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"Don't use these tools if you value privacy" is not that far off from "If you have nothing to hide, why are you afraid of surveillance?" An observed life is not

"Don't use these tools if you value privacy" is not that far off from "If you have nothing to hide, why are you afraid of surveillance?" An observed life is not a free life. Many people have to use social media to communicate with family, work associates, etc... In many cases, facebook messaging has replaced methods of communication that did not rely on the content or metadata of messages for profit. All that really matters is if this was legit and FB assumed people would have no problem with it then they would not have hidden it.

ed312 10y ago
Is email not sufficient to communicate with family, work associates, etc.?
- derekp7 10y ago
  I've thought about building something that gives a social network type experience that is built on top of email. Any status update would get sent out to an email list of your connections, and all the emails could be put in a specific mail folder using standard rules. A front end app would then scan that folder and give you a personalized page that represents the latest status based on what it sees in that folder. The raw messages themselves may contain various control messages (such as "friend requests" and "drop requests", but otherwise can be directly viewable too. But the main interface would be from a front-end app that runs on the user's PC or mobile device.
  - gavinpc 10y ago
    I love this idea (if only for the motivation behind it). How would your "normal" mail client filter out the messages that are for this app? People have lots of different mail clients which they might not be able (or willing) to configure. Or would you expect a dedicated address.
    - softawre 10y ago
      The problem, of course, is who builds/maintains this, how do they get paid, and how do you pay the server fees.
      - derekp7 10y ago
        The app would run on the user's local PC or phone, and it would access data directly from their mailbox (and create a local DB from that data). So no backend server to worry about.
        gavinpc 10y ago
        Without a third-party managing associations, how do you maintain that "friendship" is consensual? In other words, how do you prevent "I have your email address" from meaning "you're my friend now."
        derekp7 10y ago
        When you send a friend request to someone, their stuff is shared with you only if they accept the request on their end. If they reject the friend request, then anything coming from you that they don't want can be handled as spam (the client side software would just filter the content itself in that case).
    - derekp7 10y ago
      Almost all email clients have some sort of filtering. And the email messages would all have a keyword in the subject line, so filtering could be accomplished by that (or via an x-header). The app itself could automatically create the filters for various web hosted email systems too.
  - Natanael_L 10y ago
    I recall (but can't find) having seen a social network built on Keybase.io's encrypted filesystem (KBFS), where your public data is signed stored in your public folder, and your private data is encrypted and shared with only those you choose. Everything is based on files.
  - SalimoS 10y ago
    I'm sure you are talking about mailing list :)
- pjc50 10y ago
  Email is also under marketing surveillance, unless you refuse to correspond with anyone using gmail. I've known only one person willing to go to those lengths to make a point.
  - Joof 10y ago
    If you have a good alternative email I'd be down for that at least. Hosting your own turns out to be surprisingly difficult.
    - mnw21cam 10y ago
      Make that surprisingly easy. Been doing it for more than a decade now, just on my house ADSL connection. It helps that a friend has agreed to host a backup MX.
      - Joof 10y ago
        Really? My email tended to be blacklisted and treated as spam and I had poor filters and search. Help me out here lol.
        mnw21cam 10y ago
        If you send email directly from your machine by looking up MX records from a home ADSL line, then yes this will happen. Instead, you should send your mail via your ISP's outgoing SMTP server, using the mail submission port number 587. Your ISP should provide this service, and you will probably have to authenticate using your username/password associated with your internet connection.
- abawany 10y ago
  It is pretty good but they are directed messages and I think people look for something where they can check on their own terms what a person is up to. I recently opened an account on Diaspora using the sechat.org pod. It has been a fun experience so far. The network effects mean that moving your friends over to it will be another matter. But it has been fun to use.
- rickycook 10y ago
  slack and facebook exist because many people view email as insufficient also, it's email. yes, it's highly insufficient
jlarocco 10y ago
That's completely wrong. There is not, and has never been, an inalienable right to use somebody else's property (aka Facebook's network) to communicate. You are not entitled to coerce Facebook into building their product to work the way you want. On the contrary, it's Facebook's right, as the owner and creator of their platform and network, to handle all of the network traffic that you are voluntarily sending them however they want. There are more communication methods available today than ever before. If a person you are trying to contact has stubbornly refused to use all of them except Facebook, that is not Facebook's problem, and it doesn't make them obligated to you in any way whatsoever. If you don't like it then send an email, send a text message, call them, write them a letter, visit them, hire a courier, fax them, use another social network, etc.
- treebeard901 10y ago
  Opining on the fact that FB messenger has replaced traditional forms of communication is not the same as an endorsement for an inalienable right to privacy everywhere. It's far too complicated of a topic to be boiled down to a talking point. It isn't even the core issue here. The problem is that FB knew this was wrong, so they hid it and hoped no one would notice. > "If you don't like it then use X or Y" If you are not aware that a service you're using is spying on you how are you supposed to know you don't like it in the first place? The cynical answer is that you can just expect them all to spy on you by default. Well if that's the case then we are getting back to the debate about privacy being an inalienable right.
- mnw21cam 10y ago
  By your argument, it is the right of Fedex/UPS/whatever to handle all of the parcels that you voluntarily hand over to them in whatever manner they want.
oldmanjay 10y ago
You said a whole lot but never actually articulated your point. I'm assuming it's something about how it's not fair that you find Facebook to be useful. Could you clarify?
- uxp 10y ago
  I find Facebook to be a boring site, with friends complaining about the same things day in and day out, with an occasional link about something interesting, but mostly filled with inspirational memes and images that I don't particularly find relevant. Sure, I could better curate my friends list and follow a wider range of pages and topics, but then aren't we back at something like MySpace, where the idea was to follow everyone and everything you found interesting? The problem with Facebook's usefulness isn't that I find it useful, it's that everyone else in my circle finds it useful. This means that any event, major life change like marital engagements and announcements of expectancy or child birth, and general updates of wellbeing from my elderly family are all communicated via Facebook. For example, a friend of mine from high school recently had a child. I had not logged into Facebook for over a year, and suddenly found myself embarrassed for my lack of keeping up with her when I ran into her at the grocery store while she was chasing down a toddler who had escaped down an aisle. I did not have the slightest clue as to her family status, because I stopped logging into Facebook to receive those updates and she stopped going out to parties and bars where we normally would run into each other (to avoid drinking and cigarette smoking), and it just appeared like we drifted apart. Even now, some friends of mine are planning a trip together, and it's entirely done within a closed group on Facebook. There is no way for me to participate in this trip without maintaining some status on Facebook, else my significant other will have to just relay all that information, which is tiring, and prone to the "telephone" effect.
  - tdkl 10y ago
    >it just appeared like we drifted apart. And that's life. Perhaps you weren't that close enough anyway to find about the child. And that's life too. The notion of "being connected" with all the people you knew is is similar then the "I need to be happy, if not something is wrong with me" and got introduced with modern social media (particularly Facebook).

ed312 10y ago

Is email not sufficient to communicate with family, work associates, etc.?

derekp7 10y ago
I've thought about building something that gives a social network type experience that is built on top of email. Any status update would get sent out to an email list of your connections, and all the emails could be put in a specific mail folder using standard rules. A front end app would then scan that folder and give you a personalized page that represents the latest status based on what it sees in that folder. The raw messages themselves may contain various control messages (such as "friend requests" and "drop requests", but otherwise can be directly viewable too. But the main interface would be from a front-end app that runs on the user's PC or mobile device.
- gavinpc 10y ago
  I love this idea (if only for the motivation behind it). How would your "normal" mail client filter out the messages that are for this app? People have lots of different mail clients which they might not be able (or willing) to configure. Or would you expect a dedicated address.
  - softawre 10y ago
    The problem, of course, is who builds/maintains this, how do they get paid, and how do you pay the server fees.
    - derekp7 10y ago
      The app would run on the user's local PC or phone, and it would access data directly from their mailbox (and create a local DB from that data). So no backend server to worry about.
      - gavinpc 10y ago
        Without a third-party managing associations, how do you maintain that "friendship" is consensual? In other words, how do you prevent "I have your email address" from meaning "you're my friend now."
        derekp7 10y ago
        When you send a friend request to someone, their stuff is shared with you only if they accept the request on their end. If they reject the friend request, then anything coming from you that they don't want can be handled as spam (the client side software would just filter the content itself in that case).
  - derekp7 10y ago
    Almost all email clients have some sort of filtering. And the email messages would all have a keyword in the subject line, so filtering could be accomplished by that (or via an x-header). The app itself could automatically create the filters for various web hosted email systems too.
- Natanael_L 10y ago
  I recall (but can't find) having seen a social network built on Keybase.io's encrypted filesystem (KBFS), where your public data is signed stored in your public folder, and your private data is encrypted and shared with only those you choose. Everything is based on files.
- SalimoS 10y ago
  I'm sure you are talking about mailing list :)
pjc50 10y ago
Email is also under marketing surveillance, unless you refuse to correspond with anyone using gmail. I've known only one person willing to go to those lengths to make a point.
- Joof 10y ago
  If you have a good alternative email I'd be down for that at least. Hosting your own turns out to be surprisingly difficult.
  - mnw21cam 10y ago
    Make that surprisingly easy. Been doing it for more than a decade now, just on my house ADSL connection. It helps that a friend has agreed to host a backup MX.
    - Joof 10y ago
      Really? My email tended to be blacklisted and treated as spam and I had poor filters and search. Help me out here lol.
      - mnw21cam 10y ago
        If you send email directly from your machine by looking up MX records from a home ADSL line, then yes this will happen. Instead, you should send your mail via your ISP's outgoing SMTP server, using the mail submission port number 587. Your ISP should provide this service, and you will probably have to authenticate using your username/password associated with your internet connection.
abawany 10y ago
It is pretty good but they are directed messages and I think people look for something where they can check on their own terms what a person is up to. I recently opened an account on Diaspora using the sechat.org pod. It has been a fun experience so far. The network effects mean that moving your friends over to it will be another matter. But it has been fun to use.
rickycook 10y ago
slack and facebook exist because many people view email as insufficient also, it's email. yes, it's highly insufficient

jlarocco 10y ago

That's completely wrong. There is not, and has never been, an inalienable right to use somebody else's property (aka Facebook's network) to communicate. You are not entitled to coerce Facebook into building their product to work the way you want. On the contrary, it's Facebook's right, as the owner and creator of their platform and network, to handle all of the network traffic that you are voluntarily sending them however they want. There are more communication methods available today than ever before. If a person you are trying to contact has stubbornly refused to use all of them except Facebook, that is not Facebook's problem, and it doesn't make them obligated to you in any way whatsoever. If you don't like it then send an email, send a text message, call them, write them a letter, visit them, hire a courier, fax them, use another social network, etc.

treebeard901 10y ago
Opining on the fact that FB messenger has replaced traditional forms of communication is not the same as an endorsement for an inalienable right to privacy everywhere. It's far too complicated of a topic to be boiled down to a talking point. It isn't even the core issue here. The problem is that FB knew this was wrong, so they hid it and hoped no one would notice. > "If you don't like it then use X or Y" If you are not aware that a service you're using is spying on you how are you supposed to know you don't like it in the first place? The cynical answer is that you can just expect them all to spy on you by default. Well if that's the case then we are getting back to the debate about privacy being an inalienable right.
mnw21cam 10y ago
By your argument, it is the right of Fedex/UPS/whatever to handle all of the parcels that you voluntarily hand over to them in whatever manner they want.

oldmanjay 10y ago

You said a whole lot but never actually articulated your point. I'm assuming it's something about how it's not fair that you find Facebook to be useful. Could you clarify?

uxp 10y ago
I find Facebook to be a boring site, with friends complaining about the same things day in and day out, with an occasional link about something interesting, but mostly filled with inspirational memes and images that I don't particularly find relevant. Sure, I could better curate my friends list and follow a wider range of pages and topics, but then aren't we back at something like MySpace, where the idea was to follow everyone and everything you found interesting? The problem with Facebook's usefulness isn't that I find it useful, it's that everyone else in my circle finds it useful. This means that any event, major life change like marital engagements and announcements of expectancy or child birth, and general updates of wellbeing from my elderly family are all communicated via Facebook. For example, a friend of mine from high school recently had a child. I had not logged into Facebook for over a year, and suddenly found myself embarrassed for my lack of keeping up with her when I ran into her at the grocery store while she was chasing down a toddler who had escaped down an aisle. I did not have the slightest clue as to her family status, because I stopped logging into Facebook to receive those updates and she stopped going out to parties and bars where we normally would run into each other (to avoid drinking and cigarette smoking), and it just appeared like we drifted apart. Even now, some friends of mine are planning a trip together, and it's entirely done within a closed group on Facebook. There is no way for me to participate in this trip without maintaining some status on Facebook, else my significant other will have to just relay all that information, which is tiring, and prone to the "telephone" effect.
- tdkl 10y ago
  >it just appeared like we drifted apart. And that's life. Perhaps you weren't that close enough anyway to find about the child. And that's life too. The notion of "being connected" with all the people you knew is is similar then the "I need to be happy, if not something is wrong with me" and got introduced with modern social media (particularly Facebook).