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by toomim 10y ago

AndrewKemendo 10y ago
It's more of a neurotic addictive compulsion and ego seeking behavior than something that is desirable as a sense of fulfillment. These neurotic addictive behaviors (checking social sites, compulsively reading random things, chewing tobacco, drinking alcohol, sleeping) dominate most of my non-mandatory, un-allocated time. Everything else is just a yawning void of nothing, including my wife and 3 kids. Not for lack of trying (Open Water SCUBA License, Private Pilots License, Skydiving license, Hit 100 some odd countries traveling, Competitively Cycled/Ran etc...).
- reddytowns 10y ago
  I think you might want to step back and ask yourself what you expect life to offer you and if those expectations are too high. Sounds like a great life, and you seem to be letting the beautiful things slip through the cracks, because you're judging them not good enough.
  - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
    At a certain point you realize that experiences and stuff are equally as meaningless in the end.
    - terryf 10y ago
      In a finite physical universe, nothing has intrinsic meaning. The only meaning anything has, is the meaning that you attribute to that thing. Thus, anything that is meaningful to you, is the most meaningful thing in the universe. No goal is better than any other, because there is no universally defined "better", everything just "is". Therefore, you are free to say that the goal you have chosen is better than any other, and you would be correct, because just by choosing it, you have changed the balance.
      - noobermin 10y ago
        >In a finite physical universe I am pretty existential too, so I agree with you generally...but I'm not sure what this clause has to do with the rest of what you said.
        terryf 10y ago
        - finite: Infinity is weird. It's very hard to make arguments that hold when infinite resources are in the picture. Finite also includes the time dimension. If you have infinite time and/or space, intrinsic meaning may be possible, but I really have no idea. - physical: That there is no other plane of existence to progress towards, heaven or enlightenment or anything else similar to those. - universe: Whatever it is that we inhabit - multiverse, universe, inside of a black hole, we're not quite sure yet as far as I understand the physics (which isn't very far at all unfortunately. It is fascinating though)
        pbhjpbhj 10y ago
        In your second clause i think perhaps you mean materialist[|ic] (or maybe physicalist) not physical. A soul, heaven, or other spiritual entities or spaces, aren't necessarily incompatible with a physical universe.
        terryf 10y ago
        'tis a fair point, thanks.
      - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
        I agree in principal, Hence, why I suggested Camus in my original comment. But what happens when you can't attribute meaning to anything? Do you revert to religion or suicide (Those were the three options for camus)?
        terryf 10y ago
        Yeah, I know that feeling - it is hard to get past it when it happens and it certainly takes a while for me every time it happens. This is certainly not a universal cure, but for me the ideas presented in this ted talk have helped: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy?... So, set a goal and work towards that - but, looking at your profile that suggestion seems trite and silly, because you are and have been doing that for some time. Doing difficult things falls into the same category. My suggestion would be to pick something completely pointless - something that you could easily pay someone to do for you, better than you have time-skill for and then do that. For example, I'm building a house. Fairly big, not huge, wooden. I have no training in it and it has taken 5 years of evenings and weekends so far. Any reasonable construction team would have finished in 6 months and it would have had better quality of work. I love it - it makes me happy to look at the small bit that I finished yesterday and somehow it gives me a sense of purpose. Maybe it's just a distraction - something to keep away the existential dread, but so what, because nothing has intrinsic value, this purpose is the best possible purpose for me.
    - noobermin 10y ago
      terryf has a fantastic comment, but what end are you talking about, death? A good way of figuring out what you value is considering if you die tomorrow, why wouldn't you (assuming you aren't suicidal). If you really don't matter either way then why not just do the thing that feels good?
      - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
        Well that's essentially what I do - with an over current of dread. I think if I could afford it I would probably be a habitual heroin user. From what I read, it seems to push all of the same biochemical "happiness" and "fulfillment" buttons as all of the other relationship/activity/experience things that people like to do, albeit with some side effects.
        goldenkey 10y ago
        Hahaha. Easily said by someone who has never done opiates. Drugs aren't the creme de la creme either. Nothing grand stays grand. Drugs come with tolerance and general malaise.
        icebraining 10y ago
        They do, for a few minutes; the rest of the time, everything becomes even worse. And the experience is never quite like the first times, even by pushing up the doses. At least, that's what the users and ex-users I've known describe. Personally, I wouldn't trade even a life of quiet desperation for that.
        neverknowsbest 10y ago
        Other replies were a little salty, and I can only say from personal experience------- but the awareness that you're out of it takes away some of the sanctuary of being high... especially if you're even moderately comfortable (in life, in mind, etc). Feels like you didn't come by it honest, and ruins it some. On the other hand, if you're stuck in a shithole with a metric tonne of inner demons, it's pretty much tops. Contentment, opiates. Happiness... like that innocent 'AHHHHH TOMORROW'S CHRISTMAS!' joy, I'd say MDMA instead
      - 10y ago
    - whybroke 10y ago
      'Realize' is a strong claim, experiences may indeed be meaningless or they may not be. How could anyone ever prove one way or another? But if one could be convinced they were indeed meaningful, it might provide an avenue for happiness. May I ask is it possible you desire something to desire?
      - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
        is it possible you desire something to desire? That's an interesting philosophical ouroboros.
        whybroke 10y ago
        Yes but it's also a practical psychological question. A person can come to a mental state where nothing in life interests them yet they wish there was something they enjoyed. So, although possibly mundane, there is a point of view where the question "does anything in life have meaning" is less interesting than the question "is everything ok".
    - reddytowns 10y ago
      This is exactly what I'm talking about. We are just biological organisms evolved over millions of years to simply continue the human race. Why would you expect to find meaning?
    - nazgob 10y ago
      Could you elaborate? I'm in a place where stuff does not matter anymore (never did actually) and I try to focus on experiences. Is that path also a mistake?
      - dawson 10y ago
        If nothing matters to you, there are no mistakes.
      - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
        Dawson had an interesting response. I can't give you an answer. Maybe it will for you, maybe it won't. Beats not trying I suppose.
- coldtea 10y ago
  So, a living cushy enough to not be impressed with anything?
  - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
    I have no idea, maybe? I know that I've lived on the other side of it - growing up working poor, basically homeless from ages 9-11 and then gritting through over a decade of eating shit in the military. Seeing combat helps put things in perspective to the immediate now, but that only goes so far as you just realize that there are amazing people that have had lives "cut short" unnecessarily and that there was no real purpose to it.
- MrQuincle 10y ago
  Thanks for your honesty. If you would take some time and explain what it is that attracts you in Camus writings, maybe I'll understand you better.
  - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
    Simply the idea that in the absence of universal meaning, it is the individual that must create meaning. It's along the same idea of what Thompson is writing about. The downside of this approach is if the firmament for what you created meaning from crumbles or never really materializes, leaving a void.
    - schizoidboy 10y ago
      I really appreciate (and am very fascinated by) your extreme honesty in this thread. I've read Camus twice. The first time I read The Stranger, I took away meaninglessness, in the sense that existentialism seemed true. The second time, I nearly threw up (no, I wasn't reading Nausea :-D), but in the sense that I don't think I've ever felt anything was so absolutely evil and wrong, and existentialism false. I can't explain this in a philosophical way, and it may be a delusional and biased opinion given my life experiences between the two readings, but I think observing intuitions does hint at universal meaning. Intuitions might be intellectual observations of objective truths no different, in principle, from observations of atoms, or reason itself.
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      Reading this thread, and resonating with much of what you say, may I suggest maybe that it's not the meaning or a meaning, but simply the search for meaning itself (which I realise was the title of Viktor Frankl's book) that might offer some structure. I don't know if it's our brain wiring, chemistry, experiences, psychological development path dependencies, or what, but I'm pretty convinced that human brains are pattern-seeking systems, and finding and establishing patterns, ordering our universes, is one fundamental drive. It also turns out that that's what I've been directly and principally focusing on for the past few years, mostly because I can't not. Several of the activities and compulsions you mentioned above strike me as behaviors which feed the brain's reward systems fairly directly (drugs, alcohol, sex, extreme activities), and your combat and other experiences may also affect that -- not judgement or anything, just mapping for me of "what does the brain seek, how does it work, how is it itself re-shaped by experiences?". The advantage of taking a shortcut is to get to a destination faster. The advantage of taking the long way around, or exploring a space, is often to get a far stronger sense of the interconnections within that space. I thrive on connections, myself, so that has appeal. No idea how this strikes you, but offered for consideration.
- jknoepfler 10y ago
  Try getting good at something you're bad at, like, for example, appreciating your life and the lives of those around you. "Yawning void of nothing" is a pretty hilariously inaccurate description of a family and all the life experiences you describe. I would experiment with the hypothesis that perceiving value and experiencing it as such are skills you lack but others possess, that may be improved through deliberate practice.
  - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
    I would experiment with the hypothesis that perceiving value and experiencing it as such are skills you lack but others possess No experimentation necessary, it's blatantly clear that's the case. that may be improved through deliberate practice Perhaps. Or maybe it's just trying to distract yourself from reality through what are commonly accepted "values." Hard to know. I read all those studies about "happiness" coming from great relationships, and family etc... None of them question why happiness is a virtue - it's as though it's implied that hedonism qua epicureanism is preferential. That's what I can't get past.
    - taurath 10y ago
      One could look at it as a loss or lack of a sense - would incredibly tasty food seem all that worthwhile to someone with no taste buds? Does the fact that people can taste good food mean they will automatically become obese?
    - Fraterkes 10y ago
      Could you please expand on the last paragraph? I think about happiness a lot lately, and it seems like you have some intetesting thoughts.
      - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
        There is an unending amount that has been written about measuring happens and finding happiness etc... All of it seems to boil down to what I would consider "hedonism with a mortgage." The focus is on "lasting happiness" with relationships and experiences being there paramount, and de-emphasizes material accumulation and intoxication. Nothing ever asks the question "why be happy anyway?" Seems like it's as bad of a goal as any, but it's how our biological systems create action.
- et-al 10y ago
  > Open Water SCUBA License, Private Pilots License, Skydiving license, Hit 100 some odd countries traveling, Competitively Cycled/Ran etc... Genuinely curious: why did you pursue those things listed, and did you enjoy them? Or was it to check a ticklist? Also, I've assumed you've been on a sex binge before? Nothing came out of that?
  - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
    why did you pursue those things listed, and did you enjoy them? Or was it to check a ticklist? I thought I would, so I started. Never really did, but kept doing it assuming that if I got better at it then it would become enjoyable. Never happened. I've assumed you've been on a sex binge before? Nothing came out of that? Three kids! But seriously...yes 2005-6 was basically that. But no, those kind of serotonin binges are short lived and tend to be tolerance inducing - meaning you need more to get a bigger enjoyment "bump," at least that's what happened in my case and those are generally more destructive and risky than the benefits.
    - brokenmachine 10y ago
      Do you play any sports? Personally I find the pursuit of mastery in my chosen sport very meditative, and it also offers the right amount of social contact for me. If you get along with your opponents or teammates, you can chat with them during the match, otherwise I just concentrate on my game and try to win every single point. Even when I lose, I always have a list of things I've done well during the match and a list of things that I need to work on. And if you have some metrics by which you can see improvement, there's a sense of satisfaction that comes from seeing that improvement as well.
- firstworldman 10y ago
  Can you imagine what it's like to be on the other side of you? I don't know you, and I wouldn't presume to know anything about you other than what you've revealed in your comments, but what I can say is that you've been handed enough lego blocks to build anything you want to, and it seems like you've set them aside because they're not the specific blocks that you had in mind to build the thing that you envisioned at some point in the past. No one automatically receives happiness. But you have an obligation to work on yourself, to do better than you seem to be doing, at building a happy self out of the life that you've made. That obligation is a result of choices you've made to build a family. Like it or not, you owe it to your wife and children to do the extra work of finding the meaning and sense of significance that is absolutely there waiting to be uncovered by you, and put to use by you. All of the extrinsic life experiences you've mentioned in your comments do not entitle you to wait for something to click, to be more than a 'yawning void of nothing'. If what you're talking about is something that you face no matter how many good, wise, smart moves that you make, then you may need to face the reality that you need treatment for depression or some other issue. No amount of travel or physical trials that you've put yourself through can supplant the reality that you can build for yourself by simply looking inward. In fact, it seems as though by constantly abstracting the search into various physical or worldly concerns, you've done the opposite. Happiness and fulfillment are moving targets. Personally, I suspect that I may never get all the way there. But I've spent some time on the road you're describing, and I know it's a dead end road. It's ego, it's self-indulgence, it's blame, it's a withering loneliness that makes you a small island, one that can be described in just a few seconds with cliches, easily traversed by foot, and forgotten or ignored by others. Whether or not you're clinically depressed, you should probably work on the quality of your relationships. Are there people that you can authentically connect with? If not, find them. They're out there. Are there people with whom your connection leaves you feeling bad or more isolated? Get rid of them. Are there people that you keep trying to connect with but it doesn't happen? Stop trying, and refocus your energy on authentic connections. Are there superficial connections that satisfy some social or validating urge that you have? Figure out whether your relationships with those people can be evolved into authentic, meaningful connections or not, and work on the good ones and discard the bad ones. It's an absolute tragedy to waste all of the time and beautiful experiences and memories that you could be accumulating with all of the people in your life, for lack of addressing a few relatively simple and totally fixable issues.
- dsego 10y ago
  Sounds familiar. Maybe a personality disorder, something I am wondering about myself as well.
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    Oh no, no disorder - just life. There is no external meaning, so whatever you decide is it. If you don't decide on anything it's not a disorder: Maybe there just is no good reason to decide on something. In novels like LOTR or war movies life is made meaningful by letting the environment dictate your choice, i.e. limiting your options severely. The paradox of choice shows itself on more than making it tougher to select the right brand of strawberry jam out of 20... :) I have chosen to use a little bit of chemistry to view life. You don't have chemical reactions where every single molecule reacts. It's a probabilistic model: You throw them all into the pot, and then chance dictates that the right molecules actually meet, which is a function of how quickly they move around (increases chances of meeting your destiny to combine with others into the product), how many there are, etc. To nature, we are just like those molecules. Whether we meet conditions where we can combine fruitfully depends - and on A LOT more variables than in a simple chemical reaction. And it gets worse! Because the complexity of our solutions keeps increasing! Which means it gets harder and harder to find the right conditions (which includes the right people) for all to combine. Take Einstein and Newton for example. What is overlooked that without their environment, which includes society and hundreds of people they were in contact with, tens of thousands when also counting indirect connections, was essential. You can throw a protein into a soup and nothing happens, only when the exactly right conditions and exactly the appropriate other molecules are present will something happen. So I don't worry about it too much. I see myself as part of a big probabilistic thing. I am ready and somewhat searching for "my" right conditions, but that is all I'm actually supposed to do by nature. So if I don't find them I just have a good time before it all ends (in my case that does not mean partying). Somewhat related, from a cartoonist: - http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102965026826/goals-are-for-losers-passion-is-bull http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102965026826/goals-are-for-lose... - http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102964992706/goals-vs-systems http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102964992706/goals-vs-systems I added the links for the parts about "system vs. goal - why goals are bad" (I don't want to touch that "you have limited willpower" thing with a ten foot pole, or the simplistic nutrition advice that is only an aside anyway). This goes along nicely with what I mean, if you can see it. > Goals work great for simple situations. But the world is rarely simple these days. > You don’t know what your career will look like in a year. You don’t know what the > economy will be doing, or which new technologies will hit the scene. Your personal > life is just as unpredictable. The future is a big ball of complexity if you look > out far enough. And that means your odds of picking the one best goal for you are > slim, and the odds of achieving it are even slimmer, because everything is a moving > target. > ... (Read the 1st link, that's just the introduction.) > And while you’re at it, stop worrying about whether you have enough passion for > success. Passion comes from success; success doesn’t come from passion. EDIT: I found that Scott Adams has been linked to by others too, this exact same thing, "systems vs. goals".
- oli5679 10y ago
  If you're competitive and come from a technical background, you might enjoy playing chess?
- mr_overalls 10y ago
  The thrill-seeking and "yawning void of nothing" are a bit concerning. Have you ever looked at the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder? http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/dxc-20198978 http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-per...
  - njloof 10y ago
    Please don't try to diagnose people on the Internet.
    - jshevek 10y ago
      I agree strongly that trying to diagnose people of the internet is unhelpful behavior. However, from the tone of Andrew's comments on this page, it would seem he is interested in improving the quality of his experience of life by seeking greater self understanding. I take the parent comment as merely the offering of yet another possibly helpful direction of inquiry for Andrew, and not an attempt to diagnose.
- genegc2 10y ago
  In my experience, there is no joy without faith.
  - ajuc 10y ago
    In my experience there is.
    - genegc2 10y ago
      That's certainly equally valid. But my brief comment was meant to also be a humble suggestion of another place to look - another thing worth trying. It's a viewpoint that definitely seems to be in the minority in this forum, but it's an important one to consider. A couple more ideas worth considering: - Coming to a place of faith starts like everything; it begins with the desire to have faith. - Consider the possibility that reason and faith are not mutually exclusive, but actually complementary (just give that concept a chance before dismissing it - it has a very strong intellectual history)
      - tasuki 10y ago
        A faith in what? One definition of faith found on the internet: "Belief not supported by evidence or reason, but assumption alone." I have seen many people finding happiness and/or purpose in believing various things not supported by evidence or reason, and have always wondered: how to choose which of these I should believe?
        triangleman 10y ago
        Start small. I am going to refer you to some scripture but I am not asking you to accept it a priori as truth, only to investigate whether there may be any truth in it. Hebrews 11:6 says that he who comes to God "must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him". Essentially what I am asking you to believe is the truth of "seek and ye shall find"... that it is possible to find, provided that you seek. I am not telling you what you will find, how you will find it, what it will look like or sound like, etc., but only that there is something waiting to be found. Then if you take some steps towards God, you will be rewarded and you will learn a little bit about faith Again I am not going to presume I know exactly what those steps are for you but I will tell you I believe with all my heart that there ARE steps you can take, and even if you take the wrong steps, as long as you are seeking God I believe that he will reward you for your efforts, if only by correcting you from your misguided path. I hope this has been helpful. God bless.
- NikolaeVarius 10y ago
  Hey man, I feel the exact sane way. Though I usually don't care enough to actually get Licenses and stuff, because I don't give enough of a damn to get them. I've done tons of extremely stupid things just to do them, but I genuinely don't care or really give a shit. They're just "things" that I've done. I've never really understood how people genuinely enjoy things like skiing, hiking, skydiving. Ive done them just fine and meh.
  - the_nozzle 10y ago
    .. exactly - you have done them just fine - but have you tried getting good at any of those activities ? I ski and jump competitively (on the bush league level) and I can honestly say that I did not enjoy either until I devoted a shitload of time and money to get decent .
dionidium 10y ago
“Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained; and the restrainer or reason usurps its place & governs the unwilling. And being restrain'd it by degrees becomes passive till it is only the shadow of desire.” -- William Blake
ue_ 10y ago
This is an interesting concept, and I think that desire has two faces: the first face of desire is desire driven for greed and aversion and delusion, as described in Buddhism. Principally, desire for becoming, desire for non-becoming and desire for sensual enjoyment (i.e enjoyment via our six senses, counting the intellect as a sensor and ideas being the objects we sense with it), as is taught in Buddhism. The second kind of desire is that which you do not attach to. The outcome of these desires, whether accomplishing what you want or not, does not affect your mind. You don't crave these outcomes, or thirst for them. In my opinion the distinction between "good" and "bad" desire isn't nearly as important as the distinction between what causes suffering and what alleviates suffering. Sense pleasures cause suffering when we attach to them. AndrewKemendo's problem lies in the lack of contentedness, not lack of happiness. No matter how many sense pleasures we choose to indulge in, they are all impermanent and unstable, all ending, all unsafe. The entirety of a mountain of gold, of solid bullion: even twice that wouldn't suffice for one person. Knowing this, live evenly, in tune with the contemplative life. When you see stress, and from where it comes, how can you incline to sensual pleasures? Knowing acquisition to be a bond in the world, train for its subduing. - The Buddha (SN 4.20) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn04/sn04.020.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn04/sn04.020.tha...

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by toomim 10y ago

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It's more of a neurotic addictive compulsion and ego seeking behavior than something that is desirable as a sense of fulfillment. These neurotic addictive behaviors (checking social sites, compulsively reading random things, chewing tobacco, drinking alcohol, sleeping) dominate most of my non-mandatory, un-allocated time. Everything else is just a yawning void of nothing, including my wife and 3 kids. Not for lack of trying (Open Water SCUBA License, Private Pilots License, Skydiving license, Hit 100 some odd countries traveling, Competitively Cycled/Ran etc...).

reddytowns 10y ago
I think you might want to step back and ask yourself what you expect life to offer you and if those expectations are too high. Sounds like a great life, and you seem to be letting the beautiful things slip through the cracks, because you're judging them not good enough.
- AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  At a certain point you realize that experiences and stuff are equally as meaningless in the end.
  - terryf 10y ago
    In a finite physical universe, nothing has intrinsic meaning. The only meaning anything has, is the meaning that you attribute to that thing. Thus, anything that is meaningful to you, is the most meaningful thing in the universe. No goal is better than any other, because there is no universally defined "better", everything just "is". Therefore, you are free to say that the goal you have chosen is better than any other, and you would be correct, because just by choosing it, you have changed the balance.
    - noobermin 10y ago
      >In a finite physical universe I am pretty existential too, so I agree with you generally...but I'm not sure what this clause has to do with the rest of what you said.
      - terryf 10y ago
        - finite: Infinity is weird. It's very hard to make arguments that hold when infinite resources are in the picture. Finite also includes the time dimension. If you have infinite time and/or space, intrinsic meaning may be possible, but I really have no idea. - physical: That there is no other plane of existence to progress towards, heaven or enlightenment or anything else similar to those. - universe: Whatever it is that we inhabit - multiverse, universe, inside of a black hole, we're not quite sure yet as far as I understand the physics (which isn't very far at all unfortunately. It is fascinating though)
        pbhjpbhj 10y ago
        In your second clause i think perhaps you mean materialist[|ic] (or maybe physicalist) not physical. A soul, heaven, or other spiritual entities or spaces, aren't necessarily incompatible with a physical universe.
        terryf 10y ago
        'tis a fair point, thanks.
    - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
      I agree in principal, Hence, why I suggested Camus in my original comment. But what happens when you can't attribute meaning to anything? Do you revert to religion or suicide (Those were the three options for camus)?
      - terryf 10y ago
        Yeah, I know that feeling - it is hard to get past it when it happens and it certainly takes a while for me every time it happens. This is certainly not a universal cure, but for me the ideas presented in this ted talk have helped: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy?... So, set a goal and work towards that - but, looking at your profile that suggestion seems trite and silly, because you are and have been doing that for some time. Doing difficult things falls into the same category. My suggestion would be to pick something completely pointless - something that you could easily pay someone to do for you, better than you have time-skill for and then do that. For example, I'm building a house. Fairly big, not huge, wooden. I have no training in it and it has taken 5 years of evenings and weekends so far. Any reasonable construction team would have finished in 6 months and it would have had better quality of work. I love it - it makes me happy to look at the small bit that I finished yesterday and somehow it gives me a sense of purpose. Maybe it's just a distraction - something to keep away the existential dread, but so what, because nothing has intrinsic value, this purpose is the best possible purpose for me.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    terryf has a fantastic comment, but what end are you talking about, death? A good way of figuring out what you value is considering if you die tomorrow, why wouldn't you (assuming you aren't suicidal). If you really don't matter either way then why not just do the thing that feels good?
    - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
      Well that's essentially what I do - with an over current of dread. I think if I could afford it I would probably be a habitual heroin user. From what I read, it seems to push all of the same biochemical "happiness" and "fulfillment" buttons as all of the other relationship/activity/experience things that people like to do, albeit with some side effects.
      - goldenkey 10y ago
        Hahaha. Easily said by someone who has never done opiates. Drugs aren't the creme de la creme either. Nothing grand stays grand. Drugs come with tolerance and general malaise.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        They do, for a few minutes; the rest of the time, everything becomes even worse. And the experience is never quite like the first times, even by pushing up the doses. At least, that's what the users and ex-users I've known describe. Personally, I wouldn't trade even a life of quiet desperation for that.
      - neverknowsbest 10y ago
        Other replies were a little salty, and I can only say from personal experience------- but the awareness that you're out of it takes away some of the sanctuary of being high... especially if you're even moderately comfortable (in life, in mind, etc). Feels like you didn't come by it honest, and ruins it some. On the other hand, if you're stuck in a shithole with a metric tonne of inner demons, it's pretty much tops. Contentment, opiates. Happiness... like that innocent 'AHHHHH TOMORROW'S CHRISTMAS!' joy, I'd say MDMA instead
    - 10y ago
  - whybroke 10y ago
    'Realize' is a strong claim, experiences may indeed be meaningless or they may not be. How could anyone ever prove one way or another? But if one could be convinced they were indeed meaningful, it might provide an avenue for happiness. May I ask is it possible you desire something to desire?
    - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
      is it possible you desire something to desire? That's an interesting philosophical ouroboros.
      - whybroke 10y ago
        Yes but it's also a practical psychological question. A person can come to a mental state where nothing in life interests them yet they wish there was something they enjoyed. So, although possibly mundane, there is a point of view where the question "does anything in life have meaning" is less interesting than the question "is everything ok".
  - reddytowns 10y ago
    This is exactly what I'm talking about. We are just biological organisms evolved over millions of years to simply continue the human race. Why would you expect to find meaning?
  - nazgob 10y ago
    Could you elaborate? I'm in a place where stuff does not matter anymore (never did actually) and I try to focus on experiences. Is that path also a mistake?
    - dawson 10y ago
      If nothing matters to you, there are no mistakes.
    - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
      Dawson had an interesting response. I can't give you an answer. Maybe it will for you, maybe it won't. Beats not trying I suppose.
coldtea 10y ago
So, a living cushy enough to not be impressed with anything?
- AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  I have no idea, maybe? I know that I've lived on the other side of it - growing up working poor, basically homeless from ages 9-11 and then gritting through over a decade of eating shit in the military. Seeing combat helps put things in perspective to the immediate now, but that only goes so far as you just realize that there are amazing people that have had lives "cut short" unnecessarily and that there was no real purpose to it.
MrQuincle 10y ago
Thanks for your honesty. If you would take some time and explain what it is that attracts you in Camus writings, maybe I'll understand you better.
- AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  Simply the idea that in the absence of universal meaning, it is the individual that must create meaning. It's along the same idea of what Thompson is writing about. The downside of this approach is if the firmament for what you created meaning from crumbles or never really materializes, leaving a void.
  - schizoidboy 10y ago
    I really appreciate (and am very fascinated by) your extreme honesty in this thread. I've read Camus twice. The first time I read The Stranger, I took away meaninglessness, in the sense that existentialism seemed true. The second time, I nearly threw up (no, I wasn't reading Nausea :-D), but in the sense that I don't think I've ever felt anything was so absolutely evil and wrong, and existentialism false. I can't explain this in a philosophical way, and it may be a delusional and biased opinion given my life experiences between the two readings, but I think observing intuitions does hint at universal meaning. Intuitions might be intellectual observations of objective truths no different, in principle, from observations of atoms, or reason itself.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    Reading this thread, and resonating with much of what you say, may I suggest maybe that it's not the meaning or a meaning, but simply the search for meaning itself (which I realise was the title of Viktor Frankl's book) that might offer some structure. I don't know if it's our brain wiring, chemistry, experiences, psychological development path dependencies, or what, but I'm pretty convinced that human brains are pattern-seeking systems, and finding and establishing patterns, ordering our universes, is one fundamental drive. It also turns out that that's what I've been directly and principally focusing on for the past few years, mostly because I can't not. Several of the activities and compulsions you mentioned above strike me as behaviors which feed the brain's reward systems fairly directly (drugs, alcohol, sex, extreme activities), and your combat and other experiences may also affect that -- not judgement or anything, just mapping for me of "what does the brain seek, how does it work, how is it itself re-shaped by experiences?". The advantage of taking a shortcut is to get to a destination faster. The advantage of taking the long way around, or exploring a space, is often to get a far stronger sense of the interconnections within that space. I thrive on connections, myself, so that has appeal. No idea how this strikes you, but offered for consideration.
jknoepfler 10y ago
Try getting good at something you're bad at, like, for example, appreciating your life and the lives of those around you. "Yawning void of nothing" is a pretty hilariously inaccurate description of a family and all the life experiences you describe. I would experiment with the hypothesis that perceiving value and experiencing it as such are skills you lack but others possess, that may be improved through deliberate practice.
- AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  I would experiment with the hypothesis that perceiving value and experiencing it as such are skills you lack but others possess No experimentation necessary, it's blatantly clear that's the case. that may be improved through deliberate practice Perhaps. Or maybe it's just trying to distract yourself from reality through what are commonly accepted "values." Hard to know. I read all those studies about "happiness" coming from great relationships, and family etc... None of them question why happiness is a virtue - it's as though it's implied that hedonism qua epicureanism is preferential. That's what I can't get past.
  - taurath 10y ago
    One could look at it as a loss or lack of a sense - would incredibly tasty food seem all that worthwhile to someone with no taste buds? Does the fact that people can taste good food mean they will automatically become obese?
  - Fraterkes 10y ago
    Could you please expand on the last paragraph? I think about happiness a lot lately, and it seems like you have some intetesting thoughts.
    - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
      There is an unending amount that has been written about measuring happens and finding happiness etc... All of it seems to boil down to what I would consider "hedonism with a mortgage." The focus is on "lasting happiness" with relationships and experiences being there paramount, and de-emphasizes material accumulation and intoxication. Nothing ever asks the question "why be happy anyway?" Seems like it's as bad of a goal as any, but it's how our biological systems create action.
et-al 10y ago
> Open Water SCUBA License, Private Pilots License, Skydiving license, Hit 100 some odd countries traveling, Competitively Cycled/Ran etc... Genuinely curious: why did you pursue those things listed, and did you enjoy them? Or was it to check a ticklist? Also, I've assumed you've been on a sex binge before? Nothing came out of that?
- AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  why did you pursue those things listed, and did you enjoy them? Or was it to check a ticklist? I thought I would, so I started. Never really did, but kept doing it assuming that if I got better at it then it would become enjoyable. Never happened. I've assumed you've been on a sex binge before? Nothing came out of that? Three kids! But seriously...yes 2005-6 was basically that. But no, those kind of serotonin binges are short lived and tend to be tolerance inducing - meaning you need more to get a bigger enjoyment "bump," at least that's what happened in my case and those are generally more destructive and risky than the benefits.
  - brokenmachine 10y ago
    Do you play any sports? Personally I find the pursuit of mastery in my chosen sport very meditative, and it also offers the right amount of social contact for me. If you get along with your opponents or teammates, you can chat with them during the match, otherwise I just concentrate on my game and try to win every single point. Even when I lose, I always have a list of things I've done well during the match and a list of things that I need to work on. And if you have some metrics by which you can see improvement, there's a sense of satisfaction that comes from seeing that improvement as well.
firstworldman 10y ago
Can you imagine what it's like to be on the other side of you? I don't know you, and I wouldn't presume to know anything about you other than what you've revealed in your comments, but what I can say is that you've been handed enough lego blocks to build anything you want to, and it seems like you've set them aside because they're not the specific blocks that you had in mind to build the thing that you envisioned at some point in the past. No one automatically receives happiness. But you have an obligation to work on yourself, to do better than you seem to be doing, at building a happy self out of the life that you've made. That obligation is a result of choices you've made to build a family. Like it or not, you owe it to your wife and children to do the extra work of finding the meaning and sense of significance that is absolutely there waiting to be uncovered by you, and put to use by you. All of the extrinsic life experiences you've mentioned in your comments do not entitle you to wait for something to click, to be more than a 'yawning void of nothing'. If what you're talking about is something that you face no matter how many good, wise, smart moves that you make, then you may need to face the reality that you need treatment for depression or some other issue. No amount of travel or physical trials that you've put yourself through can supplant the reality that you can build for yourself by simply looking inward. In fact, it seems as though by constantly abstracting the search into various physical or worldly concerns, you've done the opposite. Happiness and fulfillment are moving targets. Personally, I suspect that I may never get all the way there. But I've spent some time on the road you're describing, and I know it's a dead end road. It's ego, it's self-indulgence, it's blame, it's a withering loneliness that makes you a small island, one that can be described in just a few seconds with cliches, easily traversed by foot, and forgotten or ignored by others. Whether or not you're clinically depressed, you should probably work on the quality of your relationships. Are there people that you can authentically connect with? If not, find them. They're out there. Are there people with whom your connection leaves you feeling bad or more isolated? Get rid of them. Are there people that you keep trying to connect with but it doesn't happen? Stop trying, and refocus your energy on authentic connections. Are there superficial connections that satisfy some social or validating urge that you have? Figure out whether your relationships with those people can be evolved into authentic, meaningful connections or not, and work on the good ones and discard the bad ones. It's an absolute tragedy to waste all of the time and beautiful experiences and memories that you could be accumulating with all of the people in your life, for lack of addressing a few relatively simple and totally fixable issues.
dsego 10y ago
Sounds familiar. Maybe a personality disorder, something I am wondering about myself as well.
- Noseshine 10y ago
  Oh no, no disorder - just life. There is no external meaning, so whatever you decide is it. If you don't decide on anything it's not a disorder: Maybe there just is no good reason to decide on something. In novels like LOTR or war movies life is made meaningful by letting the environment dictate your choice, i.e. limiting your options severely. The paradox of choice shows itself on more than making it tougher to select the right brand of strawberry jam out of 20... :) I have chosen to use a little bit of chemistry to view life. You don't have chemical reactions where every single molecule reacts. It's a probabilistic model: You throw them all into the pot, and then chance dictates that the right molecules actually meet, which is a function of how quickly they move around (increases chances of meeting your destiny to combine with others into the product), how many there are, etc. To nature, we are just like those molecules. Whether we meet conditions where we can combine fruitfully depends - and on A LOT more variables than in a simple chemical reaction. And it gets worse! Because the complexity of our solutions keeps increasing! Which means it gets harder and harder to find the right conditions (which includes the right people) for all to combine. Take Einstein and Newton for example. What is overlooked that without their environment, which includes society and hundreds of people they were in contact with, tens of thousands when also counting indirect connections, was essential. You can throw a protein into a soup and nothing happens, only when the exactly right conditions and exactly the appropriate other molecules are present will something happen. So I don't worry about it too much. I see myself as part of a big probabilistic thing. I am ready and somewhat searching for "my" right conditions, but that is all I'm actually supposed to do by nature. So if I don't find them I just have a good time before it all ends (in my case that does not mean partying). Somewhat related, from a cartoonist: - http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102965026826/goals-are-for-losers-passion-is-bull http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102965026826/goals-are-for-lose... - http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102964992706/goals-vs-systems http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102964992706/goals-vs-systems I added the links for the parts about "system vs. goal - why goals are bad" (I don't want to touch that "you have limited willpower" thing with a ten foot pole, or the simplistic nutrition advice that is only an aside anyway). This goes along nicely with what I mean, if you can see it. > Goals work great for simple situations. But the world is rarely simple these days. > You don’t know what your career will look like in a year. You don’t know what the > economy will be doing, or which new technologies will hit the scene. Your personal > life is just as unpredictable. The future is a big ball of complexity if you look > out far enough. And that means your odds of picking the one best goal for you are > slim, and the odds of achieving it are even slimmer, because everything is a moving > target. > ... (Read the 1st link, that's just the introduction.) > And while you’re at it, stop worrying about whether you have enough passion for > success. Passion comes from success; success doesn’t come from passion. EDIT: I found that Scott Adams has been linked to by others too, this exact same thing, "systems vs. goals".
oli5679 10y ago
If you're competitive and come from a technical background, you might enjoy playing chess?
mr_overalls 10y ago
The thrill-seeking and "yawning void of nothing" are a bit concerning. Have you ever looked at the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder? http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/dxc-20198978 http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-per...
- njloof 10y ago
  Please don't try to diagnose people on the Internet.
  - jshevek 10y ago
    I agree strongly that trying to diagnose people of the internet is unhelpful behavior. However, from the tone of Andrew's comments on this page, it would seem he is interested in improving the quality of his experience of life by seeking greater self understanding. I take the parent comment as merely the offering of yet another possibly helpful direction of inquiry for Andrew, and not an attempt to diagnose.
genegc2 10y ago
In my experience, there is no joy without faith.
- ajuc 10y ago
  In my experience there is.
  - genegc2 10y ago
    That's certainly equally valid. But my brief comment was meant to also be a humble suggestion of another place to look - another thing worth trying. It's a viewpoint that definitely seems to be in the minority in this forum, but it's an important one to consider. A couple more ideas worth considering: - Coming to a place of faith starts like everything; it begins with the desire to have faith. - Consider the possibility that reason and faith are not mutually exclusive, but actually complementary (just give that concept a chance before dismissing it - it has a very strong intellectual history)
    - tasuki 10y ago
      A faith in what? One definition of faith found on the internet: "Belief not supported by evidence or reason, but assumption alone." I have seen many people finding happiness and/or purpose in believing various things not supported by evidence or reason, and have always wondered: how to choose which of these I should believe?
      - triangleman 10y ago
        Start small. I am going to refer you to some scripture but I am not asking you to accept it a priori as truth, only to investigate whether there may be any truth in it. Hebrews 11:6 says that he who comes to God "must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him". Essentially what I am asking you to believe is the truth of "seek and ye shall find"... that it is possible to find, provided that you seek. I am not telling you what you will find, how you will find it, what it will look like or sound like, etc., but only that there is something waiting to be found. Then if you take some steps towards God, you will be rewarded and you will learn a little bit about faith Again I am not going to presume I know exactly what those steps are for you but I will tell you I believe with all my heart that there ARE steps you can take, and even if you take the wrong steps, as long as you are seeking God I believe that he will reward you for your efforts, if only by correcting you from your misguided path. I hope this has been helpful. God bless.
NikolaeVarius 10y ago
Hey man, I feel the exact sane way. Though I usually don't care enough to actually get Licenses and stuff, because I don't give enough of a damn to get them. I've done tons of extremely stupid things just to do them, but I genuinely don't care or really give a shit. They're just "things" that I've done. I've never really understood how people genuinely enjoy things like skiing, hiking, skydiving. Ive done them just fine and meh.
- the_nozzle 10y ago
  .. exactly - you have done them just fine - but have you tried getting good at any of those activities ? I ski and jump competitively (on the bush league level) and I can honestly say that I did not enjoy either until I devoted a shitload of time and money to get decent .

dionidium 10y ago

“Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained; and the restrainer or reason usurps its place & governs the unwilling. And being restrain'd it by degrees becomes passive till it is only the shadow of desire.” -- William Blake

ue_ 10y ago

This is an interesting concept, and I think that desire has two faces: the first face of desire is desire driven for greed and aversion and delusion, as described in Buddhism. Principally, desire for becoming, desire for non-becoming and desire for sensual enjoyment (i.e enjoyment via our six senses, counting the intellect as a sensor and ideas being the objects we sense with it), as is taught in Buddhism. The second kind of desire is that which you do not attach to. The outcome of these desires, whether accomplishing what you want or not, does not affect your mind. You don't crave these outcomes, or thirst for them. In my opinion the distinction between "good" and "bad" desire isn't nearly as important as the distinction between what causes suffering and what alleviates suffering. Sense pleasures cause suffering when we attach to them. AndrewKemendo's problem lies in the lack of contentedness, not lack of happiness. No matter how many sense pleasures we choose to indulge in, they are all impermanent and unstable, all ending, all unsafe. The entirety of a mountain of gold, of solid bullion: even twice that wouldn't suffice for one person. Knowing this, live evenly, in tune with the contemplative life. When you see stress, and from where it comes, how can you incline to sensual pleasures? Knowing acquisition to be a bond in the world, train for its subduing. - The Buddha (SN 4.20) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn04/sn04.020.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn04/sn04.020.tha...