePub, DJVU, Mobi, text, Markdown. * If possible, a presentation mode that's more similar to Pocket than just a monospace text presentation, though that might also work. * Annotations and notes. * Bibliography generation. Emacs strikes me as likely the perfet tool for much of this, with a bunch of built-in support already, from various modes, browsers, tools, Lisp, org-mode, etc. Just rambling....

djsumdog 10y ago

Remember AOL keywords? Facebook pages. Think of how many businesses, groups, etc no longer have websites. They might have a meetup page, but they most definitely have a Facebook Page. If they have a website, it often embeds their Facebook event listing or uses some Wordpress/Drupal plugin to sync it for them. The Internet is more centralized and less distributed than it was in the 1990s.

api 10y ago

Browsers became OSes because existing OSes have a poor security model and a very poor application delivery model. The browser offers an alternative way to ship an app to a user without having to go through the pain and suffering of building, testing, and packaging Windows, Linux, Mac, etc. applications for the end user. We know because we do the latter and it hurts. Bad. Especially if you are targeting a wide customer base on multiple platforms. The pain. Mobile OSes are somewhat better in this regard from a technical point of view, but in place of awful technology they have substituted the app store nightmare. I've dealt with both the Apple app store and the IRS, and the latter has far better customer service. This is partly because vendors wanted total control over the "next" platform, and partly because iOS and Android did not actually solve the security aspect of the OS application model. Instead they punted on the problem by deciding to just gate keep all code and to offer a reduced functionality profile to apps. I am not entirely convinced browsers becoming OSes is a bad thing, and I half suspect that the web is actually an incubator for the next real innovation in the OS and platform space. The browser is at least prototyping an OS capable of rapidly loading and executing untrusted code without instantly melting down or being pwned by the first bit of malicious code that comes by. This is big. Try executing code this promiscuously with Windows, Linux, or Mac, or jail-broken Android or iOS for that matter.

dcwca 10y ago
I agree with you completely. The web became an OS because there's a huge demand for cross-platform zero-install software applications that run in a sandbox without dangerous user level access to your machine.
- jandrese 10y ago
  And if you do need dangerous user or system level access there is always Flash and its everpresent zero days.
  - zwetan 10y ago
    sure there are no browser exploits at all ... Top 50 Products By Total Number Of "Distinct" Vulnerabilities http://www.cvedetails.com/top-50-products.php http://www.cvedetails.com/top-50-products.php #3 Firefox #4 Chrome #7 Internet Explorer