14 ms·

Looking ahead for WhatsApp

210 points by edmorley 10y ago

kirkdouglas 10y ago
Time to use something else...
gshakir 10y ago
I and some of my friends foresaw this day and used Google voice numbers. Still, time to look for an alternative.
- miend 10y ago
  https://whispersystems.org https://whispersystems.org Open Whisper Systems' Signal is an open-source, end-to-end encrypted messaging client which can handle your regular SMS/MMS traffic, as well as (better) encrypted text communication between any number of Signal users, and encrypted voice calls. It not only encrypts content in transit, but stores it encrypted on your device as well. It has clients for iOS and Android. It also has a beta desktop app in the form of a Chrome app which can sync with your phone. https://theintercept.com/2016/06/22/battle-of-the-secure-messaging-apps-how-signal-beats-whatsapp/ https://theintercept.com/2016/06/22/battle-of-the-secure-mes...
celticninja 10y ago
What if I don't have a Facebook account? Are they still tracking my phone number?
- pawadu 10y ago
  Well, the latest trend is that you don't need an account to be tracked and spammed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12335168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12335168
- tommeader 10y ago
  It doesn't really clarify it at all but there is a question like this in their FAQs https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/28030012 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/28030012 about half way down or so.
- srinathrajaram 10y ago
  If you use an app that displays ads from Facebook, then most probably yes.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
pidg 10y ago
> [We'll] show you more relevant ads if you have an account with them. For example, you might see an ad from a company you already work with, rather than one from someone you've never heard of. I'm not sure WhatsApp understand why people advertise.
- jasongill 10y ago
  I'm not sure you understand the modern advertising landscape... Reminding customers of your brand and products through retargeting is very big business
  - dx034 10y ago
    That works for regular purchases, but not for every company. I recently bought a car and did extensive research prior to the purchase. Basically from the day I bought the car (and stopped searching) they started showing me ads. It's 2 months ago and I still see barely anything else. Doesn't seem very effective..
    - iamben 10y ago
      That's an attribution problem rather than a retargeting one. A long period of research prior to car purchasing is well documented[1] - the problem you have here is the conversion hasn't been connected to the retargeting. If they had an efficient way of saying "Excellent - after 10 weeks of research dx034 has actually bought the Audi" they could switch you off. Until that's noted, or you drop out of the 'this is the longest period people are likely to shop for' bucket, you're going to see the ads. [1] https://www.thinkwithgoogle.com/research-studies/zmot-auto-study.html https://www.thinkwithgoogle.com/research-studies/zmot-auto-s...
- DavidNielsen 10y ago
  In that case it would lessen the chance of a competitor gaining access to your eyeballs, not a bad bargain in some cases.
  - 10y ago
hengheng 10y ago
I used to be able to pay for WhatsApp. Those were the days.
carmat 10y ago
This title is very misleading to the point that it's the exact opposite of what the post says: "We won’t post or share your WhatsApp number with others, including on Facebook, and we still won't sell, share, or give your phone number to advertisers."
- RodericDay 10y ago
  > including on Facebook not with
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - rilut 10y ago
    >> including on Facebook > not with Wow that is cleverly evil
onewaystreet 10y ago
The post says the exact opposite of the title: > Even as we coordinate more with Facebook in the months ahead, your encrypted messages stay private and no one else can read them. Not WhatsApp, not Facebook, nor anyone else. We won’t post or share your WhatsApp number with others, including on Facebook, and we still won't sell, share, or give your phone number to advertisers. Edit: That paragraph relates to your WhatsApp number. It is true that they do plan to share your phone number that you signed up with. You can opt-out though: https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016
- thwd 10y ago
  That's just clever wording. > We won’t post or share your WhatsApp number with others, including _ON_ Facebook. Is just saying that your number won't be visible to your facebook peeps. Which does not mean that Facebook (the company) won't get access to it.
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  > You can opt-out though: https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 This is a dark pattern. In fact, once you say "Agree" you only have 30 days to opt-out. > After you agree to our updated Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, you will have an additional 30 days to make this choice by going to Settings > Account > Share my account info in the app. I can't see such an option.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - cholantesh 10y ago
    Interesting that the opt-out link now leads to a 444...
    - denzil_correa 10y ago
      On the web or on the phone? It works on the web for me.
wigginus 10y ago
As far as I read correctly, you can opt out of this: https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- uitgewis 10y ago
  There is no such option in the iPhone app (2.16.9 / 15 Aug 2016).
  - denzil_correa 10y ago
    Once you say "Agree" you only have 30 days to opt-out. > After you agree to our updated Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, you will have an additional 30 days to make this choice by going to Settings > Account > Share my account info in the app. I can't see the option either.
    - sdoering 10y ago
      This will probably be pushed with the next update, when you have to re-agree with the terms of service.
      - denzil_correa 10y ago
        I do not remember receiving any agreement to ToS on a new update.
juandazapata 10y ago
The irony in their homepage is so good: ---------------- > Why we don't sell ads Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we dont need. - Tyler Durden, Fight Club
- longsangstan 10y ago
  Basically the whole blog post is talking about what Facebook is doing lol
uitgewis 10y ago
Is there any way to keep WhatsApp and Facebook separate? It seems that either a) I use WhatsApp and have Facebook collect my data, or b) don't use WhatsApp. There seems to be a complete lack of choice with what they do with my data.
- lunula 10y ago
  You can use other messaging services. But the one you use may get bought up. They are fickle. Why isn't there a popular p2p solution to messaging (other than email)?
  - ffggvv 10y ago
    Email is not p2p. And building an encrypted p2p is technically hard. Building a p2p even without encryption has UX problems. The other problem is how to make money from it? What's the incentive (for a private) to build it?
Kenji 10y ago
I uninstalled WhatsApp the moment it was bought by facebook. It's so obvious that facebook corrupts this fantastic company/chat application.
- luastoned 10y ago
  How did Facebook corrupt WhatsApp? Pre-Facebook there was no end-to-end encryption, etc..
  - sangnoir 10y ago
    > How did Facebook corrupt WhatsApp? Previously WhatsApp had subscriptions ($1/yr) and were proudly ad-free. Facebook scrapped subscriptions and is about to add Ads. WhatsApp also never shared your number with anyone; sharing your number with advertisers is undoubtedly corrupting WhatsApp.
    - 8ytecoder 10y ago
      Yeah, I actually paid for the 3 year subscription. Now I can't even see the option. It was a big differentiator in my opinion. Their logic was sound too - even at $1 a user they could make a $1bn a year. (Even in developing countries - because of the networking effect - people would have paid that modest fee.)
  - ffggvv 10y ago
    Did you see the source code of WhatsApp? Do you know somebody that saw it? They can tell all they want, but I won't trust them until I (or someone I trust, e.g. Debian, FSF, etc.) see the code. Also being end to end encrypted does not block whatsapp from censoring you or your friends/family! See how they "disabled" links to telegram https://orat.io/blog/as-of-today-whatsapp-is-blocking-telegram-links/ https://orat.io/blog/as-of-today-whatsapp-is-blocking-telegr... and removed the telegram page from facebook.
    - fiatjaf 10y ago
      It seems the end-to-end encryption was done by OpenWhisperSystems.
Renaud 10y ago
> we want to explore ways for you to communicate with businesses that matter to you too Empty marketing speak, that sentence has zero information content. It just leaves me vaguely worried that they don't seem to be up-front with whatever they are about to do. I'm just glad that FB doesn't have my number and doesn't have access to my contact list.
- aembleton 10y ago
  If any of your Facebook friends have your number and have synced their contact list, then they do have you number.
  - Renaud 10y ago
    But Facebook will not know it's me because FB doesn't have my number. At worst, all FB know is that some people have my Whatsapp number. That doesn't help FB serve targeted ads to my FB account.
    - eric_the_read 10y ago
      FB is constantly popping up a message to me saying, "Is (xxx) xxx-xxxx your phone number? Confirm it now to secure your account" despite the fact that I have never given them my phone #, nor ever used Whatsapp. I'm sure they know perfectly well it's you, they just aren't (for whatever reason) doing anything about it yet.
- jamiesonbecker 10y ago
  If you've installed WhatsApp, then they do. If I hash your number that you installed whatsapp on and get X, and then hash your number in Facebook and get X, and then realize that X == X, then I just matched your contact list in WhatsApp with all of your data in FB, all without explicitly sharing your phone number. Even better, I now can match up all your friends, and all of their likes and dislikes, and make some educated guesses about what your likes and dislikes are. Hashing, long story short: put some data in, like a phone number, and get a unique, unguessable strong back -- the same string, every time. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_hash_function https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_hash_functio...
SimonPStevens 10y ago
Funny how times change... Some quotes from a What's App blog post from 4 years ago titled "Why we don't sell ads"[0] "Remember, when advertising is involved you the user are the product." "Your data isn't even in the picture. We are simply not interested in any of it." "When people ask us why we charge for WhatsApp, we say "Have you considered the alternative?" So they aren't showing ads themselves, but they are shipping your data out to another entity that is. Seems worse to me. [0] - https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads?
- PUSH_AX 10y ago
  The price also changed.
- chinathrow 10y ago
  I don't think they ship your data elsewhere - I think they allow the users to opt-in for more communication by others, as said, e.g. the users bank. Though I have to admit, the opt-in is not mentioned as such. Edit: F*CK. It's opt out. https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 That won't be legal in some european countries...
- joeyspn 10y ago
  $22B gives you enough bang for acquihiring a team and also their moral values. The vilified philosopher Groucho Marx once said: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Sad but very common these days...
  - ChuckMcM 10y ago
    Interesting question is if you sell out your app for a ton of cash, there isn't any structural issue preventing remaking it in the pre-sold out version (well maybe the original authors sign a doc that says they won't but others don't). So in theory you all can move another service with morals intact. But that is "hard" because your friends don't feel like moving. So the moralist says to their friends, "fine but I won't chat on whatsapp" and then they find their friends like them but not enough to change the app they use. So the moralist now has no friends (or they are always grumpy because their friends chose convienience over privacy) and they have to vent that frustration on the people who sold out. It is a really interconnected set of issues, where the simplest person to blame is often not the actual problem.
bprasanna 10y ago
Finally Facebook is making use of WhatsApp! How much ever carefully worded blog it could be, my brain considers it as "we will customize your facebook ads based on your whatsapp posts"!
- luastoned 10y ago
  You don't seem to get end-to-end encryption.
  - lunula 10y ago
    Maybe they consider it works differently than advertised. The end-to-end encryption cannot be reviewed because the source is closed.
    - qznc 10y ago
      Nobody cares about the message contents. NSA, GCHQ, Facebook, advertisers, etc care about the meta data, more specifically your social network.
- blockross 10y ago
  I doubt they will use our messages because you know, e2e encryption. This (very carefully worded) blog post only mentions using our phone numbers. Facebook has them, as well as a surprising number of advertisers and they'll be able to use it to determine more precisely your interests/needs/buys (because advertisers get your number from various sources like restaurants, shops, garages, etc.) and tailor their ads using that.
  - CalRobert 10y ago
    At what point do phone numbers become obsolete? Considering that I basically never call anyone, or receive calls (I do use voice communication but it's all voip), and that nobody where I live now uses SMS, what's even the point of that number?
tdkl 10y ago
Seems that the endgame now when end to end encryption is well known, desirable and serves as a product advertisement, that they'll just go after metadata and focus on that instead.
JOnAgain 10y ago
I don't get this part: "We won’t post or share your WhatsApp number with others, including on Facebook" and then "And by connecting your phone number with Facebook's systems, Facebook can offer better friend suggestions and show you more relevant ads if you have an account with them" How are they matching up accounts without sharing my phone number with Facebook?
- jamiesonbecker 10y ago
  It's just hashed. I.e., pick a unique number that matches your phone number and just always use that one instead, because the value in your phone number is not the functionality of calling you, but matching you up with all of your other metadata, content, "Likes", etc. So the goal isn't to sell YOU. You are boring and prosaic. No advertiser cares about you personally. We'll make money by selling your likes and who you're connected to in this fuzzy, aggregate format. Advertisers want to sell to a group of people who look just like you.
  - lorenzhs 10y ago
    > It's just hashed but the key space is way too small for a hash to be a meaningful anonymization mechanism. It's too easy to build a rainbow table for possible phone numbers.
    - xapata 10y ago
      How do you know what hashing algorithm is being used? And what salt?
      - JshWright 10y ago
        The algorithm and salt are irrelevant. There are only so many phone numbers... You could brute force the hash of a phone number in seconds on any modern computer.
        SEMW 10y ago
jamiesonbecker 10y ago
Hashing your phone number and linking it with other phone numbers (also hashed) meets all of their promises and yet still allows them to build an object graph of who's connected to whom, who communicates when, how often, and with whom, and match all that data with what's in facebook already with the data that's in your address book on your phone, even if you never install the FB app... metadata, all the way down.
daemin 10y ago
So basically they're going in the direction of WeChat. People won't see advertising, but businesses will pay to let you interact with them on the WhatsApp platform.
gergles 10y ago
> https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 That "Option 1" optout is the darkest dark pattern I've ever seen. A secret hidden checkbox that only shows up if you tap "yes, I'd like read 2000 words of legal jargon", which doesn't do anything anyway, because either way Facebook is getting your phone number. They just might choose not to use it for ad targeting if you check the box. Gross, gross, gross. Also, has anyone else noticed "to fight spam and abuse" is the "think of the children" of Internet services? Any invasive technique (SMS verification, browser fingerprinting, trying to sniff out unique hardware hashes, DRM) is always presented as "fighting spammers". Just an interesting sidebar.
- mtgx 10y ago
  > because either way Facebook is getting your phone number. Correction - Facebook already got your numbers (and has been doing recommendations based on them). I've been noticing Facebook recommendations based on Whatsapp numbers I have for many months. So they already have the numbers. But they're probably legally obliged to announce it in a privacy policy change that they will use them to target ads at you.
  - kingosticks 10y ago
    They surely do have my numbers i.e the phone numbers in my address book (for other people), but do they actually have my number? Every time I visit the facebook website i get a popup asking me to update my profile with my phone number. Note that I do not have the facebook app installed.
    - newscracker 10y ago
      Even in your case, there are some possible ways for Facebook to know your number. People on your "friends" list may have allowed Facebook to sync their contacts (and allowed continuous sync) from their address books on email accounts or with the Facebook app on their devices. Especially if any of them are or were using a version of Android older than Marshmallow (6.x), where app permissions are/were granted at installation time on an "grant all or can't-use-the-app" basis, here are the permissions they have definitely granted the Facebook application [1]: * Contacts find accounts on the device read your contacts modify your contacts * Phone directly call phone numbers read call log read phone status and identity write call log Even if different people in your address book use slightly different names to refer to you in their address books, it wouldn't take a lot for Facebook to figure out what your number is. And just because Facebook asks you for your number, it does not mean it isn't using information obtained from others. [1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.katana https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.k... (Check the Permissions section at the bottom of the app page and click on "View details" to see the list of permissions it asks for.)
philliphaydon 10y ago
Good thing Asia uses Line more than What's App.
- srinathrajaram 10y ago
  India is one of the largest markets for Whatsapp.
  - philliphaydon 10y ago
    Never been to India. But Thailand, Cambodia, Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, all use LINE. (and whatsapp) but I have 2 conversations on WhatsApp and dozens on LINE. Granted I don't know anyone in Australia/New Zealand using LINE. (I live in Singapore)
    - robjan 10y ago
      Asia is much bigger than Thailand, Cambodia, Singapore, Japan and Taiwan; so the statement "Good thing Asia uses Line more than What's App." is incorrect. Also, WhatsApp is still more popular in SG than Line amongst the local population.
ap46 10y ago
FUCK THIS! https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads? The only reason I hang onto it is that someone with my contact number might send me something & I still need my cell number to access it otherwise.
- danielsamuels 10y ago
  How much were you paying for Whatsapp then, how much are you paying now?
  - chukye 10y ago
    I do not mind to pay, as long as they dont share my phone number and dont show me ads.
    - dx034 10y ago
      From what I read in the article they don't want to show ads in Whatsapp, they only want to use your meta data to target FB ads. If your whatsapp number is not on Facebook that shouldn't be an issue..
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Who said WhatsApp customers suddenly became unwilling to pay? As opposed to FB/WhatsApp looking for other (ad companies) customers? If I pay for a service membership and then you make it free, that doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want with my data.
fiatjaf 10y ago
They could sell access to a business API: just a way for business to communicate with users from corporate numbers accessed through an API, instead of forcing companies to respond to customers by hiring an employee to type text on a phone. This could also power things like https://getmagicnow.com/ https://getmagicnow.com/ on Whatsapp.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
kbart 10y ago
I deleted my WhatsApp account and uninstalled it from my phone the same day Facebook bought it. It was a only a matter of time when WhatsApp becomes another data collection and ad delivery platform.
shklnrj 10y ago
So I get the following from the post- * we wont advertise, but we would expose the data to Facebook and they would, see we are still awesome! Anyways, can someone help me in understanding how businesses would contact a person via Whatsapp?
rcarmo 10y ago
The writing's been on the wall for quite some time, so this isn't really news -- more of a clarification, really, written with reassurance for the average user in mind. I see a lot of negative pushback here on HN, but here in Europe WhatsApp is pretty much universally used -- not to ludicrous extents, but simply because it's always been a usable, reliable service. Stuff like Viber caught on in some places, Telegram seems to be used only by techies, and Facebook Messenger seems to be rather hit and miss. Despite a lot of reservations, I started using WhatsApp because the peer pressure was unsustainable -- family, friends, colleagues (at three companies), etc., everyone uses it, and to me it has the saving grace of (unlike FB messenger) not being updated every month with frilly, useless features (although they never seem to get around to adding quick replies on Apple Watch, and the lock screen replies on iOS still fail). I'd probably be happy with SMS and iMessage, but the truth is that I _never_ get any messages through either (except for banks and the odd URL sent from an iPad)...
thewhitetulip 10y ago
I can not prove it, but I feel github/google and fb has something of a deal. I communicated with a guy on github and gmail for a project, I got his recommendation as a friend on facebook. He lives million miles away from me, have never met him, have 0 mutual friends, yet there he pops up, since then I have never used facebook on my personal laptop.
- dougk16 10y ago
  I've had similar situations and my assumption is that the other person looked me up on facebook and that's how the connection was established. Still creepy but seems more probable than facebook infiltrating my other communication channels.
- msh 10y ago
  He probably shared his email contacts with fb.
  - thewhitetulip 10y ago
    Well, I am sure I wouldn't be in his email contacts, but maybe he shares his email stuff with fb. Spooky, I stopped using facebook since then :-D Rarely do I use it these days. had to login to check the deepmask demo :P
- 2almalki 10y ago
  I think if you were logged into fb, and checked out the guys github, and github has fb widgets on his page, then it can make the connection. IIRC linkedin did/does the same thing for mapping where you went. I run ghostry to block widgets/analytics, and uBlock origin for adds take this with a trunk load of salt.. idk if its right..
- gurkendoktor 10y ago
  Since you've communicated about a project, it's pretty likely they have googled your name and clicked your Facebook profile in the Google results, or looked you up directly on Facebook. Should be pretty easy to reproduce with a throwaway profile, and it's much more likely than a deal between GitHub or Google and Facebook.
nbevans 10y ago
I expected this blog post to be launching their API - which is now, what, about 3 or 4 years overdue? But alas no - just some privacy encroachment changes to their T&Cs...
reacharavindh 10y ago
I really really really wish there was a IM messenger as ubiquitous,simple,sensible as WhatsApp that I can pay a reasonable dollar for and expect sensible privacy. I'm using fast mail instead of Gmail, I'm using self-developed sync scripts instead of Dropbox, What can I use instead of WhatsApp?
- Propen 10y ago
  Dropbox alternative: https://tresorit.com/ https://tresorit.com/ WhatsApp alternative: https://whispersystems.org/ https://whispersystems.org/
  - reacharavindh 10y ago
    Thanks for the link to tresorit. Will check it out. I checked out WhisperSystems. Signal (their iOS app) needs access to Contacts to work. Why?! (1) Why should I trust them with my contacts that I'm NOT reaching through their App, (2) Smells the same like WhatsApp where it is only a matter of time, where they sell out and start selling my contacts for "correlation" value at least. Cross posting this rant as a ask HN post.
laurent123456 10y ago
All these new features is basically them trying to become the new WeChat, where we'll have one central place to manage all our digital needs (buying tickets, paying bills, getting notifications from the bank, etc.) [0] [0] http://www.economist.com/news/business/21703428-chinas-wechat-shows-way-social-medias-future-wechats-world http://www.economist.com/news/business/21703428-chinas-wecha...
altern8 10y ago
Is there any advantage to the user from getting communications via Whatsapp versus via SMS or email?
noahmbarr 10y ago
Even the blog title has the stench of BS - "Looking ahead for WhatsApp"
wst_ 10y ago
The problem with switching into better IM is that all your friends and family should switch as well. Considering that most of people does not understand a privacy issues today and do not care about security, it is an extremely though task. You may be using state of art encrypted connection, but it would not help much if you have no one to talk to.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 10y ago
  It also doesn't help that all the privacy-aware tools suck. I was using Signal, but it was sufficiently unreliable that I was now forced to sign up for WhatsApp because Signal was practically unusable. And usability-wise, WhatsApp is sadly miles better than anything else I've seen, especially Signal. Great call quality, automatically reconnects (with an audible hint that the connection is down) instead of silently dropping your call, at least appears to work more reliably than Signal where recently about half of my call attempts failed and message delivery is pretty much random. Also supports read receipts. I won't even get started about XMPP where clients act out in ways that would make any non-geeky person immediately stop using it. Even for the more privacy-aware people, there is a limit to the brokenness that a person can tolerate. It's great that other messengers provide more privacy, but all that's pretty useless if they fail at fulfilling their main task. And that's before the network effect you mentioned.
kartickv 10y ago
As a counterpoint to the rest of the comments, I'm probably better off with WhatsApp than plain SMS, which the Indian government has access to. I'll pick Facebook spying over government spying. Other networks are not an option, since WhatsApp is the universal choice.
michaeloblak 10y ago
WhatsApp, if you want to make your platform for business, just open your API.
MrBra 10y ago
So, do they have my number if I agreed to the new terms but I didn't set my telephone number inside FB?

210 points by edmorley 10y ago

kirkdouglas 10y ago

Time to use something else...

gshakir 10y ago

I and some of my friends foresaw this day and used Google voice numbers. Still, time to look for an alternative.

miend 10y ago
https://whispersystems.org https://whispersystems.org Open Whisper Systems' Signal is an open-source, end-to-end encrypted messaging client which can handle your regular SMS/MMS traffic, as well as (better) encrypted text communication between any number of Signal users, and encrypted voice calls. It not only encrypts content in transit, but stores it encrypted on your device as well. It has clients for iOS and Android. It also has a beta desktop app in the form of a Chrome app which can sync with your phone. https://theintercept.com/2016/06/22/battle-of-the-secure-messaging-apps-how-signal-beats-whatsapp/ https://theintercept.com/2016/06/22/battle-of-the-secure-mes...

celticninja 10y ago

What if I don't have a Facebook account? Are they still tracking my phone number?

pawadu 10y ago
Well, the latest trend is that you don't need an account to be tracked and spammed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12335168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12335168
tommeader 10y ago
It doesn't really clarify it at all but there is a question like this in their FAQs https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/28030012 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/28030012 about half way down or so.
srinathrajaram 10y ago
If you use an app that displays ads from Facebook, then most probably yes.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

pidg 10y ago

> [We'll] show you more relevant ads if you have an account with them. For example, you might see an ad from a company you already work with, rather than one from someone you've never heard of. I'm not sure WhatsApp understand why people advertise.

jasongill 10y ago
I'm not sure you understand the modern advertising landscape... Reminding customers of your brand and products through retargeting is very big business
- dx034 10y ago
  That works for regular purchases, but not for every company. I recently bought a car and did extensive research prior to the purchase. Basically from the day I bought the car (and stopped searching) they started showing me ads. It's 2 months ago and I still see barely anything else. Doesn't seem very effective..
  - iamben 10y ago
    That's an attribution problem rather than a retargeting one. A long period of research prior to car purchasing is well documented[1] - the problem you have here is the conversion hasn't been connected to the retargeting. If they had an efficient way of saying "Excellent - after 10 weeks of research dx034 has actually bought the Audi" they could switch you off. Until that's noted, or you drop out of the 'this is the longest period people are likely to shop for' bucket, you're going to see the ads. [1] https://www.thinkwithgoogle.com/research-studies/zmot-auto-study.html https://www.thinkwithgoogle.com/research-studies/zmot-auto-s...
DavidNielsen 10y ago
In that case it would lessen the chance of a competitor gaining access to your eyeballs, not a bad bargain in some cases.
- 10y ago

hengheng 10y ago

I used to be able to pay for WhatsApp. Those were the days.

carmat 10y ago

This title is very misleading to the point that it's the exact opposite of what the post says: "We won’t post or share your WhatsApp number with others, including on Facebook, and we still won't sell, share, or give your phone number to advertisers."

RodericDay 10y ago
> including on Facebook not with
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- rilut 10y ago
  >> including on Facebook > not with Wow that is cleverly evil

onewaystreet 10y ago

The post says the exact opposite of the title: > Even as we coordinate more with Facebook in the months ahead, your encrypted messages stay private and no one else can read them. Not WhatsApp, not Facebook, nor anyone else. We won’t post or share your WhatsApp number with others, including on Facebook, and we still won't sell, share, or give your phone number to advertisers. Edit: That paragraph relates to your WhatsApp number. It is true that they do plan to share your phone number that you signed up with. You can opt-out though: https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016

thwd 10y ago
That's just clever wording. > We won’t post or share your WhatsApp number with others, including _ON_ Facebook. Is just saying that your number won't be visible to your facebook peeps. Which does not mean that Facebook (the company) won't get access to it.
denzil_correa 10y ago
> You can opt-out though: https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 This is a dark pattern. In fact, once you say "Agree" you only have 30 days to opt-out. > After you agree to our updated Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, you will have an additional 30 days to make this choice by going to Settings > Account > Share my account info in the app. I can't see such an option.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- cholantesh 10y ago
  Interesting that the opt-out link now leads to a 444...
  - denzil_correa 10y ago
    On the web or on the phone? It works on the web for me.

wigginus 10y ago

As far as I read correctly, you can opt out of this: https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
uitgewis 10y ago
There is no such option in the iPhone app (2.16.9 / 15 Aug 2016).
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  Once you say "Agree" you only have 30 days to opt-out. > After you agree to our updated Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, you will have an additional 30 days to make this choice by going to Settings > Account > Share my account info in the app. I can't see the option either.
  - sdoering 10y ago
    This will probably be pushed with the next update, when you have to re-agree with the terms of service.
    - denzil_correa 10y ago
      I do not remember receiving any agreement to ToS on a new update.

juandazapata 10y ago

The irony in their homepage is so good: ---------------- > Why we don't sell ads Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we dont need. - Tyler Durden, Fight Club

longsangstan 10y ago
Basically the whole blog post is talking about what Facebook is doing lol

uitgewis 10y ago

Is there any way to keep WhatsApp and Facebook separate? It seems that either a) I use WhatsApp and have Facebook collect my data, or b) don't use WhatsApp. There seems to be a complete lack of choice with what they do with my data.

lunula 10y ago
You can use other messaging services. But the one you use may get bought up. They are fickle. Why isn't there a popular p2p solution to messaging (other than email)?
- ffggvv 10y ago
  Email is not p2p. And building an encrypted p2p is technically hard. Building a p2p even without encryption has UX problems. The other problem is how to make money from it? What's the incentive (for a private) to build it?

Kenji 10y ago

I uninstalled WhatsApp the moment it was bought by facebook. It's so obvious that facebook corrupts this fantastic company/chat application.

luastoned 10y ago
How did Facebook corrupt WhatsApp? Pre-Facebook there was no end-to-end encryption, etc..
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > How did Facebook corrupt WhatsApp? Previously WhatsApp had subscriptions ($1/yr) and were proudly ad-free. Facebook scrapped subscriptions and is about to add Ads. WhatsApp also never shared your number with anyone; sharing your number with advertisers is undoubtedly corrupting WhatsApp.
  - 8ytecoder 10y ago
    Yeah, I actually paid for the 3 year subscription. Now I can't even see the option. It was a big differentiator in my opinion. Their logic was sound too - even at $1 a user they could make a $1bn a year. (Even in developing countries - because of the networking effect - people would have paid that modest fee.)
- ffggvv 10y ago
  Did you see the source code of WhatsApp? Do you know somebody that saw it? They can tell all they want, but I won't trust them until I (or someone I trust, e.g. Debian, FSF, etc.) see the code. Also being end to end encrypted does not block whatsapp from censoring you or your friends/family! See how they "disabled" links to telegram https://orat.io/blog/as-of-today-whatsapp-is-blocking-telegram-links/ https://orat.io/blog/as-of-today-whatsapp-is-blocking-telegr... and removed the telegram page from facebook.
  - fiatjaf 10y ago
    It seems the end-to-end encryption was done by OpenWhisperSystems.

Renaud 10y ago

> we want to explore ways for you to communicate with businesses that matter to you too Empty marketing speak, that sentence has zero information content. It just leaves me vaguely worried that they don't seem to be up-front with whatever they are about to do. I'm just glad that FB doesn't have my number and doesn't have access to my contact list.

aembleton 10y ago
If any of your Facebook friends have your number and have synced their contact list, then they do have you number.
- Renaud 10y ago
  But Facebook will not know it's me because FB doesn't have my number. At worst, all FB know is that some people have my Whatsapp number. That doesn't help FB serve targeted ads to my FB account.
  - eric_the_read 10y ago
    FB is constantly popping up a message to me saying, "Is (xxx) xxx-xxxx your phone number? Confirm it now to secure your account" despite the fact that I have never given them my phone #, nor ever used Whatsapp. I'm sure they know perfectly well it's you, they just aren't (for whatever reason) doing anything about it yet.
jamiesonbecker 10y ago
If you've installed WhatsApp, then they do. If I hash your number that you installed whatsapp on and get X, and then hash your number in Facebook and get X, and then realize that X == X, then I just matched your contact list in WhatsApp with all of your data in FB, all without explicitly sharing your phone number. Even better, I now can match up all your friends, and all of their likes and dislikes, and make some educated guesses about what your likes and dislikes are. Hashing, long story short: put some data in, like a phone number, and get a unique, unguessable strong back -- the same string, every time. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_hash_function https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_hash_functio...

SimonPStevens 10y ago

Funny how times change... Some quotes from a What's App blog post from 4 years ago titled "Why we don't sell ads"[0] "Remember, when advertising is involved you the user are the product." "Your data isn't even in the picture. We are simply not interested in any of it." "When people ask us why we charge for WhatsApp, we say "Have you considered the alternative?" So they aren't showing ads themselves, but they are shipping your data out to another entity that is. Seems worse to me. [0] - https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads?

PUSH_AX 10y ago
The price also changed.
chinathrow 10y ago
I don't think they ship your data elsewhere - I think they allow the users to opt-in for more communication by others, as said, e.g. the users bank. Though I have to admit, the opt-in is not mentioned as such. Edit: F*CK. It's opt out. https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 That won't be legal in some european countries...
joeyspn 10y ago
$22B gives you enough bang for acquihiring a team and also their moral values. The vilified philosopher Groucho Marx once said: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Sad but very common these days...
- ChuckMcM 10y ago
  Interesting question is if you sell out your app for a ton of cash, there isn't any structural issue preventing remaking it in the pre-sold out version (well maybe the original authors sign a doc that says they won't but others don't). So in theory you all can move another service with morals intact. But that is "hard" because your friends don't feel like moving. So the moralist says to their friends, "fine but I won't chat on whatsapp" and then they find their friends like them but not enough to change the app they use. So the moralist now has no friends (or they are always grumpy because their friends chose convienience over privacy) and they have to vent that frustration on the people who sold out. It is a really interconnected set of issues, where the simplest person to blame is often not the actual problem.

bprasanna 10y ago

Finally Facebook is making use of WhatsApp! How much ever carefully worded blog it could be, my brain considers it as "we will customize your facebook ads based on your whatsapp posts"!

luastoned 10y ago
You don't seem to get end-to-end encryption.
- lunula 10y ago
  Maybe they consider it works differently than advertised. The end-to-end encryption cannot be reviewed because the source is closed.
  - qznc 10y ago
    Nobody cares about the message contents. NSA, GCHQ, Facebook, advertisers, etc care about the meta data, more specifically your social network.
blockross 10y ago
I doubt they will use our messages because you know, e2e encryption. This (very carefully worded) blog post only mentions using our phone numbers. Facebook has them, as well as a surprising number of advertisers and they'll be able to use it to determine more precisely your interests/needs/buys (because advertisers get your number from various sources like restaurants, shops, garages, etc.) and tailor their ads using that.
- CalRobert 10y ago
  At what point do phone numbers become obsolete? Considering that I basically never call anyone, or receive calls (I do use voice communication but it's all voip), and that nobody where I live now uses SMS, what's even the point of that number?

tdkl 10y ago

Seems that the endgame now when end to end encryption is well known, desirable and serves as a product advertisement, that they'll just go after metadata and focus on that instead.

JOnAgain 10y ago

I don't get this part: "We won’t post or share your WhatsApp number with others, including on Facebook" and then "And by connecting your phone number with Facebook's systems, Facebook can offer better friend suggestions and show you more relevant ads if you have an account with them" How are they matching up accounts without sharing my phone number with Facebook?

jamiesonbecker 10y ago
It's just hashed. I.e., pick a unique number that matches your phone number and just always use that one instead, because the value in your phone number is not the functionality of calling you, but matching you up with all of your other metadata, content, "Likes", etc. So the goal isn't to sell YOU. You are boring and prosaic. No advertiser cares about you personally. We'll make money by selling your likes and who you're connected to in this fuzzy, aggregate format. Advertisers want to sell to a group of people who look just like you.
- lorenzhs 10y ago
  > It's just hashed but the key space is way too small for a hash to be a meaningful anonymization mechanism. It's too easy to build a rainbow table for possible phone numbers.
  - xapata 10y ago
    How do you know what hashing algorithm is being used? And what salt?
    - JshWright 10y ago
      The algorithm and salt are irrelevant. There are only so many phone numbers... You could brute force the hash of a phone number in seconds on any modern computer.
      - SEMW 10y ago

jamiesonbecker 10y ago

Hashing your phone number and linking it with other phone numbers (also hashed) meets all of their promises and yet still allows them to build an object graph of who's connected to whom, who communicates when, how often, and with whom, and match all that data with what's in facebook already with the data that's in your address book on your phone, even if you never install the FB app... metadata, all the way down.

daemin 10y ago

So basically they're going in the direction of WeChat. People won't see advertising, but businesses will pay to let you interact with them on the WhatsApp platform.

gergles 10y ago

> https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016 That "Option 1" optout is the darkest dark pattern I've ever seen. A secret hidden checkbox that only shows up if you tap "yes, I'd like read 2000 words of legal jargon", which doesn't do anything anyway, because either way Facebook is getting your phone number. They just might choose not to use it for ad targeting if you check the box. Gross, gross, gross. Also, has anyone else noticed "to fight spam and abuse" is the "think of the children" of Internet services? Any invasive technique (SMS verification, browser fingerprinting, trying to sniff out unique hardware hashes, DRM) is always presented as "fighting spammers". Just an interesting sidebar.

mtgx 10y ago
> because either way Facebook is getting your phone number. Correction - Facebook already got your numbers (and has been doing recommendations based on them). I've been noticing Facebook recommendations based on Whatsapp numbers I have for many months. So they already have the numbers. But they're probably legally obliged to announce it in a privacy policy change that they will use them to target ads at you.
- kingosticks 10y ago
  They surely do have my numbers i.e the phone numbers in my address book (for other people), but do they actually have my number? Every time I visit the facebook website i get a popup asking me to update my profile with my phone number. Note that I do not have the facebook app installed.
  - newscracker 10y ago
    Even in your case, there are some possible ways for Facebook to know your number. People on your "friends" list may have allowed Facebook to sync their contacts (and allowed continuous sync) from their address books on email accounts or with the Facebook app on their devices. Especially if any of them are or were using a version of Android older than Marshmallow (6.x), where app permissions are/were granted at installation time on an "grant all or can't-use-the-app" basis, here are the permissions they have definitely granted the Facebook application [1]: * Contacts find accounts on the device read your contacts modify your contacts * Phone directly call phone numbers read call log read phone status and identity write call log Even if different people in your address book use slightly different names to refer to you in their address books, it wouldn't take a lot for Facebook to figure out what your number is. And just because Facebook asks you for your number, it does not mean it isn't using information obtained from others. [1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.katana https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.k... (Check the Permissions section at the bottom of the app page and click on "View details" to see the list of permissions it asks for.)

philliphaydon 10y ago

Good thing Asia uses Line more than What's App.

srinathrajaram 10y ago
India is one of the largest markets for Whatsapp.
- philliphaydon 10y ago
  Never been to India. But Thailand, Cambodia, Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, all use LINE. (and whatsapp) but I have 2 conversations on WhatsApp and dozens on LINE. Granted I don't know anyone in Australia/New Zealand using LINE. (I live in Singapore)
  - robjan 10y ago
    Asia is much bigger than Thailand, Cambodia, Singapore, Japan and Taiwan; so the statement "Good thing Asia uses Line more than What's App." is incorrect. Also, WhatsApp is still more popular in SG than Line amongst the local population.

ap46 10y ago

FUCK THIS! https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads? The only reason I hang onto it is that someone with my contact number might send me something & I still need my cell number to access it otherwise.

danielsamuels 10y ago
How much were you paying for Whatsapp then, how much are you paying now?
- chukye 10y ago
  I do not mind to pay, as long as they dont share my phone number and dont show me ads.
  - dx034 10y ago
    From what I read in the article they don't want to show ads in Whatsapp, they only want to use your meta data to target FB ads. If your whatsapp number is not on Facebook that shouldn't be an issue..
- coldtea 10y ago
  Who said WhatsApp customers suddenly became unwilling to pay? As opposed to FB/WhatsApp looking for other (ad companies) customers? If I pay for a service membership and then you make it free, that doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want with my data.

fiatjaf 10y ago

They could sell access to a business API: just a way for business to communicate with users from corporate numbers accessed through an API, instead of forcing companies to respond to customers by hiring an employee to type text on a phone. This could also power things like https://getmagicnow.com/ https://getmagicnow.com/ on Whatsapp.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

kbart 10y ago

I deleted my WhatsApp account and uninstalled it from my phone the same day Facebook bought it. It was a only a matter of time when WhatsApp becomes another data collection and ad delivery platform.

shklnrj 10y ago

So I get the following from the post- * we wont advertise, but we would expose the data to Facebook and they would, see we are still awesome! Anyways, can someone help me in understanding how businesses would contact a person via Whatsapp?

rcarmo 10y ago

The writing's been on the wall for quite some time, so this isn't really news -- more of a clarification, really, written with reassurance for the average user in mind. I see a lot of negative pushback here on HN, but here in Europe WhatsApp is pretty much universally used -- not to ludicrous extents, but simply because it's always been a usable, reliable service. Stuff like Viber caught on in some places, Telegram seems to be used only by techies, and Facebook Messenger seems to be rather hit and miss. Despite a lot of reservations, I started using WhatsApp because the peer pressure was unsustainable -- family, friends, colleagues (at three companies), etc., everyone uses it, and to me it has the saving grace of (unlike FB messenger) not being updated every month with frilly, useless features (although they never seem to get around to adding quick replies on Apple Watch, and the lock screen replies on iOS still fail). I'd probably be happy with SMS and iMessage, but the truth is that I _never_ get any messages through either (except for banks and the odd URL sent from an iPad)...

thewhitetulip 10y ago

I can not prove it, but I feel github/google and fb has something of a deal. I communicated with a guy on github and gmail for a project, I got his recommendation as a friend on facebook. He lives million miles away from me, have never met him, have 0 mutual friends, yet there he pops up, since then I have never used facebook on my personal laptop.

dougk16 10y ago
I've had similar situations and my assumption is that the other person looked me up on facebook and that's how the connection was established. Still creepy but seems more probable than facebook infiltrating my other communication channels.
msh 10y ago
He probably shared his email contacts with fb.
- thewhitetulip 10y ago
  Well, I am sure I wouldn't be in his email contacts, but maybe he shares his email stuff with fb. Spooky, I stopped using facebook since then :-D Rarely do I use it these days. had to login to check the deepmask demo :P
2almalki 10y ago
I think if you were logged into fb, and checked out the guys github, and github has fb widgets on his page, then it can make the connection. IIRC linkedin did/does the same thing for mapping where you went. I run ghostry to block widgets/analytics, and uBlock origin for adds take this with a trunk load of salt.. idk if its right..
gurkendoktor 10y ago
Since you've communicated about a project, it's pretty likely they have googled your name and clicked your Facebook profile in the Google results, or looked you up directly on Facebook. Should be pretty easy to reproduce with a throwaway profile, and it's much more likely than a deal between GitHub or Google and Facebook.

nbevans 10y ago

I expected this blog post to be launching their API - which is now, what, about 3 or 4 years overdue? But alas no - just some privacy encroachment changes to their T&Cs...

reacharavindh 10y ago

I really really really wish there was a IM messenger as ubiquitous,simple,sensible as WhatsApp that I can pay a reasonable dollar for and expect sensible privacy. I'm using fast mail instead of Gmail, I'm using self-developed sync scripts instead of Dropbox, What can I use instead of WhatsApp?

Propen 10y ago
Dropbox alternative: https://tresorit.com/ https://tresorit.com/ WhatsApp alternative: https://whispersystems.org/ https://whispersystems.org/
- reacharavindh 10y ago
  Thanks for the link to tresorit. Will check it out. I checked out WhisperSystems. Signal (their iOS app) needs access to Contacts to work. Why?! (1) Why should I trust them with my contacts that I'm NOT reaching through their App, (2) Smells the same like WhatsApp where it is only a matter of time, where they sell out and start selling my contacts for "correlation" value at least. Cross posting this rant as a ask HN post.

laurent123456 10y ago

All these new features is basically them trying to become the new WeChat, where we'll have one central place to manage all our digital needs (buying tickets, paying bills, getting notifications from the bank, etc.) [0] [0] http://www.economist.com/news/business/21703428-chinas-wechat-shows-way-social-medias-future-wechats-world http://www.economist.com/news/business/21703428-chinas-wecha...

altern8 10y ago

Is there any advantage to the user from getting communications via Whatsapp versus via SMS or email?

noahmbarr 10y ago

Even the blog title has the stench of BS - "Looking ahead for WhatsApp"

wst_ 10y ago

The problem with switching into better IM is that all your friends and family should switch as well. Considering that most of people does not understand a privacy issues today and do not care about security, it is an extremely though task. You may be using state of art encrypted connection, but it would not help much if you have no one to talk to.

tgsovlerkhgsel 10y ago
It also doesn't help that all the privacy-aware tools suck. I was using Signal, but it was sufficiently unreliable that I was now forced to sign up for WhatsApp because Signal was practically unusable. And usability-wise, WhatsApp is sadly miles better than anything else I've seen, especially Signal. Great call quality, automatically reconnects (with an audible hint that the connection is down) instead of silently dropping your call, at least appears to work more reliably than Signal where recently about half of my call attempts failed and message delivery is pretty much random. Also supports read receipts. I won't even get started about XMPP where clients act out in ways that would make any non-geeky person immediately stop using it. Even for the more privacy-aware people, there is a limit to the brokenness that a person can tolerate. It's great that other messengers provide more privacy, but all that's pretty useless if they fail at fulfilling their main task. And that's before the network effect you mentioned.

kartickv 10y ago

As a counterpoint to the rest of the comments, I'm probably better off with WhatsApp than plain SMS, which the Indian government has access to. I'll pick Facebook spying over government spying. Other networks are not an option, since WhatsApp is the universal choice.

michaeloblak 10y ago

WhatsApp, if you want to make your platform for business, just open your API.

MrBra 10y ago

So, do they have my number if I agreed to the new terms but I didn't set my telephone number inside FB?