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Bay Area Startups Find Low-Cost Outposts in Arizona
- fernly 10y agoThere are so many economical, livable cities in the West within a 2-4 hour flight of SFO or SJC. Seattle is already too expensive, and I find Phoenix quite unpleasant, but Portland, Eugene (go Ducks!), Corvallis (go Beavs!), Spokane/Pullman (go Cougs!), Boise, Reno are all civilized, attractive, and relatively economical places.
- bran-dog 10y agoPhoenix is a miserably hot place 7-8 months out of the year with cuckoo politics.
- x0x0 10y agoI just looked and it's 86.9F at 10:35pm. Ugh. Max temps for the 10 day forecast: 102, 100, 101, 103, 103, 98 (cool!), 101, 105, 107, 109 (!!!). You better like being indoors all the time.
- rblatz 10y agoYeah summer gets hot, but 86.9 at night isn't really hot. I wouldn't open my windows, but if you are outside it feels good. Yesterday my wife and I were walking around (in the shade) after getting coffee, and commented how nice out it felt. Turns out it was over 100 out. Desert heat feels different than any other heat I've felt.
- niftich 10y agoNight desert heat is a... unique experience that I too find enjoyable, but your air conditioner is running 24/7 to keep the house below 80. And in Phoenix, there is not enough night activities and/or legit nightlife to take advantage of pleasant nights as opposed to oppressive days. Scottsdale or Tempe may be a different story, but then you're driving anyway. Or you do live within walking distance, but then you're no longer paying Phoenix rents.
- rblatz 10y agoI live in south Scottsdale, I work in Phoenix roughly a 7 minute drive or maybe 20 minutes by bike on the canals. I'm not as familiar with downtown as I am Arcadia/South Scottsdale/Tempe. But I do love getting downtown for a change of pace.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- notadoc 10y agoScottsdale is really nice, Tempe is too but it's a younger crowd
- ladytron 10y agoThere is very little humidity here. I would say 88 degrees feel more like 72 degrees in a place that is not a desert environment. Also, when you live in Phoenix, your body changes and you truly do acclimate to the heat. Anything under 65 feels like below freezing after a few years of living anywhere that is warm year round.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- karma_vaccum123 10y agohot as a furnace and high crime rate
- ladytron 10y agoI would disagree. Phoenix weather is fabulous 8 months out of the year, from October until May. It is why we have world class luxury resorts and a huge tourism base. I agree that we have wacky politicians, but so does California! Our mayor Greg Stanton is pretty cool. He wants to encourage more investment in high tech industry.
- refurb 10y agowith cuckoo politics Compared to what? San Francisco?
- rblatz 10y agoPhoenix has great weather 7-8 months of the year. The summer sucks, no doubt, but the rest of the year is amazing. No natural disasters to worry about, the worst we get is a bit of flash flooding in low lying areas and dust storms. We also have great hiking, some of the best sunsets to be had, low cost of living.
- DamnYuppie 10y agoBoise is terrible, please don't move there. Sincerely Yours, Idaho
- cholantesh 10y agoThis is the first endorsement I've ever heard of Spokane. Has it changed in recent years?
- fernly 10y agoI've visited Spokane for weekends several times in the past decade, usually following the Stanford women's basketball team to games with WSU or regional tournaments. So I haven't any experience in living there, but for a tourist, Spokane's not large but it is very pleasant with a walkable downtown core centered on Riverfront Park and of recent years, several very decent restaurants. The airport is small but efficient with lots of flights to SEA and PDX and a few direct flights to SFO. Good highway connections in all directions. WSU is an intellectual asset, a major campus, but it is located a 90-minute freeway drive away in the smaller town of Pullman, which don't get much respect but isn't so bad either. Edit: Under the heading of intellectual asset, I completely forgot Gonzaga U, which puts some brain-power right in Spokane.
- davidw 10y agoPullman is out in the middle of a bunch of hills with wheat fields. Didn't strike me as having much besides that, whereas lots of other places mentioned have some pretty good outdoor activities.
- beauzero 10y agoNo. Choose Boise or Bozeman, MT.
- __derek__ 10y agoMy understanding is that Portland and Seattle have effectively the same cost of living thanks to the same boom in Cascadian urban real estate prices. Seattle is building, though, so it's possible that its costs will level off or at least grow more gradually.
- prodigal_erik 10y agoSeattle partly has San Francisco's problem; it's so boxed-in by geography that most available land is far away and hard to reach. Portland can grow if they decide they want to.
- davidw 10y agoSan Francisco's problem is disfunctional NIMBY politics. With real estate prices there, they absolutely have room to build up.
- notadoc 10y agoSeattle is cheaper than Portland at this point for being anywhere decent. Have friends in both and visit often, Portland has really jumped the shark and is very overrated. Also have a friend who just left Portland for San Diego because San Diego is now cheaper, and the weather isn't atrocious for 10 months. The other places you mention are little college towns without any industry, could be appropriate for people in their early 20s who have their own job to bring. Spokane and Pullman are really cheap, but they're in the middle of nowhere. Reno is probably the best of the bunch, it's nice and has more of an economy, plus it's a relatively short drive back to civilization and San Francisco. Some parts of Phoenix are really nice, as is Tucson, affordable, great weather, etc but the always-in-your-face abrasive politics of AZ can be off putting. It's a bit further out, but I think the South will be major growth areas for tech. Highly affordable, friendly people, good weather for most of the year, great cities and culture, etc.
- gee_totes 10y agoIs there any startup/hi-tech activity in Pullman besides Schweitzer?
- davidw 10y agoBend is really nice too, but getting expensive thanks to rapid growth and NIMBYism that mirrors that in the bay area. Way better climate, IMO, than west of the Cascades.
- xeromal 10y agoDon't forget Salt Lake City. Tons of jobs, low cost of living, and a great outdoor community.
- niftich 10y agoSome highlighted quotes: "This year, the company opened a downtown Phoenix office with sales and customer service jobs. “San Francisco is a terrible place for entry-level people,” Mr. Coburn said, because the infrastructure and housing are “failing.”" "But as the latest exodus gathers steam, these outlying cities hope some of the higher-paying engineering jobs will start moving as well. “We don’t want to be San Francisco’s back office — we need more creators here,”" This pretty much summarizes the article. Phoenix isn't yet seeing a mass influx of developer jobs, but it's hoping that because some companies already have offices there for other positions, they'll be able to lure some high-end talent as well.
- clumsysmurf 10y agoI lived in Phoenix area for almost 20 years. As Andrew Ross writes, Phoenix is one of the least sustainable cities in the world (1). Flowing from its corrupt politics and supply-side economics, I suspect AZ will go the same way (for some of the same reasons) as Sam Browback's Kansas / Bobby Jindal's Louisiana with huge structural revenue deficits. (1) https://www.amazon.com/Bird-Fire-Lessons-Worlds-Sustainable/dp/0199975523 https://www.amazon.com/Bird-Fire-Lessons-Worlds-Sustainable/...
- niftich 10y agoOne remarkable thing about Phoenix is that it's actually a very, very populous metro (currently the 12th most populous Metropolitan Statistical Area, just shy of the northern two-thirds of the Bay Area in 11th place [1]) in what's essentially the middle of nowhere -- and I'm not using this term as facetiously as you may suspect. Phoenix has poor connectivity to just about everywhere else, is on a detour (I-10) from the straight-line Tucson to San Diego road (I-8) and is skipped by Union Pacific's main railroad line between Yuma and El Paso. It's bypassed completely by I-40, the successor to the famous Route 66 as the road from the midwest to the California coast, and by BNSF's southern transcon that follows that route closely. The road linking it with its nearest big neighbor, Las Vegas, despite recently having been expanded to a divided highway, is still vastly short of an interstate [2]. To get towards Flagstaff or Prescott (or towards Vegas) you have to climb out of the Gila basin. And yet, despite these odds and the oppressive summer heat, the desert floor is covered in Phoenix' rectangular sprawl for nearly 50 consecutive miles. More so than perhaps any other large city, it creates it own demand just by the virtue of existing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistic... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_11#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_11#History
- mark_l_watson 10y agoI have lived in the mountains, about a two hour drive north of Phoenix, for 18 years. I love it here. My wife and I used to live near the beach in San Diego and the overcrowding and traffic made us want to leave. There is a lot to be said for low cost of living and beautiful and low population areas of the country. Travel is easy enough since I take a shuttle to the airport, I can work in transit. We lived in Mountain View in 2013 when I consulted at Google, and I admit that was fun living there for a while, but life is very good in inexpensive low population areas. BTW, the mountains in Central Arizona are significantly cooler than Phoenix and we get a little snow in the winter which is fun.
- wrong_variable 10y agoIsn't it really hot and sunny ?
- dikaiosune 10y agoThe Verde Valley area gets hot in the summer, but still ~20 degrees F cooler than the Phoenix area. About 2.5-3 hours north of Phoenix (north of the Mogollon rim, on Colorado plateau), our hot summer days are in the low 80s, and we regularly have several feet of snow in winter.
- niftich 10y agoFlagstaff is rather pleasant. Its elevation is 6900 feet. - Climate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagstaff,_Arizona#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagstaff,_Arizona#Climate - Visual glance at vegetation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Flagstaff_AZ_from_Mars_Hill.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Flagstaf... Further south, Prescott, at 5400 feet: - Climate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott,_Arizona#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott,_Arizona#Climate - Visual glance at vegetation: http://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-photo-downtown-prescott-arizona-aerial-view-80453635.jpg http://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-photo-downtown-prescot... versus, Phoenix, at 1100 feet - Climate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona#Climate - Visual glance at vegetation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/PhoenixDowntown.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/PhoenixD... (notice that the trees are all planted, as there are none on the mountains, and absent from less-prosperous residential areas)
- jakerockland 10y agoWe're excited to be building our startup here in Phoenix. 8 months out of the year, the weather is fantastic. Burn rate is much lower than it would be in/around SF, our money goes much farther here. Great large public research institutions at ASU/UA is a great outlet for finding talent.
- akarpur1 10y agoWe think Phoenix is a great place to start a company, and we're dedicated to building our business here. Here's why: https://blog.somaticlabs.io/scrappy-startup-turn-up-the-heat-in-phoenix/ https://blog.somaticlabs.io/scrappy-startup-turn-up-the-heat...
- __derek__ 10y agoThis reminds me of Tuft & Needle's pitch to set up shop in Phoenix rather than in Silicon Valley.[1] [1] https://m.tuftandneedle.com/if-you-re-building-a-startup-you-need-to-move-to-phoenix-not-silicon-valley-a7505318cd45 https://m.tuftandneedle.com/if-you-re-building-a-startup-you...
- skpeck 10y agoWhile yes, PHX metro is a more affordable option, no brand ever wants to be known as the low cost leader (we know this is never sustainable). Instead, my viewpoint as CEO of a young healthcare company is that PHX is ideal for us because of the industry experts in our space (aging) such as Banner Alzheimer's Institute and Barrow Neuro, access to our customer base (50+) and a theme of generosity of support for all startup founders. Then there's the development of new dev minds via our coding high schools, Galvanize, and UAT (as a few examples). Not to mention that this is the most livable place I've ever been.
- electrum 10y ago> no brand ever wants to be known as the low cost leader (we know this is never sustainable) I think Walmart would disagree with you on both.
- ladytron 10y agoPhoenix Startup Founder here. Central Phoenix is one of the best kept secrets in America - but after articles like this one the secret needs to get out. Central/downtown Phoenix, where many tech startups are located, allows a lifestyle and work environment that is unparalleled anywhere else in the country. Cutting edge/super cheap hacker space incubator wet/dry labs- http://www.ceigateway.com http://www.ceigateway.com, http://www.seedspot.com http://www.seedspot.com, http://www.cohoots.com http://www.cohoots.com Great coffee/art/music/community- http://www.luxcoffee.com http://www.luxcoffee.com, http://www.artlinkphoenix.com http://www.artlinkphoenix.com, http://www.rooseveltrow.org http://www.rooseveltrow.org, http://www.valleybarphx.com http://www.valleybarphx.com, http://www.crescentphx.com http://www.crescentphx.com Gorgeous, walk-able, affordable historic districts- http://www.willohistoricdistrict.com http://www.willohistoricdistrict.com, http://www.windsorsquarephoenix.com http://www.windsorsquarephoenix.com, http://www.rooseveltneighborhood.org http://www.rooseveltneighborhood.org July and August are the only months with truly hot weather, but San Francisco is a 90 minute flight away, and its a quick weekend trip to San Diego and LA, and a day trip to Flagstaff where its 30 degrees cooler. June and September bring cooler pleasant mornings and evenings, you are generally in your office midday anyway. October until May is truly gorgeous, the best weather in the country. Central Phoenix is one of the most liberal, inclusive, and open minded places in the country. Many from Phoenix are from someplace else originally so there is less of a nepotistic, "who you know" culture here than the Coasts. People here are extremely independent and very friendly. Comparing urban Central Phoenix, where most startups are located, to to other towns an hour or more away in more suburban/rural areas is similar to comparing Palo Alto to a small agricultural town outside Silicon Valley. Its apples and oranges.
- Ericson2314 10y agoThis makes me sad we don't do high density + low cost in the US.
- muzz 10y agoI always wonder what would have happened if the New York of the 1970s and 1980s turned out differently than it did
- rrdharan 10y agoI generally avoid travelling to Arizona because I'm likely to be racially profiled and I don't feel like carrying my proof of residency around with me at all times. I've had plenty enough of that in my life already and don't feel the need to reward a state that seems to actively encourage it with my tax dollars.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- kondor6c 10y agoDo you mean a drivers license? That should be sufficient. But you should go, if you get racially profiled, you have a lawsuit!
- kingryan 10y agoIn California you can get a DL without proof of legal residency.
- mce1123 10y agoThis is not the experience for AZ residents. Check it out and you'll find a welcoming and supportive community.
- zghst 10y agoThis is not true at all. This is a false, hysterical fear, I assure you Arizona is safe for everyone
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- pyre 10y agoTo all of the start-ups that want to base themselves out of Phoenix: How do you plan on wooing applicants that may fall victim to racial profiling because they are within 100 miles of the border, or that might end up in one of Sheriff Joe's tent camps just due to being accused of something (or looking at one of his deputies the wrong way). Do you not think that this limits your talent pool because many people of different ethnicities might not want to take the risk of relocating to such a hostile environment for them?
- leereeves 10y agoI've heard conservatives say similar things about the Bay Area, where they might be assaulted for supporting Trump and would probably be arrested for owning a gun. And to focus on something that will affect everyone, not partisan fears, in Phoenix mere mortals can actually afford to buy a home.
- pyre 10y agoYour "conservative fears" are not really based in reality though. Border patrol over-reach and Sheriff Joe's corruption are real things. Also, being wrongly convicted of a crime doesn't "affect everyone" but I would argue that doesn't mean we should ignore it.
- leereeves 10y agoAssaults against Trump supporters aren't real things in the Bay Area? http://www.eastbaytimes.com/breaking-news/ci_29976112/trump-protest-san-jose-police-chief-defends-officers http://www.eastbaytimes.com/breaking-news/ci_29976112/trump-... They're rare, as is being wrongly convicted (which can happen anywhere). But what really bothers conservatives is the idea that the police allowed it to happen. > Unless a victim's life was in peril or the violence was "spiraling out of control," he said, officers held back to avoid inciting more violence and having the crowd turn on officers.
- zghst 10y agoConservative fears are extremely true. People here, even educated people buy into the hysteria and go completely insane if someone has Trump gear on. It is worse much than the overblown situation in Arizona. You must not have lived in either places to really know...
- mce1123 10y agoI hear a lot of talk about regressive politics in AZ. What I see on the ground here is that people from all economic backgrounds can afford to work, live, and have a family. What I see up there is a set of NIMBY policies that restrict prosperity to the 1%. PHX adopts policies welcoming middle-skill, middle-income people and families; fauxgressives in SF Bay give them the middle finger.
- dmode 10y agoI lived 3 years in Phoenix. Absolutely hated it. Won't ever move there and I actually avoid it for vacations as well. The weather is atrocious. The weather is only bad for 3 months is a nice sales pitch. But let me tell you that it gets to 100 early to mid May and lasts till September. So that's 5 months. Also, April and October remains hot during the day. In addition, as the article points out, most jobs are entry level jobs with low pay. Phoenix has very few fortune 500 companies, so if you are looking for strategic and interesting roles and moving up the corporate ladder, it is non existent. And the pay is laughable. Other things I didn't like - in your face politics, extremd bro culture, few places to visit, no interesting startup roles etc etc, but you get the point