5 ms·

You paint a wonderful vision, but it'd also include Americans telling you how great Trump is and how they can't wait for him to get rid of Mexicans, Arabic men

by GuiA 10y ago

You paint a wonderful vision, but it'd also include Americans telling you how great Trump is and how they can't wait for him to get rid of Mexicans, Arabic men telling you about how it's totally fine to marry a 12 year old and for her to bear their children, French people going on about how muslims should all be imprisoned, etc ... Of course if you're black, a woman, gay, or any other minority they'll be happy to insult and harass you for their entertainment. And not to forget all the very mundane people who don't have much to tell you about except for their mind numbing day labor job and how they can't take care of their sick children. The world is much less poetic and open minded than many techno utopians would like to think.

kuschku 10y ago
Well, the reason is simple. A lot of middle- and upper class people expect to talk to middle- and upper class people in other countries. And in that case, you’d likely get people living by the Knigge, and you’d get awesome results. Sadly, our society has thrown out etiquette in the recent times.
VLM 10y ago
One interesting long term experiment along the same lines provides the data point that if you have a couple million participants over a century or so, skew a bit older on average, eliminate anonymity, and erect a rather high IQ/financial barrier to entry, amateur radio is both much better behaved than most expect yet what little misbehavior exists is incessantly gossiped about.
- GuiA 10y ago
  It's an interesting data point for sure, but I'd argue the prerequisites you listed make the experiment quite different.
- throwaway7767 10y ago
  Better behaved in the sense that most everyone follows etiquette. But I wouldn't expect deep conversation there, unless it's about antenna design.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
"The world is much less poetic and open minded than many techno utopians would like to think". A short read on news stories or youtube videos reminds me of that. I'm nearly always disappointed. I'm one of those techno utopians. I had great hope for the internet 20 years ago. You know, folks broadening their minds, learning things, not being so racist, finding similarities between places, and so on. And while they have, to an extent, I'm still sorely disappointed.
- aphextron 10y ago
  It's more that these technologies have just widened the gulf between people who already cared about those techno utopian ideals, and the ones who never will under any circumstances.
libeclipse 10y ago
I know what you're getting at, but the generalisations in your comment are astounding.
- GuiA 10y ago
  Wait, which part is bothering you? The one third of girls in the Arab region who marry before their 18th birthday? [0] Or the 36% (currently) of Americans who support Trump's policies? [1] Or the roughly 30% of French people who support a presidential candidate [2] whose father and previous party leader was fined for asserting that gassing chambers in world war 2 were just a small historical detail? [3] Not sure the right thing is astounding you here. [0]: http://www.prb.org/pdf13/child-marriage-arab-region.pdf http://www.prb.org/pdf13/child-marriage-arab-region.pdf [1]: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/clinton-leads-trump-5-points-reuters-ipsos-poll-062657638.html https://ca.news.yahoo.com/clinton-leads-trump-5-points-reute... [2]: http://www.sudradio.fr/Politique/Sondage-Marine-Le-Pen-au-2nd-tour-en-2017-dans-toutes-les-hypotheses http://www.sudradio.fr/Politique/Sondage-Marine-Le-Pen-au-2n... [3]: http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2016/04/06/jean-marie-le-pen-condamne-pour-ses-propos-sur-les-chambres-a-gaz_4897050_823448.html http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2016/04/06/jean-mari...
  - ekianjo 10y ago
    > but it'd also include Americans telling you how great Trump is and how they can't wait for him to get rid of Mexicans, > Or the 36% (currently) of Americans who support Trump's policies? [1] You are making a shortcut. There are probably various reasons why people favor a candidate, and you should not underestimate the "I hate the other one even more" factor. > French people going on about how muslims should all be imprisoned This is a preposterous statement. Even the FN's proposed policies is not about putting folks in prison, but to make them leave the country if they had the power to do so. Plus, French prisons are already over-capacity and most prison sentences are not applied because of that. Do you know what you are talking about or do you read tabloids?
    - GuiA 10y ago
      Just a French guy who's lived 10 years in the US here. Yeah, they don't want to send the arabic kids to prison, they want to send them back to where they come from. Oh wait, they were born in France. Well, they want to send them somewhere, that's for sure. I believe we may have gotten drunk together after a HN Kansai meetup last year, but my memory of the night's hazy.
lagadu 10y ago
> The world is much less poetic and open minded than many techno utopians would like to think. The problem isn't the world, it's that you're assuming the rest of the world (including the western one) shares your values and aspirations of what should and should not be down to minute details.

by GuiA 10y ago

kuschku 10y ago

Well, the reason is simple. A lot of middle- and upper class people expect to talk to middle- and upper class people in other countries. And in that case, you’d likely get people living by the Knigge, and you’d get awesome results. Sadly, our society has thrown out etiquette in the recent times.

VLM 10y ago

One interesting long term experiment along the same lines provides the data point that if you have a couple million participants over a century or so, skew a bit older on average, eliminate anonymity, and erect a rather high IQ/financial barrier to entry, amateur radio is both much better behaved than most expect yet what little misbehavior exists is incessantly gossiped about.

GuiA 10y ago
It's an interesting data point for sure, but I'd argue the prerequisites you listed make the experiment quite different.
throwaway7767 10y ago
Better behaved in the sense that most everyone follows etiquette. But I wouldn't expect deep conversation there, unless it's about antenna design.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

"The world is much less poetic and open minded than many techno utopians would like to think". A short read on news stories or youtube videos reminds me of that. I'm nearly always disappointed. I'm one of those techno utopians. I had great hope for the internet 20 years ago. You know, folks broadening their minds, learning things, not being so racist, finding similarities between places, and so on. And while they have, to an extent, I'm still sorely disappointed.

aphextron 10y ago
It's more that these technologies have just widened the gulf between people who already cared about those techno utopian ideals, and the ones who never will under any circumstances.

libeclipse 10y ago

I know what you're getting at, but the generalisations in your comment are astounding.

GuiA 10y ago
Wait, which part is bothering you? The one third of girls in the Arab region who marry before their 18th birthday? [0] Or the 36% (currently) of Americans who support Trump's policies? [1] Or the roughly 30% of French people who support a presidential candidate [2] whose father and previous party leader was fined for asserting that gassing chambers in world war 2 were just a small historical detail? [3] Not sure the right thing is astounding you here. [0]: http://www.prb.org/pdf13/child-marriage-arab-region.pdf http://www.prb.org/pdf13/child-marriage-arab-region.pdf [1]: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/clinton-leads-trump-5-points-reuters-ipsos-poll-062657638.html https://ca.news.yahoo.com/clinton-leads-trump-5-points-reute... [2]: http://www.sudradio.fr/Politique/Sondage-Marine-Le-Pen-au-2nd-tour-en-2017-dans-toutes-les-hypotheses http://www.sudradio.fr/Politique/Sondage-Marine-Le-Pen-au-2n... [3]: http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2016/04/06/jean-marie-le-pen-condamne-pour-ses-propos-sur-les-chambres-a-gaz_4897050_823448.html http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2016/04/06/jean-mari...
- ekianjo 10y ago
  > but it'd also include Americans telling you how great Trump is and how they can't wait for him to get rid of Mexicans, > Or the 36% (currently) of Americans who support Trump's policies? [1] You are making a shortcut. There are probably various reasons why people favor a candidate, and you should not underestimate the "I hate the other one even more" factor. > French people going on about how muslims should all be imprisoned This is a preposterous statement. Even the FN's proposed policies is not about putting folks in prison, but to make them leave the country if they had the power to do so. Plus, French prisons are already over-capacity and most prison sentences are not applied because of that. Do you know what you are talking about or do you read tabloids?
  - GuiA 10y ago
    Just a French guy who's lived 10 years in the US here. Yeah, they don't want to send the arabic kids to prison, they want to send them back to where they come from. Oh wait, they were born in France. Well, they want to send them somewhere, that's for sure. I believe we may have gotten drunk together after a HN Kansai meetup last year, but my memory of the night's hazy.

lagadu 10y ago

> The world is much less poetic and open minded than many techno utopians would like to think. The problem isn't the world, it's that you're assuming the rest of the world (including the western one) shares your values and aspirations of what should and should not be down to minute details.