7 ms·

It's just slot machines with a more respectable coat of paint.

brightball 10y ago
This is truly accurate. You try it out and make some money a couple of times, then spend the rest of your time taking small losses trying to repeat the feat.
matwood 10y ago
Basically. Occasionally I'll trade the e-mini futures and have likened it Vegas without having to leave my house. All the lights, sounds, charts, order flow, etc... is just like a fancy slot machine.
pm90 10y ago
This picture is much more accurate than I would admit. I've seen many of my older relatives "playing" the stock market all day. Basically sitting in front of their computer, buying and selling stocks like a game. And that picture looked eerily similar to when I saw them in Vegas spending all day in front of those electronic slot machines.
mooreds 10y ago
Agreed! _A Random Walk Down Wall Street_ convinced me that asset allocation and saving regularly were the true ways to wealth in the stock market, especially if you consider $/hour of effort.
Someone1234 10y ago
If we assume day trading is gambling, I wonder what the house odds look like contrasted against other forms of gambling (e.g. blackjack, poker, slots, horses, etc)? I guess what I am asking is, if we take it for granted that it is gambling (and I am happy to do so) is it gambling with the best odds around?
- forgetsusername 10y ago
  >is it gambling with the best odds around? You can expect, on average, to perform as well as the market, less your trading fees (which for most of us small-timers are ~$10 per round trip). The problem is not knowing the odds (and hence expected earnings) ex-ante. That said, horse racing would probably be the best analogy.
- leakybit 10y ago
  I would say the stock market more represents a poker game with hundreds of thousands of participants. There is no house, it's a free for all, and day traders simply don't have the capital or manpower to survive.
  - bluGill 10y ago
    In poker there is a dealer: you are expected to tip the dealer if you win. In the stock market you pay the dealer win or lose.
    - alasano 10y ago
      In poker you pay the rake, win or lose.
      - ditonal 10y ago
        Depends on the rake system, in timed games this is the case but more common they take it from the pot so only the winner pays. But typically you win some pots even in a losing session so it's a pedantic point.
- notahacker 10y ago
  Blackjack, a casino game with unusually good odds, has a house edge of 0.43% You can certainly get brokers that'll accept a lower commission than that per trade, and if you're not hugely overleveraged the variance of your expected returns is going to be lower[1]. As with poker, the difficulty isn't so much the house edge as the fact there will be people or bots who are much better at it than you and/or have much bigger bankrolls to force you out of the market even if your suspicion they're holding a weak hand is justified [1]Your expected returns are also on average positive in the long term if you buy and hold rather than trading
  - yfhsjjskc 10y ago
    But does the broker give you free Pina Coladas?
- Kadin 10y ago
  There are "pari-mutual" betting systems, for instance the system used for horse racing in New York State, which are very market-like by design. Instead of an oddsmaker as in the European or Vegas systems, the odds on a particular outcome (e.g. a particular horse to win/place/show) are determined by market activity: the weight of bets on that horse vs. others in that race. http://thefinalwager.co/2015/04/28/horse-racing-parimutuel-wagering/ http://thefinalwager.co/2015/04/28/horse-racing-parimutuel-w... If you are honestly better at judging the ability of particular horses and jockeys to win races than the average market participant, it is possible (at least in theory, I don't know how many people do it in practice) to make money. However, the house "takeout" is pretty high; most places are 15+% on straight bets and can be more than 20% on exotic bets (Exactas, Quinellas, etc.). If not for the high takeout, it would be a very nice system for the bettor. The only time I've ever made money at a horse track was a time when I went with a friend who rode and owned horses, and we spent the entire day in the paddock area (not even watching the races), watching the horses and jockeys come in. She pointed out particular instances where she thought the favorite didn't seem likely to win, and in those cases I'd put down straight bets on the next-best favorite horses, essentially "shorting" the favorite. It worked pretty well, enough to get around the house takeout and almost offset the drinks we consumed in the process. Not exactly something you'd want in your 401k, but not a bad way to spend an afternoon.
fragsworth 10y ago
Is there absolutely no skill or expertise involved in it? I don't know because I haven't spent too much time studying it, but it seems a lot more like poker than slot machines. People who are better at the game should have an edge on others.
- gozur88 10y ago
  But with day trading you have the same problem you have with poker - there isn't any way to know if you're better than other people. Your advantage will be so small you can lose money month after month even if you've managed to tilt the odds in your favor. Worse, you can easily trick yourself into thinking you can make money on average after a prolonged lucky streak. In poker it's possible to be enough better than the competition that your advantage is obvious (to people who are similarly skilled, at least). I'm not sure that's the case with day trading.
notadoc 10y ago
Sounds about right.
stevenwiles 10y ago
Typical HN garbage comment.

This is truly accurate. You try it out and make some money a couple of times, then spend the rest of your time taking small losses trying to repeat the feat.

matwood 10y ago

Basically. Occasionally I'll trade the e-mini futures and have likened it Vegas without having to leave my house. All the lights, sounds, charts, order flow, etc... is just like a fancy slot machine.

pm90 10y ago

This picture is much more accurate than I would admit. I've seen many of my older relatives "playing" the stock market all day. Basically sitting in front of their computer, buying and selling stocks like a game. And that picture looked eerily similar to when I saw them in Vegas spending all day in front of those electronic slot machines.

mooreds 10y ago

Agreed! _A Random Walk Down Wall Street_ convinced me that asset allocation and saving regularly were the true ways to wealth in the stock market, especially if you consider $/hour of effort.

Someone1234 10y ago

If we assume day trading is gambling, I wonder what the house odds look like contrasted against other forms of gambling (e.g. blackjack, poker, slots, horses, etc)? I guess what I am asking is, if we take it for granted that it is gambling (and I am happy to do so) is it gambling with the best odds around?

forgetsusername 10y ago
>is it gambling with the best odds around? You can expect, on average, to perform as well as the market, less your trading fees (which for most of us small-timers are ~$10 per round trip). The problem is not knowing the odds (and hence expected earnings) ex-ante. That said, horse racing would probably be the best analogy.
leakybit 10y ago
I would say the stock market more represents a poker game with hundreds of thousands of participants. There is no house, it's a free for all, and day traders simply don't have the capital or manpower to survive.
- bluGill 10y ago
  In poker there is a dealer: you are expected to tip the dealer if you win. In the stock market you pay the dealer win or lose.
  - alasano 10y ago
    In poker you pay the rake, win or lose.
    - ditonal 10y ago
      Depends on the rake system, in timed games this is the case but more common they take it from the pot so only the winner pays. But typically you win some pots even in a losing session so it's a pedantic point.
notahacker 10y ago
Blackjack, a casino game with unusually good odds, has a house edge of 0.43% You can certainly get brokers that'll accept a lower commission than that per trade, and if you're not hugely overleveraged the variance of your expected returns is going to be lower[1]. As with poker, the difficulty isn't so much the house edge as the fact there will be people or bots who are much better at it than you and/or have much bigger bankrolls to force you out of the market even if your suspicion they're holding a weak hand is justified [1]Your expected returns are also on average positive in the long term if you buy and hold rather than trading
- yfhsjjskc 10y ago
  But does the broker give you free Pina Coladas?
Kadin 10y ago
There are "pari-mutual" betting systems, for instance the system used for horse racing in New York State, which are very market-like by design. Instead of an oddsmaker as in the European or Vegas systems, the odds on a particular outcome (e.g. a particular horse to win/place/show) are determined by market activity: the weight of bets on that horse vs. others in that race. http://thefinalwager.co/2015/04/28/horse-racing-parimutuel-wagering/ http://thefinalwager.co/2015/04/28/horse-racing-parimutuel-w... If you are honestly better at judging the ability of particular horses and jockeys to win races than the average market participant, it is possible (at least in theory, I don't know how many people do it in practice) to make money. However, the house "takeout" is pretty high; most places are 15+% on straight bets and can be more than 20% on exotic bets (Exactas, Quinellas, etc.). If not for the high takeout, it would be a very nice system for the bettor. The only time I've ever made money at a horse track was a time when I went with a friend who rode and owned horses, and we spent the entire day in the paddock area (not even watching the races), watching the horses and jockeys come in. She pointed out particular instances where she thought the favorite didn't seem likely to win, and in those cases I'd put down straight bets on the next-best favorite horses, essentially "shorting" the favorite. It worked pretty well, enough to get around the house takeout and almost offset the drinks we consumed in the process. Not exactly something you'd want in your 401k, but not a bad way to spend an afternoon.

fragsworth 10y ago

Is there absolutely no skill or expertise involved in it? I don't know because I haven't spent too much time studying it, but it seems a lot more like poker than slot machines. People who are better at the game should have an edge on others.

gozur88 10y ago
But with day trading you have the same problem you have with poker - there isn't any way to know if you're better than other people. Your advantage will be so small you can lose money month after month even if you've managed to tilt the odds in your favor. Worse, you can easily trick yourself into thinking you can make money on average after a prolonged lucky streak. In poker it's possible to be enough better than the competition that your advantage is obvious (to people who are similarly skilled, at least). I'm not sure that's the case with day trading.

notadoc 10y ago

Sounds about right.

stevenwiles 10y ago

Typical HN garbage comment.