8 ms·

Most don't like hearing this: if you don't want your personal information to be shared, don't use these "social media" tools. I suspect that you'd be familiar

by 0xmohit 10y ago

Most don't like hearing this: if you don't want your personal information to be shared, don't use these "social media" tools. I suspect that you'd be familiar with LinkedIn dark patterns [0] too. [0] https://medium.com/@danrschlosser/linkedin-dark-patterns-3ae726fe1462 https://medium.com/@danrschlosser/linkedin-dark-patterns-3ae...

kristianc 10y ago
It's not that simple. There are many many ways that your information can end up being referenced in an identity graph and be discoverable by Facebook that don't involve signing up for Facebook at all. It's more - don't sign into a public wifi network, don't hand over your email address at a checkout, don't sign up for a store card.. oh, and don't sign up for Facebook either. Not just that, but even if your number is not shared with Facebook, but Facebook knows that ten of your friends all contact you three times a week, you're still in the graph even if you're not personally receiving advertising.
- ffggvv 10y ago
  That practice can be fought more easily in courts. Also the more user deleting they're accounts the less "friends" you have that share your number with facebook.
- 0xmohit 10y ago
  > There are many many ways that your information can end up being referenced in an identity graph and be discoverable by Facebook Of course, it's not simple. Additional measure might include using browser extensions like Ghostery, uBlock origin. I know people find it hard to do, but avoid using Google search. Use Duckduckgo instead. Block ads. Some sites refuse to load up for that reason. I'm ok giving those a pass :)
  - jhobag 10y ago
    iirc duckduckgo isn't the best. disconnect is better
geofft 10y ago
That's like saying "If you don't want to eat horse meat, don't eat fast food." Your solution works, but it's entirely reasonable for a consumer to want to get the positive parts of a good or service (even a good or service you don't like) without the negative parts. Market pressure and regulation are both good ways to make it happen.
- ffggvv 10y ago
  In this case, market pressure derives from users deleting their accounts. For a long time people where saying that ads/tracking is good because nobody is willing to pay for software/service/social media. Well users were paying for whatsapp. There was no need to sell it to facebook, nor there was a need for facebook to use these dark patterns with whatsapp. Regulation should be an exception. Free markets work pretty well in practice.
  - 0xmohit 10y ago
    > nor there was a need for facebook to use these dark patterns with whatsapp Facebook needs to recover it's investment in WhatsApp. No?
treebeard901 10y ago
"Don't use these tools if you value privacy" is not that far off from "If you have nothing to hide, why are you afraid of surveillance?" An observed life is not a free life. Many people have to use social media to communicate with family, work associates, etc... In many cases, facebook messaging has replaced methods of communication that did not rely on the content or metadata of messages for profit. All that really matters is if this was legit and FB assumed people would have no problem with it then they would not have hidden it.
- ed312 10y ago
  Is email not sufficient to communicate with family, work associates, etc.?
  - derekp7 10y ago
    I've thought about building something that gives a social network type experience that is built on top of email. Any status update would get sent out to an email list of your connections, and all the emails could be put in a specific mail folder using standard rules. A front end app would then scan that folder and give you a personalized page that represents the latest status based on what it sees in that folder. The raw messages themselves may contain various control messages (such as "friend requests" and "drop requests", but otherwise can be directly viewable too. But the main interface would be from a front-end app that runs on the user's PC or mobile device.
    - gavinpc 10y ago
      I love this idea (if only for the motivation behind it). How would your "normal" mail client filter out the messages that are for this app? People have lots of different mail clients which they might not be able (or willing) to configure. Or would you expect a dedicated address.
      - softawre 10y ago
        The problem, of course, is who builds/maintains this, how do they get paid, and how do you pay the server fees.
caseysoftware 10y ago
That doesn't work because it's not just what you share with the social networks but what others share about you and how they're able to link those little facts to create a full picture. (Or what the social networks collect on you from other places.) Facebook had a leak ~3 years ago that showed it: http://www.zdnet.com/article/anger-mounts-after-facebooks-shadow-profiles-leak-in-bug/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/anger-mounts-after-facebooks-sh... but there have been darker efforts to do this since at least 2006 or so that I've found.
CodeMage 10y ago
There's a reason most people don't like hearing that: it's not a solution. I could try to explain, but Moxie Marlinspike did it a lot better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG0KrT6pBPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG0KrT6pBPk
huskyr 10y ago
This argument is become less and less valid as social media accounts become more and more indispensable for leading a normal modern life. Sure, you can still e-mail, call, sms or heck, even visit your friends and family IRL. But not having a social media account sure makes it more inconvenient. All your friends use these networks. In a couple of years not having a social media account will be seen as equivalent to not having a bank account, or a passport, or a phone number. Sure, it's possible to live like that. But it sure is inconvenient. Aside from that, as others have mentioned in this thread, even if you don't have an account Facebook, Google, LinkedIn, etc. have your data already. You can be sure one of your friends has uploaded their contacts to WhatsApp, including your phone number and mail address. Facebook has detected your face in a photograph your cousin uploaded. Google has all of your self-hosted mails because all of your friends use Gmail. If you don't want your personal information to be shared, you need to live like a hermit.
- killbrad 10y ago
  I'd argue it's more meaningful, not more cumbersome. Do you only exclusively communicate with people via Facebook today?
igivanov 10y ago
Huh? I don't use facebook, and yet it knows about me because I am in other people's contacts and some of those people had to share their contacts with facebook. Fuck facebook a thousand times over.
pjc50 10y ago
It's not enough to not use these tools, it becomes a requirement not to share your personal information with any VC-backed startup in case it's sold in the future. Which is a ridiculous standard to hold users to.
joering2 10y ago
> if you don't want your personal information to be shared, don't use these "social media" tools. Since Faceook is using cookies and is able to read your data from other websites than FB alone, can you please fix your sentence to read this: > if you don't want your personal information to be shared, don't use internet. period.
- Moru 10y ago
  There are very simple blockers that can block all Facebook cookies on other homepages. uBlock for example has the option to remove all social media icons and that includes the tracking cookies.
taneq 10y ago
I just found another one (while trying my 'free trial' of LinkedIn Premium): * You have to enter a credit card number to begin the 'free trial', for a 'seamless experience' (ie. so we can bill you if you forget to cancel). * You have to cancel your free trial 1 day or more before the end of the trial period to avoid being billed for the next month (at least I hope it's "1 day or more" and not "exactly 1 day"... the exact wording is "If you wish to avoid being charged for your free trial, you must cancel the trial one day prior to the auto-renewal.") * You can't then delete your payment method at the same time, and must remember to do so after the end of the billing cycle.

by 0xmohit 10y ago

kristianc 10y ago

It's not that simple. There are many many ways that your information can end up being referenced in an identity graph and be discoverable by Facebook that don't involve signing up for Facebook at all. It's more - don't sign into a public wifi network, don't hand over your email address at a checkout, don't sign up for a store card.. oh, and don't sign up for Facebook either. Not just that, but even if your number is not shared with Facebook, but Facebook knows that ten of your friends all contact you three times a week, you're still in the graph even if you're not personally receiving advertising.

ffggvv 10y ago
That practice can be fought more easily in courts. Also the more user deleting they're accounts the less "friends" you have that share your number with facebook.
0xmohit 10y ago
> There are many many ways that your information can end up being referenced in an identity graph and be discoverable by Facebook Of course, it's not simple. Additional measure might include using browser extensions like Ghostery, uBlock origin. I know people find it hard to do, but avoid using Google search. Use Duckduckgo instead. Block ads. Some sites refuse to load up for that reason. I'm ok giving those a pass :)
- jhobag 10y ago
  iirc duckduckgo isn't the best. disconnect is better

geofft 10y ago

That's like saying "If you don't want to eat horse meat, don't eat fast food." Your solution works, but it's entirely reasonable for a consumer to want to get the positive parts of a good or service (even a good or service you don't like) without the negative parts. Market pressure and regulation are both good ways to make it happen.

ffggvv 10y ago
In this case, market pressure derives from users deleting their accounts. For a long time people where saying that ads/tracking is good because nobody is willing to pay for software/service/social media. Well users were paying for whatsapp. There was no need to sell it to facebook, nor there was a need for facebook to use these dark patterns with whatsapp. Regulation should be an exception. Free markets work pretty well in practice.
- 0xmohit 10y ago
  > nor there was a need for facebook to use these dark patterns with whatsapp Facebook needs to recover it's investment in WhatsApp. No?

treebeard901 10y ago

"Don't use these tools if you value privacy" is not that far off from "If you have nothing to hide, why are you afraid of surveillance?" An observed life is not a free life. Many people have to use social media to communicate with family, work associates, etc... In many cases, facebook messaging has replaced methods of communication that did not rely on the content or metadata of messages for profit. All that really matters is if this was legit and FB assumed people would have no problem with it then they would not have hidden it.

ed312 10y ago
Is email not sufficient to communicate with family, work associates, etc.?
- derekp7 10y ago
  I've thought about building something that gives a social network type experience that is built on top of email. Any status update would get sent out to an email list of your connections, and all the emails could be put in a specific mail folder using standard rules. A front end app would then scan that folder and give you a personalized page that represents the latest status based on what it sees in that folder. The raw messages themselves may contain various control messages (such as "friend requests" and "drop requests", but otherwise can be directly viewable too. But the main interface would be from a front-end app that runs on the user's PC or mobile device.
  - gavinpc 10y ago
    I love this idea (if only for the motivation behind it). How would your "normal" mail client filter out the messages that are for this app? People have lots of different mail clients which they might not be able (or willing) to configure. Or would you expect a dedicated address.
    - softawre 10y ago
      The problem, of course, is who builds/maintains this, how do they get paid, and how do you pay the server fees.

caseysoftware 10y ago

That doesn't work because it's not just what you share with the social networks but what others share about you and how they're able to link those little facts to create a full picture. (Or what the social networks collect on you from other places.) Facebook had a leak ~3 years ago that showed it: http://www.zdnet.com/article/anger-mounts-after-facebooks-shadow-profiles-leak-in-bug/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/anger-mounts-after-facebooks-sh... but there have been darker efforts to do this since at least 2006 or so that I've found.

CodeMage 10y ago

There's a reason most people don't like hearing that: it's not a solution. I could try to explain, but Moxie Marlinspike did it a lot better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG0KrT6pBPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG0KrT6pBPk

huskyr 10y ago

This argument is become less and less valid as social media accounts become more and more indispensable for leading a normal modern life. Sure, you can still e-mail, call, sms or heck, even visit your friends and family IRL. But not having a social media account sure makes it more inconvenient. All your friends use these networks. In a couple of years not having a social media account will be seen as equivalent to not having a bank account, or a passport, or a phone number. Sure, it's possible to live like that. But it sure is inconvenient. Aside from that, as others have mentioned in this thread, even if you don't have an account Facebook, Google, LinkedIn, etc. have your data already. You can be sure one of your friends has uploaded their contacts to WhatsApp, including your phone number and mail address. Facebook has detected your face in a photograph your cousin uploaded. Google has all of your self-hosted mails because all of your friends use Gmail. If you don't want your personal information to be shared, you need to live like a hermit.

killbrad 10y ago
I'd argue it's more meaningful, not more cumbersome. Do you only exclusively communicate with people via Facebook today?

igivanov 10y ago

Huh? I don't use facebook, and yet it knows about me because I am in other people's contacts and some of those people had to share their contacts with facebook. Fuck facebook a thousand times over.

pjc50 10y ago

It's not enough to not use these tools, it becomes a requirement not to share your personal information with any VC-backed startup in case it's sold in the future. Which is a ridiculous standard to hold users to.

joering2 10y ago

> if you don't want your personal information to be shared, don't use these "social media" tools. Since Faceook is using cookies and is able to read your data from other websites than FB alone, can you please fix your sentence to read this: > if you don't want your personal information to be shared, don't use internet. period.

Moru 10y ago
There are very simple blockers that can block all Facebook cookies on other homepages. uBlock for example has the option to remove all social media icons and that includes the tracking cookies.

taneq 10y ago

I just found another one (while trying my 'free trial' of LinkedIn Premium): * You have to enter a credit card number to begin the 'free trial', for a 'seamless experience' (ie. so we can bill you if you forget to cancel). * You have to cancel your free trial 1 day or more before the end of the trial period to avoid being billed for the next month (at least I hope it's "1 day or more" and not "exactly 1 day"... the exact wording is "If you wish to avoid being charged for your free trial, you must cancel the trial one day prior to the auto-renewal.") * You can't then delete your payment method at the same time, and must remember to do so after the end of the billing cycle.